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True Scale 29

Discussion in 'Infiltration Development' started by TOAD, Dec 19, 2003.

  1. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    1st - who plays all 9 gametypes? the only ones played atm are EAS, Spec and TDM
    2nd - making all 9 gametype versions only needs you to copy/paste the same 6 lines of code 9 times... hard to believe that this is so much extra work at all
    3rd - The all INF browser tab will list your game types too
    4th - if you setup one more variable within the gametype then the gametype will be displayed with its proper name right at the start

    In conclusion... all I'm asking for is 5 minutes of extra work code-wise. Codes you only have to copy/paste once and I already scripted this stuff for you so there isn't any extra work needed on your side at all.
    All this argueing here only tells me one thing... you simply don't want to do it. Be it stubbornness or you simply want to piss in my froot loops for the next couple of weeks.

    Well thanks for listening but my limit is almost reached...

    Beppo
     
  2. TOAD

    TOAD One team...one life...one chance

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    I still don't get the idea behind a new gametype. A game type name is not going to tell a noob that the gameplay has been tweaked... "TS... What kind of game type is that... Take & Secure?" I like Geogob's idea because that makes more sense to me. Oh well, guess I'll just keep the mutie myself for personal use. I enjoy coding TS more than coming here to the forum anyway.
     
  3. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    a gametype offers some 'welcome' lines you can use to present your name and that the game is different and all that... and your game type can use 'TrueSights' instead of TS if you really would try to be a bit more willing...

    The idea behnd the game type is that a lot of folks here agree that it will be much more obvious than a mutator at the 5th position within a long list of mutators....

    and again :rolleyes:

    Beppo
     
  4. SaraP

    SaraP New Member

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    And who says it has to be two letters? The gametypes introduced by the "Excessive Overkill" mutator are named "Excessive Deathmatch", "Excessive Capture The Flag", etc. You could name yours "Toad's TrueSight Deathmatch", etc.
     
  5. Keganator

    Keganator White as Snow Moderator

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    Beppo, in all fairness, I don't see the reason behind a gametype either. He's not changing the game; he's changing how elements inside the game are used, like the weapons. For a long time, even Infiltration only needed a mutator because all it did was add weapons to the fray. This is what TS and RA did to the game as well; they use the same weapons, but in this case, modify the stats.

    The first time you download a 600 kilobyte mutator, you know *something* is going to be different. Even on broadband, it'll take a minute or two. Anyone playing UT for this long will know that a mutator that big is going to change something important. At this point, anyone playing Infiltration will have played some UT before...it just isn't going to happen like the old days, when people would run out and get UT just to play Inf. Those new players will then ask about the large mutator they downloaded, or at least be curious. In all my years of playing the Real Aim mutator, I don't know of less than two or three times a newbie wasn't greeted with "Hey! Welcome to RealAim" or something along those lines. For a while, even, I was practically an official greeter on AFA2. Being worried about the distinctiveness of Infiltration being misinterpreted is not going to be a problem in that regard.

    The biggest problem of making it a gametype is it will be instantly unplayable with any and all other new game modes, which by the mutie’s nature, it should. Even if he creates gametypes subclasses for each of those new gametypes, his package then becomes dependant on those other gametypes. He could create a separate mutator for each new gametype, but that would then create extra garbage that people will need to download in addition to the mutator, when adding a single mutator would be possible otherwise. If anything, TS and RA were Arena mutators, replacing all of the previous weapons with their version of the weapons. Arena mutators have been long supported and made for UT; this is nothing new. Getting upset over TS is like getting upset over someone using ChaosUT or (god forbid ;) ) that Goldeneye wannabe arena mutator with Infiltration. The only difference with RA and TS is that they're specifically designed to work with INF.

    Let me also remind everyone that RA, the mutator very much like TS, was released before Infiltration 2.86, and was used on the servers in less time than has passed now since the release of Infiltration 2.9.

    Then there’s also the issue of whether the gametype modifications actually work. I have not attempted making one yet and compiling it, so I have no knowledge. However, Yurch has not, from what he has told me and said on the forums, had success in making a new gametype show up as an “Infiltration All” gametype. I don’t know the reasons behind this, it could be something minor that has been done with his gametype that interferes with it, or the way it is classed. After I finish this post I will go and try to make my own and test it out, and will report back with my results. However, the using gametypes because ‘a information message about it is available’ being the main reason to use it is silly. The browser for Infiltration All doesn’t tell the gametype in the part that people look at (the server name), and the first bit of information that comes up when you join a server is the info lines that the administrators write. Every RA server back in the day stated explicitly what mutators they used, and that information popped up immediately upon joining. That information was in the server info slots, making sure that information about the server’s setup would be available at *any* time, not just startup.

    The biggest problem I assume most people have with this mod is the gunsight addition, and not the slightly modified gravity or the compensated bullet physics. In all reality, the gravity difference is going to be absolutely minor and for the most part unimportant. Toad, I’m sorry I didn’t e-mail you with my thoughts, but I’ll lay them out here and now for ya. I think the gunsight concept is just as revolutionary as free aim or iron sights were, and I think it’s come way before its time when most people will accept it or even implement it right. Just now, commercial games are starting to learn the joys of iron sights, but few have dared to take it further, or take out the CS level cone fire. For the record, I really like many aspects of gunsight. However, the implementation decisions regarding it make me not want to play it. Many times it was suggested that gunsight represents you ‘focusing’ upon your target, yet it can be used at any time. If it were restricted to only the same time when you actually look through the sites, I would be much more liable to think of it as realistically implementing the ‘focus’ part. Also, the zoom level bothers me. While it has been claimed to be a 2x zoom, doing measurements from the standard fov of 90 degrees indicates that it is actually a change of 2.8 times. If it were at all possible, having this reduced to an actual 2.0 zoom would be preferable, even if it makes the FoV some other number. As for the rest of the mod, I can’t say I noticed much difference. I didn’t sense a speed or stamina change as I was running around, so I assume nothing had been affected there. Any other changes you made were minor enough that it was not noticeable with the weapons I tried.

    Beppo, you’re asking him to create a handle class for a class, the mutator, that is already a handle class for weapons. TS doesn't change the gametype, it changes the guns and physics. Infiltration's original UT mutator did exactly that, and not much more. Toad’s mutie does much, much less.



    Basically, it comes down to whether you really want us to mod Infiltration 2.9 or not.



    Saying that a gametype is going to change the way people perceive the game is silly. Online players don’t choose their gametype, they only see what is on the list of populated servers. If a TrueShot game appears with people in it, or a regular game appears with people in it, it doesn’t make any difference for the novice. If you don’t want people playing modified versions of Infiltration, just come out and say it. Please don’t tell us it should be a gametype, or it’s too early. If that were the case, RA would have been treated the same. RA ‘fixed’ many things about Infiltration that Yurch thought were unrealistic, but they were always his vision of a realistic game. His release schedule for his mod was earlier than Toad’s, and no one had a problem then. If those kinds of things were an issue for the SentryStudios team, they would have stepped in when the first mutator like this, RA, was released. It may have been a different time, and an ‘incomplete’ game, but you did release a version with your vision. Now, a new version has come out, one that you have said to be your final vision for a game for UT.

    Does this mean your vision must be the final vision for Infiltration UT? Is this a Raven Shield situation, where we shouldn’t touch the code any further from its “pure” form? Or is this a UT mod, where people are allowed to modify the code into whatever their vision for a game is?
     
  6. SaraP

    SaraP New Member

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    RA predates Beppo's comments, which were largely in response to people beginning to clamor for an RAv3 for 2.9.

    Sentry hasn't said you can't modify the game; they've said that IF you modify the game, you should follow these rules in order to make it clear to everyone that it's YOUR version of Infiltration and not theirs.
     
  7. NTKB

    NTKB Banned

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    heh, beppo wasnt even the main coder when RA was released. I dont even think he was part of SS. I remember when Beppo became lead programmer, everyone on the forums was so happy for him. It was a good time. :)
     
  8. Shrap

    Shrap Beaver

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    What about the new weapons that the public can create ? Would they have to make their own game mode ?

    What about private passworded servers ? Can they run the mutator ?
     
  9. Keganator

    Keganator White as Snow Moderator

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    NTKB, RA was released after beppo became the man coder.

    But that was exactly my point; their 'rules' for making new additions don't make sense, developmentally. A gametype mutator indicates that the gametype has changed. It hinders the scope and range of any modifications that Toad might make. To load mutators, the easiest way to do it is not via a gametype class, but with the mutator menu.

    I also have several mutators I'm toying with right now, so you better believe the stance Sentry Studios has on mutators is important to me. One is a microbulk mutator, which makes loadouts many times lighter than they used to be. That will dramatically affect gameplay, for sure. I have another mutator that changes the way TK's are handled. I also am toying with a scoreboard mutator. Each of those has the implication that they might change the way Infiltration is seen, which is the reason that Beppo has argued for a gametype creation. At the same time, each is mutually exclusive in their handling of the game, and could be combined in any order. What has been asked is that because they change the way this game is played, they become their own game types. That effectively erases the fact that they could be combined independently. Sure, it won’t take long for me to create a gametype for each, but what if I want to use microbulk with TS? Or what if I want to use my TKPunish Mutie with my scoreboard mutator? Or, heaven forbid, have the long awaited weapons mutators be forced into gametypes.

    If it is the case that mutators that change the way the game is played must be set up as gametypes, we loose all of the power that mutators have given UT over the years. Unreal broke network compatibility once, specifically for mutators, and network compatibility between versions something the unreal series has much lauded as a feature. In essence, by having people make gametypes instead of mutators, you ignore the fact that the user does not see gametypes in the browser, only the server name and ping. They will still have to download the mutator, they will still see the server MOTD when they join, and they will still be greeted with, “Hello and welcome to mutator X game play!” messages from the players. Admins will loose every chance they have to customize the game the way they want it to be.

    In addition, I just finished compiling and testing the gametype code that Beppo created for us, literally copying and pasting the code (while making appropriate name changes), compiling the package, adding it to my appropriate lines in the INI, and testing it out. He was right; it took no more than the time to cut, paste, and recompile to make a gametype. However, and most importantly, I was unable to see my game subclass in the server, while a regular EAS game with the same settings would display easily. Unless there’s some workaround that some other UScript coder knows of, the gametype extension facilities in the browser do not work. I can see it and run the game just fine on my local area network settings, but extended games are not displayed. Unless a workaround can be found, gametypes are unfeasible, even if a gametype is what was desired.

    If gametypes are still the only way to go, and is demanded of Sentry Studios, they will have effectively asked that Infiltration 2.9 should not be modded. I’ll pack up my mutator bag and stop working on them, and be done with it. However, I do not feel that they are asking for us not to mod, just as you said, SaraP. I’d much rather not, since extending and enhancing game play for Infiltration has been a passion of mine for some time. However, if people still insist that gametypes are the only solution, that stubbornness will only cripple the small coding development community that Sentry Studios has towards their game.
     
  10. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

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    Good point. If sentry studios has further plan for Infiltration (or for another game), they'll need all the support they can get from coders like you, Keg, and Toad. With this restriction, many will simply stop moding and probably even stop playing infiltration because their passion, before inf, goes to coding.

    Perhaps SS won't need any new coders at all... but who knows. And this community must do everything to preserve the few coders, mappers and gamers it has.

    Good read Keg. Since I dont mod, I haven't see the topic from that point of view at all. Interesting.
     
  11. DEFkon

    DEFkon Shhh

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    Aftering thinking this over long and hard, i'm going to have to reverse my previous opinion and side with Keg on this. Making a mutator into a gametype defeats the whole purpose of the mutator. Something "small" that alters the play of the game. You should be able to use it and have it effect whatever "gametype" that your using. Eventually different people are going to make new weapons so you'll almost definetly see someone wanting to play using both XXX's 1911 in combination with someone elses G36 for example.

    That being said i think that real concern that needs to be addressed isn't if you like TS, if it should be made, or if it should be a Mutator or gametype. The real issue is making it clear that it is something seperate from INF 2.9 vanilla. The easiest way i see of doing that is plain old advertising. People Playing TS need to be blatently informed that they are not playing regular 2.9 and "word of mouth" via players is not what i would depend on.

    I'd recommend 2 things. First A message should smash the player in the face informing them that this isn't INF2.9 This could simply be done in the style of a Message of the day. Heck you could even go crazy and have a small audio clip play when a player joins saying "True space 2.9". Second i'd advertise in the scoreboard, and waiting to spawn screens. "True Space 2.9 a modification of Infiltration. www.whatever.com"

    I definetly think it's in everyone's best intrest to have SS try to find some kind of solution for this other than "don't do this please" cause that will only do two things. Drive away the independant Developers that will obide the wishes of SS, and the public would still face deal with the Dev's that won't.
     
  12. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

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    Yes, but I wouldn't put this message in the MOTD. I would put it in the mutator itself. If you put it in the MOTD, then this warning depends of the server admin. As I suggested before, a toggle for this message could also be welcome.
     
  13. NTKB

    NTKB Banned

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    I think in the end this debate is pointless. Beppo stated TOAD is pissing in his fruitloops. He asked him to make this a new game type. PERIOD. It doesnt matter who is right or wrong. This is Beppos child and Beppo can say what he wants with it. TOAD I like you but PLEASE just do what he wants. Eat your goddamn fruitloops in peace with eachother damnit.
     
  14. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    to stay calm now is a bit difficult cause what I said is already turned around right into my mouth before I even start to speak up here...

    anyway... I will state it again...

    ADDITIONS are more than welcome... so any form of additional weapon, statboard, compasses, equipment aso is more than welcome and can be used and implemented as mutators of course.

    CHANGES that are minor or heavier ones like tweaking some values here and there, adjusting what you think isn't correct are something different in the early stage 2.9 is in - release-wise.

    So, every adjustment that is presented in a more or less arrogant way telling the coder that their stuff is better or more real than the original will surely have a hard stand and will definetly piss me off if they are presented in that way. Calling a specific setup, a feature or some other things bugs or using another term and then saying that your super dooper mutator fixes this bug is very arrogant if you ask me and I guess I have the right to get upset if someone presents his addition this way. First thing that then pops up is that some of you feel to be always right in what they do and that it has to be right cause you made the needed calculations this or that way. Sure some real life aspects can be handled differently but why do you guys always think that the group called Sentry Studios with all its experience worked two years on this mod tweaking and fine tuning everything to then present you something unplayable? INF 2.9 IS playable, balanced and whatnot and you guys step up telling us we suck. I bet if you guys would have presented your changes in a different way then I would have never started this crap here. You pissed me off badly and so I reacted. And after checking your reasons for doing this or that I only got more arrogant replies. Sorry if I step on your toes now but for me it simply was an arrogant way... nothing worth the word argueing or even a discussion.

    Keg, your bulk mutator tweaker or whatever... I can only guess what it does but by reducing or changing the bulk values you directly change (or even destroy) the whole balance of the game. If you really want to play with five weapons slung around you then INF is not the game for it. Sure it can be fun to run around with all weapons in your backpack without being affected by their weight but then you no longer play INF anymore...

    Another thing... Arena mutators are mutators that exchange ALL weapons and ammo with ONE weapon and its respective ammo... that's how this works... not a bunch of weapons. Sure you can use the same technique for adding a full loadout (INF 2.9 features a simple way for this as stated already) but this is not an Arena mutator then.

    Oh and if TOADs additions are so minor that the ballistic changes aso aren't noticeable then I don't get why he actually changed something at all - so it is hard to believe that there is no difference Keg. But adjusting/changing the FOV, the throwing distances of the grenades, the 'gravity' calculations of the arcing projectiles aso does affect the games balance.

    And I cannot agree on the fact that making such changes an own gametype is messing up something... the Excessive example is actually a good one that it is doable and has no probs at all. And to name the dependencies as a reason for not doing it... ehem... all that it depends on is the CLASS of the gametype ... nothing more. You guys do not use anything from within the gametype, not a single variable and not a single function. So don't try using this as an argument against this.

    Do whatever you want guys... I'm sick of it... but don't expect any further support from my side if you guys cannot agree on a tiny little request from the coder that made all the stuff you are using and editing. I'm really not asking for much at all here... I don't ask you to invest all of your free time, your holidays and more for the next two years, do I ?! Nor do I ask for you to come here almost every day and reply to flaming and bitching people or argue with some that really want to discuss things or answer questions even if their answers can be found using the search feature or only try to stirr up trouble. All I'm asking for is a little, tiny change that is mostly driven by the way your changes were presented towards me.

    Not the best final words within this paragraph but I'm too tired to continue writing a novel here :)

    3am ... good night,

    Beppo
     
  15. SaraP

    SaraP New Member

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    You should release a 2.9 patch that gives anyone in game named Toad into a pink bunny rabbit, just like in that RealToon.
     
  16. TOAD

    TOAD One team...one life...one chance

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    Ok lets analyze how I presented my changes:

    True Scale 29

    Features/Tweaks:

    1) Optional 45 degree FOV mode

    Simply an added option

    2) New weapon bob system

    Hey, I don't prefer the constant perfect figure 8 pattern, so I implemented a totally random bobbing system. There're many way of implementing weapon bob. Key word here is "new" not "improved"

    3) Scope tweaks

    I prefer the scopes in TS to have somewhat close to RL specs (zoom power and AOV)

    4) Ballistic tweaks

    Values transfered directly from RA286

    5) Integrated rolling nade

    Had to be done to adjust throwing power

    6) Ricochet tweaks

    I like more ricochets, it was fun in RA286

    7) Adjust gravity to Earth's setting

    Might as well go with the good ole 9.8m/s/s

    So where is it saying that this is the elite form of INF? This is simply how I prefer INF. I do have the right to my opinions don't I? TS 29 didn't just pop out of nowhere or because 2.9 is so bad, it's just continuing where RA286 left off.
     
  17. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    TOAD you know that this all started in yurchs antics thread and even before. You managed to use words and sentences that in addition to the general flaming within the posts around were interpreted in not such a good way and I wasn't alone with this interpretation. Sometimes short replies can be taken the wrong way. Same for some misplaced rolleyes or whatever. I don't say that it was your intention to piss me off but you managed to get me to this point through the past months in some way. Maybe take it as a little splinter that was driven deeper and deeper steadily or the steady dripping till the barrel overflows or the last straw that then broke the camel's back. Again, I'm not saying that it was your intention but unfortunately it ended up this way.

    So, do your stuff as you wish but watch your wording a bit closer next time cause the barrel is still pretty full...
    In addition to my points maybe keep in mind to split TS up into several mutators to allow admins to use some of your additions instead of being forced to use all together. Even if your mutator allows to turn parts off by manually editing an ini file... single muts are easier to handle.

    almost 5am ... o_O

    Beppo
     
  18. MP_Duke

    MP_Duke Banned

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    >>You should release a 2.9 patch that gives anyone in game named Toad into a pink bunny rabbit, just like in that RealToon.

    Whateva, he'll prolly still pwn you :p

    btw Thanks Beppo for the reply, EAS-INF-DryWater will be released shortly :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2003
  19. DEFkon

    DEFkon Shhh

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    There's some stuff that i like in TS, and stuff i don't.

    I like the "gunsight" effect, i just wish it was a lower power zoom, and that it was a way of setting it to a hold key instead of a toggle. Actually i'd really like a way of getting it to work with the hold breath effect. I'd rather just getting a "Gunsight" mutator at this point.

    The new scopes aren't my cup of tea. I've gott'n too used to 2.9's free floating scopes to go back to something old fashioned.

    The altered gravity doesn't seem to be working out very well in some of the game's i've been playing. On the training map i was able to run and jump my way to area's no human would be possible of, espically with all my gear hehe. If your going to change the Gravity and stanima then i think you may have to address the whole jumping thing cause i was making sprinting jumps that would've put M.Jordan to shame.

    Did you chance the damage values or radius for the gernades and explosives? I couldn't really tell if it was due to the changes to overall gravity, or just my imagination. One of the things that i guessed was that INF's explosives were tuned down for gameplay reasons. I remembered reading the FM for the Claymores after playing INF and was surprised to read that the kill zone was actually much larger, than what i had found in INF. Again i wouldn't mind a seperate mutator for increased damage values and radius for the various explosives.
     
  20. TOAD

    TOAD One team...one life...one chance

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    Agreed Beppo, I've been coming to this forum lately with my shield up and my phaser on max power ready to battle, so little things turn into big things.

    I'll try to give admin as much options as possible running TS the way they wanted through INI. The biggest issue seems to be the gunsight's FOV, the problem is I have to caculate different offsets and zeroing of all the guns. When I see that values deprived from interpolations work well, gunsight FOV will be adjustable from 45-90 through INI.

    DEFkon if you want a hold key for gunsight simply bind this : gunsight | onrelease gunsight

    I'm awared of the MJ jumping ability. All I did was changed the jump power so that jump height will be the same as before, but with lowered gravity, hang time will be longer. INF soldiers jump really high now (if you watch it in 3rd person view), but this is how they "climb" stuff. This will be addressed in later version.

    No, I did not change damage or hurt radius of any explosives.
     

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