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True Scale 29

Discussion in 'Infiltration Development' started by TOAD, Dec 19, 2003.

  1. SaraP

    SaraP New Member

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    A flame is by definition a pointless personal attack. My words, while harsh, do have an actual point and therefore do not qualify as a flame per se.
     
  2. MP_Duke

    MP_Duke Banned

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    ^^ you need to step outta someone's ass, cuz you're just hemorrhoiding...

    M E R R Y C H R I S T M A S
     
  3. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

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    ---out of topic comment---
    People, people... stop it will ya. This nonsense is going nowhere. SaraP I think you have made your point here. If you are not mature enough to talk this over without jumping all over the place, perhaps it would be best that you leave this topic never to come back so with can discuss True Scale matters without having to read your unplesant and despicable comments. That beeing said...

    ---back on topic---
    Now, we have a new problem. I have to say that I basically agree with Beppo and I like the gametype idea, but Toad's final goal is, as he clearly mentionned, to make something totally independant of the gametype. Furthermore, Toad brought a good argument here and perhaps, Beppo, you could clear things up.

    Beppo, you asked that all major gameplay modifications are to be implemented as game types for the multiple reasons you have stated (new player confusion, server mix up, etc). But on the other hand, you have released 2.9 with mutators that drastically change gameplay as well. The only major difference I can see right now between those and TS is that they are made by SentryStudios. So does it mean that when you ask for gameplay changings mode to be put as new gametypes, you mean it only for 3rd party mods. I'd like to see your opinion on this. Some people here take your words as written rules powerfull enough to get someone banned. That beeing considered, I think you'd better clear this point up before it gets messy.

    Damn it's fun when everyone is right and wrong at the same time... it spices thing up a little.

    Cheers,
     
  4. Taque

    Taque Custom User Title

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    First off, Happy Holidays (this damned thread kept me awake into the wee hours of Christmas morn). Second, I want to congratulate Beppo and Toad (among others, of course) on keeping this conversation civilized, cool, collected and productive. Toad, you know I'll be there to test the beast out online to pick out the bugs. ;) I'm also very impressed with Beppo's conduct. INF is his baby and who can't understand that? Even through all the crap he's been through, he's always looked out for what's best for the game rather than letting his personal feelings interfere.

    I -do- have a question for SaraP and admins ... is there a "legal" (according to forum rules) basis for banning Toad on the gameplay issue? I presume (correct me if I'm wrong) that SaraP wants him banned from the forums for going against the word of the team and generally being counterproductive (in her opinion, of course). But after surfing these forums for about a year, I have seen much more counterproductive things posted from certain individuals. However, the all powerful ban has usually been withheld. I, as much as anyone, like a heated debate ... but there is something to be said concerning consistency and objectivity in the arguments.

    As a final note, I find the idea of "allowing" people to be part of a community is elitist and generally a step backwards not only from a gaming standpoint, but on a basic, human level. Perhaps in extreme circumstances this permission is warranted ... but this guy just wants to add something to a game he is truly dedicated to. Upon installing INF, Toad went immediately to the range and to empty servers to test out things with Duke to learn the game. Basically, to the "passionately opposed" out there, remember that Toad wouldn't go to all this trouble for a game he thought was pure, unrefined feces.

    Now, onto the mutie topic. What are you going to do concerning the lower levels of health during bleeding? Are you going to implement the blackout/convulsing thing again? And just out of curiousity, what is the gravity set to by default? It's actually quite a feat imo that INF feels completely natural without the good ol' 9.81 laying around somewhere. ;)
     
  5. Fenris

    Fenris [-I-]Fenris

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    I may be wrong... But... Am I in a CS forum? Apart from leet hackerspeak I find all other elements present...

    My two eurocents:

    - Server admins will see to it that this mutation gets put into the right place.
    - Moreover leagues will see to it that this stays the freak it is.
    - If SS, by means of Beppo, asks you to do things when fiddling with their software you'd better listen. It Is Not Yours. Never Was.
    - You do not really want to see servers running it be banned from the masterservers, do you?
    - Some people don't WANT everyone to play the same. It would take their unfair advantage away. They need it to cope with their puny lifes.

    So, guys, hug, be nice and cooperate. Do it the yurch-way, make something, be proud of it and let the community decide whether it wants it or not.
     
  6. Da_Blade

    Da_Blade Da sharpest man around!

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    Nobody expects the SaraP Inquisition! Comply or be hanged!
     
  7. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    some things... before I have to post some rolleyes again...

    - the ComicGuys and SlowBullets mutators are pure fun additions that a five year old can identify as fun stuff not meant seriously by the developers

    - the TrueScale ballistic changes aso cannot be easily identified as fun stuff not meant seriously by the developer/s

    - so, comparing these in regards to the "make it a gametype instead of a mutator" discussion is such a lousy argument not even worth the word argument... again a five year old can see the difference ... in TrueSight it is hardly noticeable that the changed ballistics were not meant to be this way by the developers... same for the FOV changes...

    - TOAD, who said that someone needs a scope for a range of 200 meters in this game... noone. Bringing this up as argument for your changes is again, poor.

    - in respect to the gravity stuff not using 'good ol' 9.81. This IS an engine thing... a native code part STILL active even in the latest codedrops for UT2k3/4. All calculations that Epic used for arcing projectiles are based on this 'error'. The usage of bBounce = True causes this error to show up and so every arcing object with this parameter set gets almost the double gravity effect than planned. However this parameter affects other things too and so setting this to false ie makes hand thrown frag grenades fly hundreds of meters without proper adjustments and the bouncing of such objects is affected too of course. So by setting this parameter to False TOAD needed to adjust the other values too. So, adjusting the stuff can be done using three ways... fix the bug within the engine (not possible for modders), adjust the values using bBounce=True or adjust the values using bBounce=False... no. 2 and 3 force a new system to be in place then that needs proper testing for balancing issues again. And I bet TOAD did not test this out fully. Sure, his argument of using the real world values needs no testing is sounding correct at first but isn't valid if you think about it a bit more. The UT engine is not reflecting nor trying to reflect the real world out there... it is a game engine designed for action paced games and not for real life simulators. So everything that you try to implement using real life values has to be adjusted to fit into this engine properly. This is not only meant to adjust some values here and there... you always have to take a look on the whole thing.

    - again, nothing against TOAD personally, but someone that states that he has no clue on how to make a gametype out of this, then not accepting the help I offered at all and then showing up here like he knows everything... well... who has more experience using this engine... you, TOAD or maybe SentryStudios?

    now let me place a :rolleyes: here... or maybe the big :D to avoid some sort of misinterpretation...

    Beppo
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2003
  8. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

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    Good, now it is clear. You're speaking of gameplay changes that are too subtle to see right away. That's cool and quite understandable.

    The blackout thing with the bleeding system was interesting! It was really in your advantage NOT to get shot ;)
    But with this feature, maybe bleeding should be a little slower. In 286, I thought the bleeding speed was good until the blackout was implemented. (alternatively, blackout could come in later).
     
  9. MP_Duke

    MP_Duke Banned

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    >>And just out of curiousity, what is the gravity set to by default?

    The default gravity Z value in a level is -950 unreal units(uu)/second^2. Using a standard scale of 48uu = 1 metre (used in the shooting range), we get a gravity constant of about 19.79N/kg :p which is roughly about twice as much as we experience on our pwn asses. But:

    >>The usage of bBounce = True causes this error to show up and so every arcing object with this parameter set gets almost the double gravity effect than planned.

    I think the double gravity is used as a compromise not only for gamespeed (as UT is fast-paced), but for FOV issues (at 90, objects on screen appear farther than they really are :p), so it "feels" "otay" :)

    In retrospect, I remember when Toad and I first tested out the gravity. Toad actually felt it was too strong (perhaps it arises from his ninja-istic nature). Toad likes flying :p
    Boy, if I ever told anyone outside of the inner circle the true secrets within ra286, I would be dead ahahaha... :|
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2003
  10. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    Sorry to say that but those values do not reflect anything other than their pure digits... you do not know how they are used within the engine codes, or do you?
    So using a value of 1.2 or 1 million somewhere would be still the same... a value, some digits... not telling you anything about how it is used internally. So the only thing you are doing here is making assumptions based on some values found within some parameters.

    Well actually an object using PHYS_Falling uses a simple formula each tick...
    velocity = oldvelocity + 0.5 * (acceleration + zonegravity) * timeTick
    and objects using PHYS_Projectile are not even affected by it nor using the zonegravity at all.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2003
  11. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

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    Interesting! So the way gravity effect is calculated for objects and projectile is different? or do you mean that for projectiles, the zonegravity is set to 0?

    Do they both converge to the same values for long distances?

    Does the UT engine use vector processing for 3D velocity computation or does the engine use your equation for every dimension at each tick? That would be a lot of stuff to calculate when you have a few guys spamming Minimi around ;) *wink*
     
  12. SaraP

    SaraP New Member

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    Like I said, I'm sure he meant well. However, it is wrong for him to refuse to make the changes requested by the team, especially since they are perfectly reasonable, trivial in terms of coding and do not limit the ability to change things through the mutator.
     
  13. MP_Duke

    MP_Duke Banned

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    I have some idea Beppo. I created a simple test falling actor to compare various objects. I adjusted the falling rate and timed it myself manually. I know how to carry out basic physics calculations of this sort, and conclude that the gravity value does reflect uu/s^2 analogous to m/s^2. Of course, I don't know all the detailed settings that affect this, such as the bBounce boolean, but anyhow, it all adds up to a rough estimate. I wasn't even arguing your point (your quote justifies why the gravity should be approx 2x, that's why I included it); I was only giving Taque an idea of what's happening.
     
  14. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    @Duke and others... no puns intended, really... I'm just a bit 'touchy' regarding the discussions going on here :)

    geogob, the velocity, acceleration, gravity... all things are vectors...
    nothing is set to zero for the calcs... the values are just not used.
    and yes... each physics mode does its own calculations... some use the same parts some not...
     
  15. TOAD

    TOAD One team...one life...one chance

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    Yes Duke you would... that bump on the back on your head is actually a remote activate explosive device rigged to the "windows" keys on my keyboard... muhahahah...
     
  16. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

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    ****! good thing I got no one rigged on my windows key! I kept hitting it so often in game that I had to disabled it. :p

    Beppo, just out of curiosity, is there any documentation on this? Could be interesting to read (and cold be interesting for moders like Toad too).
     
  17. TOAD

    TOAD One team...one life...one chance

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    Ok lets get straight to the point, Beppo doesn't want new comers to play on a TS server thinking it's the authentic version of INF. Sure I have no problem with that. He's offering the solution that TS should be made into a new gametype. I don't know about you guys but when I use the browser, I pick "Infiltration - all" and see where people are playing. It's not like we have a huge list of full servers right now, the average is around 3 maybe 4. My reason for not wanting to go with changing the gametype solution is there're 9 gametypes right now so I would have to make 9 new gametypes, that's just too messy and unnecessary imo. Also if there's a server that wants to run TS, I'm requesting that it should list TS29 along with other muties it's using. Perhaps a description through pop up message or the F2 info screen. The way it worked back in RA286 ( I used to play on a daily basis ) was that the vets would tell the noobs about the extra features and how to use them. The only server that might run the TS mutie is the BOB clan's if they put one up again. I'm sure the players on that server will have no problem informing the new players what's going on.
     
  18. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

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    Maybe you could put a message on screen at the beginning of each round saying something like "This server is running True Scale 29 Mutator. Please note that physics and balistics differ from the original Infiltration 2.9".

    Perhaps you could put a toggle on it so that it doesn't annoy hardcore TS player, but every new players on the server would see this message until they toggle it off.

    Would that be an acceptable alternative?
     
  19. [C22]-SpOOky

    [C22]-SpOOky Inf Old-Timer

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    I find it hard to believe that on a server running TS .. that the experianced players would stop what they are doing to explain that the server is running a Not Pure version of Infiltration Every time a new player (whos name is not recognised) Joined the server ...But im prepared to take your word for it
    But what if the server is empty ... and a noob joins the server with another noob who will explain to them ?

    I take your point that the players might explain to noobs that the server is not running "Pure Infiltration" But Not everyone reads the chat .

    I Often miss lots of chat while im playing but i know to open the console to read what ive missed .. however when i first joined Infiltration it took quite a while before i became aware that i could look in the console for chat that i missed
    I think Noobs have enough to cope with .. without having to read all the chat thats going on

    One more thing
    As you say,
    Most people use the All servers tab... So with that in mind
    Why are you still apossed to Doing as Beppo requests ?
    Wont that server Still get pulled in the All Infiltration servers tab ?

    Hes not asking alot .. Just that you respect the work THEY have done,
    and list your Edited version of what They have Created as a new gametype

    Beppo has remained calm thoughout and has Not slated you for Releasing this mod so soon .
    (even though he had alreay requested that no mods of this nature would be Released for quite a while)
    But as you Have Released "TS" this soon, Beppo made ONE simple request and He gave his reasons for it
    But still you argue against doing it :rolleyes:

    I Realy cant see why your Not willing to acomadate his request :(
    Unless you diliberatly want to piss on the teams efforts ?
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2003
  20. MP_Duke

    MP_Duke Banned

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    ^^ That's why i made a list of features with explanatory info previously, it's not my fault if you can't read fine print :p
     

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