Yurch's antics reach a new level!
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Yes, that's what I am thinking. More small optional choises makes things as a whole easier to swallow. (although I am extremely curious on how the ICLR is expecting to handle/standardize the existing dosen or so mutators packaged with inf already) AFA will hopefully set thier own standard for pub play at least. Match play is gonna be wierd though, if every clan has thier own config of gameplay-affecting mutators. I'm guessing we'll have to agree on something or suck it up and just play base Inf.spm1138 said:
You can overlap a few mutators to some sucess provided they are started in the correct order, but with playerclass related mutators you are pretty much limited to one as they will just replace one another. RA started out as a playerclass mutator, and since it was relegated to the AFA server(access at this time was difficult) for the longest time, I simply found it in the best interests to keep it as a single mutator with a set package name.
"1) I dislike the scope freeaim system in general, I find it too easy to maintain a sense of view through frequent motions (think jogging ACOG). It looks like a zoomed in view with a cutout being moved around."
I also agree, but i want a binoculars option in the loadout screen (bulk 2, i think). I want something to see if that pair of darker pixels is a enemy soldier at 140 mts.
I also agree, but i want a binoculars option in the loadout screen (bulk 2, i think). I want something to see if that pair of darker pixels is a enemy soldier at 140 mts.
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Yer. SOmething like the AA binoculars. Pull them out and they are held in hand, then aim as you would with any weapon.
Beppo
Infiltration Lead-Programmer
yurch said:
Not aiming for some toes to step on but I honestly don't want that another RA mutator 'fixing' stuff as you guys call it will ever show up.
Small mutators changing this or that ok, but nothing that divides a community in a whole.
And to all those guys that use the term 'I want' pretty often here... maybe make your own mod if you think you know how to make this stuff.
As you can see I try to stay calm but am getting pretty pissed about this stuff going on. Enjoy the damn game and if you do not enjoy it the way it is then go to your favorite store and buy something you like... and then piss in their cornflakes over and over again but do not aim for my froot loops if you get what I mean, period.
Beppo
These comunity rifts exist in almost every game. This is not an insult to game dynamics, but some people simply want things done differently. Yes, the usage of 'fix' is improper but telling them to join/make another game is not feasable if all they want is minor variations. I think they realize that thier suggestions are not for everyone in the fact that they aren't suggesting it directly to the team. Why do you find this insulting?Beppo said:
Regaurdless of this, there are some out there already who want these sort of mutators and I am not the only one able to create them.
If you want to discuss this in private, go ahead and hit me up in IRC or Email.
Beppo
Infiltration Lead-Programmer
This wasn't aimed at you yurch.
I just find it annoying that some people are so used to their rules and ideas that they directly start to call for someone to get them into the game they play instead of playing the game for a bit more and maybe to find out that the ways how things work are ok the way they are. Sure, we cannot please everyone but many here are starting to call for changes way too fast for my taste.
Mutators that add something to the gameplay, maybe adding new equipment or new game modes... these are things I would love to see. Maps in general and some with new ideas and maybe even some new scripting for getting this or that effect. That's all cool stuff...
But mutators and game 'fixes' that change a bunch of values changing this or that are only dividing a community into groups that want to play the original and some that want to play the new stuff.
Moding a mod is different than modding a game. Sure it is somewhat an honour to see a mod being modded (doesn't happen very often) but on the other hand it is almost a direct punch thrown at the developers of it if only a slightly different version of the original shows up then.
If you want to setup your own rules aso, then develop your own game types that use the stuff you want but do not change the existing ones. Add new weapons, but do not change the existing ones. Stuff done in much smaller sizes - as yurch already said - is way better than setting up a complex thing that messes up the original totally...
I just find it annoying that some people are so used to their rules and ideas that they directly start to call for someone to get them into the game they play instead of playing the game for a bit more and maybe to find out that the ways how things work are ok the way they are. Sure, we cannot please everyone but many here are starting to call for changes way too fast for my taste.
Mutators that add something to the gameplay, maybe adding new equipment or new game modes... these are things I would love to see. Maps in general and some with new ideas and maybe even some new scripting for getting this or that effect. That's all cool stuff...
But mutators and game 'fixes' that change a bunch of values changing this or that are only dividing a community into groups that want to play the original and some that want to play the new stuff.
Moding a mod is different than modding a game. Sure it is somewhat an honour to see a mod being modded (doesn't happen very often) but on the other hand it is almost a direct punch thrown at the developers of it if only a slightly different version of the original shows up then.
If you want to setup your own rules aso, then develop your own game types that use the stuff you want but do not change the existing ones. Add new weapons, but do not change the existing ones. Stuff done in much smaller sizes - as yurch already said - is way better than setting up a complex thing that messes up the original totally...
This is something I can't quite agree with. If I were to put out a mutator tommorow that changed significantly the entire inf aiming process (RA's original intended final outcome) that had a general positive effect on the existing gameplay, then by your definition it may just be a community splitter. If someone goes out and fixes something like the p90 sd overpenetration from 2.86, it's just a property edit. What if grenades prove to be too powerful and ruin the play on the maps I run on my clan's server? What if they want a modified ballistics scale? I have the advantage of being attached to a clan that runs a server, and often thier interests are the most compelling.Beppo said:
These are the sort of things some authors are undoubtably looking at. Sure new gamemodes are nice, but getting one off the ground and into a populated server in a disinterested community is no easy task. Sure, new weapons could be done, but then you need the coordination of several artists, and this is extremely hard to come by in a public setting.
Even with every mutator seperate, there will always be splits. We already run the nom203acog mutator on our server as well as some directional oriented ones. There already are the servers that do and the servers that don't, and the players that frequent different servers are usually already of different mindsets.
This IS the last infiltration for UT, right? What make some additions legitimate and others not?
Beppo
Infiltration Lead-Programmer
I'm not speaking about real bug fixes like the p90 stuff... these should normally come from the developers but you already know how and why this never happened.
Again, nothing against RA but it implemented a totally new aiming process as you call it yourself. Sure it had a general positive effect on the existing gameplay... but not for all players. So it ended up to become a splitter, yes.
I just don't want to see a community that tries to get used to a new game, with old and new folks within to face two or even more versions of the same game right from the start. This doesn't make it easier to build a community at all.
Adding new things, new maps aso does make it easier to get a growing community, not a tweak here and there that in the end divides between the different 'ideologies'.
We added a lot of options and mutators that allow server admins to setup more 'action' or more 'tactical' scenarios. This alone drives the different minded players to their specific favorite servers.
There is no need to revamp the whole aiming system, the bulk and stamina system aso aso right at the start. Let the community grow before you build an eight lane highway right thru them.
Again, nothing against RA but it implemented a totally new aiming process as you call it yourself. Sure it had a general positive effect on the existing gameplay... but not for all players. So it ended up to become a splitter, yes.
I just don't want to see a community that tries to get used to a new game, with old and new folks within to face two or even more versions of the same game right from the start. This doesn't make it easier to build a community at all.
Adding new things, new maps aso does make it easier to get a growing community, not a tweak here and there that in the end divides between the different 'ideologies'.
We added a lot of options and mutators that allow server admins to setup more 'action' or more 'tactical' scenarios. This alone drives the different minded players to their specific favorite servers.
There is no need to revamp the whole aiming system, the bulk and stamina system aso aso right at the start. Let the community grow before you build an eight lane highway right thru them.
I didn't mean tommorow literally. I'm content to do a grenade mutator and perhaps some other extremely minor stuff and leave that sit for a period while persuing some larger gametype or new weapon. I've got enough sense to know it is in poor taste to release something huge right off the bat. But later doesn't mean never, and I am already getting pressure to try and make such things from friends I respect. Serious playerclass-oriented mutators will eventually show up from somebody, but hopefully at a time when the community has settled.Beppo said:
Beppo said:
Next time, you can try make you own game, not only a mod. This, if you know how to make this stuff.
RA was/is a mutator. The mutator didn´t change the gameplay of Inf, you only had to quit it from the mutator list to play the original Inf.
And for me, is not so different mod a game that mod other mod.
" it is almost a direct punch thrown at the developers..."
a direct punch? Accept it, not everyone have the the same tastes/opinions. (surprise, surprise!)
Beppo is right in saying that it's too soon and that RaV3 now could be divisive.
OTOH, I think he needs to realise that for many of us it wasn't a choice between RaV2 and Infiltration but rather RaV2 and other games. I can't speak for everyone obviously and I know Woffen & whoever else did used to play both but then there are lots of players I think I only ever saw in Realaim servers (I have a lot of you in my buddy list on ASE). So most of us were a seperate group of players rather than a subset of the people who played on the vanilla servers.
If anything RaV2 expanded Inf's audience rather than dividing it.
I also have to point out that part of the reason I am happy to play "vanilla" now is because it "fixes" (or fixes) a lot of very big problems with .86.
If we hadn't had that massive wait for 2.9 (I consider 2.9 as a whole worth the wait, but there was some stuff in 2.86 I reckon could have just been band-aided) RaV2 would have never gotten as all encompasing as it did or gone through as many changes as it did and people who played it wouldn't have gotten into the mindset of "everything can and should be changed, just ask Yurch".
OTOH, I think he needs to realise that for many of us it wasn't a choice between RaV2 and Infiltration but rather RaV2 and other games. I can't speak for everyone obviously and I know Woffen & whoever else did used to play both but then there are lots of players I think I only ever saw in Realaim servers (I have a lot of you in my buddy list on ASE). So most of us were a seperate group of players rather than a subset of the people who played on the vanilla servers.
If anything RaV2 expanded Inf's audience rather than dividing it.
I also have to point out that part of the reason I am happy to play "vanilla" now is because it "fixes" (or fixes) a lot of very big problems with .86.
If we hadn't had that massive wait for 2.9 (I consider 2.9 as a whole worth the wait, but there was some stuff in 2.86 I reckon could have just been band-aided) RaV2 would have never gotten as all encompasing as it did or gone through as many changes as it did and people who played it wouldn't have gotten into the mindset of "everything can and should be changed, just ask Yurch".
Beppo
Infiltration Lead-Programmer
Turin_Turambar said:Next time, you can try make you own game, not only a mod. This, if you know how to make this stuff.
RA was/is a mutator. The mutator didn´t change the gameplay of Inf, you only had to quit it from the mutator list to play the original Inf.
And for me, is not so different mod a game that mod other mod.
" it is almost a direct punch thrown at the developers..."
a direct punch? Accept it, not everyone have the the same tastes/opinions. (surprise, surprise!)
Turin, you should watch what you say here a bit closer. I know my stuff, how about you?
Beppo, I know it's pretty tough to get all these negative comments on a product you released... ehehe as co-maker of RA286 I know this. It might not be the best time to say this but... although you did an awesome awesome job on 2.9, there're still some things to be desired. As you know one of the most controversial feature of RA286 is the 'gunsight' option which allows 45 degree FOV. Most people thinks this is a zoom feature despite the fact that on a typical monitor, 90 degree FOV is considered a 'wide view' display or zoomed out in other words. Racing simulator such as F1 2002 uses FOV of 60 or less because at 90, the track becomes elongated and distance will appears farther than IRL. IL2, the best WW2 flight sim, allows FOV down to 35 to simulate what real pilot should be able to see IRL. You might not mind this 'gunsight' option because it is an addition and not a tweak. Again, I know you guys spent tons of time just on tweakings, but there's still room for improvements. There're plenty floating in my mind right now, I'll go ahead and name a few (some already implemented in RA286)... soldier shouldn't be able to sprint uphill nearly as fast as on flat land... scopes allow too much FOV (the ACOG allows 7 degree, in 2.9 it allows atleast twice that much)... 40mm's ballistic falls way short of its RL maximum distance. Anyway, please don't take this as a complaining session, I'm just trying to justify why there're mutators such as RA*... and yes I (can't speak for Duke) do plan to make an RA29.
...and where would that have left the rest of us who didnt like RAv2? Quite a lot of people suddenly lose one of their fav games if the team did a "band aid" on 2.86 making it more agreeable to the RA crowd, due to pressure. There was/is a large majority of silent people who never come here and voice opinions against the Purple tide. So by saying that if only the team had made the game more like RA earlier it would make everything rosy just isnt right.
For the record i dont really care whether there is an RAv3. I dont think i'd agree with its style, but choice is a good thing to have. Also i dont think (at this stage, or even out as far as 6 months or so) there'd be as much support as previously. I'd guess that most of the people who played various versions of RA are now satisfied with 2.9 and those that are already asking for the game to be made even more "restricive" are the types who'd be better off playing chess.
I totally agree with Beppo and Yurch in that we should wait a little to the point that 2.9 has solidified as THE Infiltration. After that, I don't think that any RAv2-esque mutator should come along because that beautiful monstrosity turned 2.86 into something totally different. While I liked it and it was good, it got really out of hand from way too many changes resulting in that rift in the community we're already talking about. Right now, there are not that many ways to change INF so we are more or less a united community once more.
Kinda feels good to be playing the same game that everyone else is playing. To be playing the same game on AFA and JgKdo as MuF and INForcers.
Kinda feels good to be playing the same game that everyone else is playing. To be playing the same game on AFA and JgKdo as MuF and INForcers.
Can you clarfiy your point? I dont really follow. Are you saying that were all happy playing 2.9 now and therefore would have been happy playing a version of RA also? Please explain.spm1138 said:
I don't think any version of RA would have been adopted by the team (and I wouldn't ever expect them to). 2.9, while similar in some aspects, still is the team's take on doing things, not mine.