Request to open CTF-Dagnys-Tubes-Of-Spam for comment

[WHIPperSNAPper]

The Prophet was right - the textures on the tube don't look aligned, they look slapped on by a noob.

If they weren't aligned then how come the tubes that lead to the blue flag room have such nice looks? The red ones? Why do the tubes leading away from the rocket launcher and ripper rooms have nice blue and red bands on them instead of having the blue and red band parts on the individual slats not connect smoothly with each other? (For the tubes that have angular cuts, the textures on the slats were not aligned together horizontally when I went to add the textures.) I really have no idea exactly what you guys are objecting to regarding the tube textures; I am very happy with them and think you guys are nuts.

I am sorry. But either you need to change your mapping style completely or give up. The question is if you are actually capable of changing your style and make good map or if you simply cannot do better.

I still totally disagree with your implied premise that Tubes Of Spam is a bad map. I agree that it isn't professionally-made, which I knew before the first post hit this bulletin board, but no one has shaken my belief that it's a good map both for overall looks and fun factor.

If I continue to build maps and don't improve to semi-professional grade and don't learn how to properly allign textures in spammy tubes and don't give up, aside from getting flaked in my own creations, what's the worst that could happen?

(I hope this is #100.)

 

[WHIPperSNAPper]

we arent comparing your map to professional maps, the majority of ametur maps have better looks and gameplay, hence why you score way below average.

I have examined a great many amatuer maps and I disagree that's it below average.

also, since when did "spammy" cease to be a derogatory term? its a bad thing. i could say "there is a section of players that enjoy default cubes so the fact you gave it 2 is unobjective". c'mon, that's nonsense.

It isn't nonsense in the same way that saying it's wrong to criticize a suit for not being a dress is not nonsense. The map wasn't intended for people who despise spam; it was intended for the large amount of UT players who do enjoy high body count spam maps. I fully intended to build a tubular spam map and you have to admit that it's far beyond a simple cube-shaped room and unadulterated rotated cylinders. My point is that such a map should be graded in the context of its value to people who enjoy high body count spammy maps and that it would thus be wrong to knock off points on account of the map's genre--small rooms, tight corridors. I'm sure there must be grades of quality, fun factor, and overall value within that genre.

 

[Mister_Prophet]

My point was that Mr. Prophet is clearly wrong to say that the tube textures did not require effort and that as a result his credibility and objectivity are at issue and that it's difficult to take him seriously.

I regard Prophet's review as a pure joke; it even carries an air of mocking cynicism to it and I'm pretty certain it was intended to retaliate for his perception of the author's having hubris.

Joke?

The only joke around here is you, your reaction to this whole ordeal is so stunningly humorous that I am even begining to think you just released this map for the sole purpose of getting a rise out of us. Any revierwer on this site would have given your map the same score, if you do not believe me, then ask them, and ask for a review at Unreal Playground and see what you get as a final score, UP is much more generous in terms of reviewing, you may even break a 30/100 there.


Mocking cynicism?

I was just as honest with my review of your map as I am with any other map. My comments were of what i generally thought of the map, I wasn't trying to mock you in anyway, your map is really just THAT BAD.

Retaliation?

For what exactly? I did not utter a single comment about your map, even after reading your whole speech about how radical your map was, and I remained silent even after I read all the negative comments. I judged your map after I played it.

Nobody here is trying to "rub you out" because we think we are superior.

Nobody here, except one of us, is a professional mapper, we don't regard ourselves as holier than thou art.

Nobody is out to get you.

We just think your map sucks, and we have all told you more than enough times why and how you should fix it. You got contructive criticism, both from my review and our comments, to continue with your inane accusations and theories on why we are cleary wrong, is a trivial pursuit.

If they weren't aligned then how come the tubes that lead to the blue flag room have such nice looks?

Nice looks? Are you Mad? NOTHING in your map has nice looks, there is absolutly no technical talent put into any of your tubes. I am no great mapper, but I can make those "nice looking" tubes of yours in about 43 seconds. And even before you rant, i am not gloating about my skills or whatever, I am telling you that as a fellow mapper. You really really really really really need to realize this....like right now.

It isn't nonsense in the same way that saying it's wrong to criticize a suit for not being a dress is not nonsense.

What the hell did you just say?

The map wasn't intended for people who despise spam; it was intended for the large amount of UT players who do enjoy high body count spam maps.

You may think spammy maps are awesome and cool, most UT players in the community do not and 90% of the people who venture to Nali City do not either. And your map is spammy to the point where it isn't even fun.

I fully intended to build a tubular spam map and you have to admit that it's far beyond a simple cube-shaped room and unadulterated rotated cylinders.

You map is NOT much different from that describtion, in fact you described it perfectly. Don't you take a dump in a box and try to tell the Baker that you made a truffle.

the context of its value to people who enjoy high body count spammy maps and that it would thus be wrong to knock off points on account of the map's genre--small rooms, tight corridors.

I wouldn't call your map part of a genre, more of a early attempt that is well below average for a CTF map. A map with small rooms and tight corridors is not the way to label your map. You corridors are unbearingly narrow, and unless you love spammy maps, your going to hate this map. A very very very small percentage of gamers for UT actually like this "spammy" style, your genre is a small server based goof game that is nowhere near ratable as an honest mainstream genre. You have pop, rock, rap and Hip Hop....your that homeless guy on the corner who makes a musical chant with a rusted spoon against a light post, hoping some merciful sap will drop a quarter in your mug.


I'm sure there must be grades of quality, fun factor, and overall value within that genre.

I graded your map on quality, fun factor, and overal value.

Quality= basic noobie construction with uninspired layout and technical achievement.

Fun Factor= Shallow and boring, gimmick spam trend grows tiresome within first 3 seconds of play time and evolves into disinterest.

Overal value: Very sub par.

 

[|ChAoS|Merlin]

You guys are totally right, this map is the worst amature map ever, I mean it really,really,really,really sucks bad.

Everyone please love me now. LOL.

 

[Zarkazm]

If I continue to build maps and don't improve to semi-professional grade and don't learn how to properly allign textures in spammy tubes and don't give up, aside from getting flaked in my own creations, what's the worst that could happen?

Sorry, my mistake. When I find out I suck at doing something I usually stop rather than continuing to do it badly; that would not satisfy me. But I forgot that there are indeed many people who are not bothered by their lack of skill. What you call semi-professional isn't professional at all, it's called "skilled" and usually the natural result of combining talent with experience.

So if you like making bad maps and if you find people who like to play them fine, enjoy yourself. Just don't expect us to appreciate the quality of these maps. We are elitist bastards who only play semi-professional maps kthxbye.

You guys are totally right, this map is the worst amature map ever, I mean it really,really,really,really sucks bad.

Everyone please love me now. LOL.

No, I hate low-quality sarcasm. Burn in the fires of Hell... DM-Helleth][ to be precise.

 

[Zlal]

I have examined a great many amatuer maps and I disagree that's it below average.



It isn't nonsense in the same way that saying it's wrong to criticize a suit for not being a dress is not nonsense. The map wasn't intended for people who despise spam; it was intended for the large amount of UT players who do enjoy high body count spam maps. I fully intended to build a tubular spam map and you have to admit that it's far beyond a simple cube-shaped room and unadulterated rotated cylinders. My point is that such a map should be graded in the context of its value to people who enjoy high body count spammy maps and that it would thus be wrong to knock off points on account of the map's genre--small rooms, tight corridors. I'm sure there must be grades of quality, fun factor, and overall value within that genre.

The thing is, there isn't a large amount of people who play "high body count maps". Most people play the original maps, few of which are meant to serve 12 players plus and few of which actually do.

I could make a really nice "high body count" map if I wanted, that had more quality and more fun factor.
I'm not sure about value... can maps really have value?

 

[Zlal]

I am not offended by you, only entertained. If you think that it takes angered effort to write these posts, then I assure you this takes 5 minutes of my time, which I can fit in whilst I wait for a download or a rebuild to complete.



I will now attempt to explain why the map deserves a 2.

The map works, and therefore is higher than a 0. It does show some effort, which makes it worth more than a 1.

We at Nalicity (I am a reviewer too, I'll have you know) are required to review the map according to a scema and even then must compare it to both ends of the multicoloured spectrum that is the mapping scene. At one end, we havbe maps that don't work. On the other, we have the maps that outshine the maps that the pro's made.
These maps require looks and gameplay, because to get a 9, 8 or 7 you need a good degree of both, whatever your view of the importance of looks and so called fun factor.
That you cannot argue. You need graphics and gameplay to tickle the balls of above average maps, and however you look at it, that makes sense, yes?

Your map has a destrintive lack of graphics, or at least any effort into making it look nice. That restricts it to a 5 according to my mental projection of the scema.
The map has some gameplay, though like others have said, it is not complex and has no "advanced techniques" that I could say add to the map. It has fun factor, like you argue. That is where the "two" comes from, from an view that the map must cater for all types of ut players. For the same reason that maps suited for campers recieve don't usually have high scores, tight maps recieve a knock.

Maps that have a high gameplay score usually have gameplay allowing for both types of players, or have gameplay that is impressive and you know but moving around it and fighting that the map has gameplay that has been thought out, planned and reworked many times to try and prefect it. That takes experience, which you don't have.


In your past postings, you seem to think that just because you and others like that genre that that genre matters more than others. That is not true.

You also seem to be thinking that as your second map it deserves a better score. This is not true. You don't get a bonus for that kind of thing.

There you have it, a reason why your map got a 2. You can argue, but if we are being stubborn, then we are no worse than you.

 

[Bot_40]

I'm sure there must be grades of quality, fun factor, and overall value within that genre.

I'm sick of people trying to use this argument.
Because by the same argument I could justify giving a subtracted cube + player start 10/10 becuase it's a perfect map for the genre of "Subtracted cubes with player starts"

And quit yer gaussian scale bull****. What would happen if you went into an art gallery and started rating the paintings using a gaussian distribution to 2042 decimal places? You get laughed at. And precisely the same thing will happen here

 

[Zlal]

Whilst I am still waiting, I shall add more.

I just want to know a few things. Ignoring these questions will only proove our earlier points of you being ignorant and arrogant.

A) Do you read these posts and take them into account or scorn them as you accuse us of doing to your map?

B) Do you actually believe that we are offended by your posts?

C) Do you really think we give two monkey's about your promotion? it was a little ambitious, but you are only in this "mess" now because you will not even talk rationally to us about the fact the map got a 2.

D) Lastly, do you take your mapping seriously, or is it just something you thought you'd do one day?

 

[Zlal]

Last comment for now.

The "comments" section of your map on the database is really humerous.

It sounds as if you are a sore loser - one who can't take critisism either.
Writing that the review the map was given and the comments were a joke, of all things, makes it sound like you have been bitten by a bee than you sat on.

I think you are the joke here, not us or Mr. Prophet.

 

[Bot_40]

k, I'm bored with this thread now. Me, hourences, proph, shad, we are all telling you as more experienced mappers that the texturing sucks, the lighting sucks, the layout is basic and not fun, the map has no gameplay whatsoever. This is not a personal insult though you will no doubt take it as one.
You now have 2 options and it's not hard to guess which one you will chose given what you've been posting before now. The choice is yours, I'm finished trying to argue through this thread.
1) Completly ignore everything we said, carry on making the horrible maps with bad texturing, no theme, no gameplay. You and your leet experienced ut players can run around and hold down fire on the flak cannon for 10 hours a day. Then that small 10% of the community can marvel at how amazing your maps are. Then perhaps you can moan even more when they all score 2-3/10 when you get them reviewed and perhaps start another flame thread and argue how brilliant and original the texturing is.
2) You can relook at your map critically, read tutorials on architecture, lighting, gameplay, sounds etc. Open other highly rated maps, copy elements from them then develop your own ideas. Get your maps beta tested, get feedback from other experienced mappers, listen to what they say and take their advice, and in the end create genuinly good maps that 90% of the commmunity will love.

People have tried to help. They've tried to tell you what is wrong with the map, and how to improve. You take it as a personal insult and reply with flames and arguments on how all the mappers/utplayers with 3 years experience are all wrong.
You try to convince yourself and us that your opinion of your own map carries more weight than all of the reviewers at the largest UT map review site on the entire net. This is the same site which due to the foums and community, has seen several mappers progress and eventually even get jobs in the industry.
It takes a lot of time, a lot of commitment, but if you want to throw away the chance of becomming one of the best mappers in the community then that is your choice.
Please don't come crying when your next map gets 2/10 again.

 

[Aggressor]

Look Dagny, if a secretary couldn't type more than a line in one minute, she'd get fired instantly. Analogically, if you can't create more than couple poly shape in a day, you cannot count yourself as an expirienced mapper, making decent maps. Like Houry said, making few subtracting cubes may be an accomplishment for a total n00b, but it means absolutely nothing for an expert mapper. I was stunned to hear that Tonnberry only spent around 40 hours to build Alpu2, but now a beleive him - now that I get around UEd3 with ease, I can set a complex emitter in matter of minutes (or whatever).

So please stop complaining about our supposed impudence - you just have no credible measure to gauge your work yet. Simply said, we here map a lot faster than you do.

 

[|ChAoS|Merlin]

I think I now understand how the Nalicity rating system really works. If an amature mapper of today can make a map thats a 10 on their standards, then it is far better than the most of the original maps from 3 yrs ago, taking this into account it would then be fair to say a simple arena style map like DM-Morbias which was made by a PRO mapper is probably about a 5 on their scale, this now means any map that rates over a 5 is really being considered proffessional quality work(unless you mean to say the original ut mappers are no longer pro's). So basically amature mappers are being rated on a scale from 1-5 and pros from 5-10, thinking of it that way I would say Dangy would be very happy to get a review rating as an amature mappper of a 2 out of 5.

PS. To the guy who made no sense at all, I did not say the UT2k3 maps had bad gameplay, I said the over use of detail and busy textures can cause many to disklike playing the game for long periods of time, the layout, flow, and playability is still great in most of the pro made maps IMO. Please ask Cliffy B himself if he starts with a theme or what he thinks will look cool, or if he actually thinks about the layout, flow, and game strategy and then adds a theme and coolness, If he tells you please let me know.

 

[Zlal]

I think I now understand how the Nalicity rating system really works. If an amature mapper of today can make a map thats a 10 on their standards, then it is far better than the most of the original maps from 3 yrs ago, taking this into account it would then be fair to say a simple arena style map like DM-Morbias which was made by a PRO mapper is probably about a 5 on their scale, this now means any map that rates over a 5 is really being considered proffessional quality work(unless you mean to say the original ut mappers are no longer pro's). So basically amature mappers are being rated on a scale from 1-5 and pros from 5-10, thinking of it that way I would say Dangy would be very happy to get a review rating as an amature mappper of a 2 out of 5.

PS. To the guy who made no sense at all, I did not say the UT2k3 maps had bad gameplay, I said the over use of detail and busy textures can cause many to disklike playing the game for long periods of time, the layout, flow, and playability is still great in most of the pro made maps IMO. Please ask Cliffy B himself if he starts with a theme or what he thinks will look cool, or if he actually thinks about the layout, flow, and game strategy and then adds a theme and coolness, If he tells you please let me know.

Yes! You are reading and taking some of the posts into account, however :-

Morbias is not a 5 - that's possibly one of the worst of the original maps. I would give it a 2.

The average for epic maps would be a 5.5, I think. Anything above that isn't professional - hell, professionals arn't the best map makers. If anything, they are prone to mistakes, and have never made a map that is IMO worth a 9.

The system doesn't rely on being prefessional or not. It simply stands for the quality of a map.

A 2 is OK for a second map. Most good mappers start out with poor maps, and they learn from other, more experienced mappers how to improve. Everyone starts somewhere.

 

[Zlal]

PS. To the guy who made no sense at all, I did not say the UT2k3 maps had bad gameplay, I said the over use of detail and busy textures can cause many to disklike playing the game for long periods of time, the layout, flow, and playability is still great in most of the pro made maps IMO. Please ask Cliffy B himself if he starts with a theme or what he thinks will look cool, or if he actually thinks about the layout, flow, and game strategy and then adds a theme and coolness, If he tells you please let me know.

Why would more details make people play less?
It increases the lifetime of maps. If i see a good playing map with bad visuals, and a good playing map with good visuals, I'd play the good looking one more simply because it's not a bland.

 

[lophead]

I always am of the opinion that the best response to idiots is to not give them one, but ohwell...

http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~insite/insite_review.php?reviewid=39 (I couldn't find Ruiner's DM-SubtractedCube review as NC doesn't have the unreal reviews up anymore).

One thing that I am against is new mappers taking review sites as a cheap route for their beta testing and initial feedback instead of going through beta forums. At review sites, we want finished (and polished) creations.

Another thing, it's usually quite easy to gauge the range of scores your map is likely to fall into. Before you submit a map for review, check out where other maps fit in the scoring range and you'll be able to see what score you're likely to receive (not what you think its worth).

"try to be more objective and understanding of the fact that not everyone has countless hours to read up on how to use Ued properly, let alone spent the time needed to make a pro level map."

Try to understand that reviewers also don't have unlimited free time to provide criticism/feedback/encouragement to the schoolkid who asks a question in class because he wasn't listening when the lesson was being taught.

 

[|ChAoS|Merlin]

So if I am understanding this right, you say a subtracted cube with mis aligned textures, no health, power ups, weapons or ammo, and no bot pathing is a 0, and DM-Morbias is a 2, but DM-Imago is a 7, your rating scale is really wacked and you dudes are a total joke.

 

[{MS}GroundZero]

Whew

Man it took like an hour to read that thread.

Bot....nice pics
One I look at and think nice the other I look at and think "ewwww"
You guys figure out which one.

Dags, you have always been cool online and supported me in maps like DOM-Dragons (which I think is in the review que here)....heh I can't wait. You have done much for keeping the DOM community alive which we appreciate. I play on the lagboxes so I aint complaining there.

But, stick with you other map the "big@ss" one. While n00bish and a first map, you spent time in the UP forums getting feedback and working it through the beta stage to make it better. TOS just doesn't have it.

I will be there to lend feedback and support as you venture on to your next project which you are probably working on already. I dare say these guys here would also be willing to offer feedback to help through the beta stages.

My opinion is release maps for the community not for yourself. Considering both mapper and player and those that fall in both. I have a harddrive full of maps I have started or made that were novel, cool-IMO, or something weird I thought but I would never consider releasing them to be shredded as they would and should be. I might open them up and play them every now and then and go "cool" but I follow that statement with "not for public consumption".

Keep on mapping don't be discouraged but take a page out of the UP book as well as here at NC, put your stuff in beta, get feedback, get texture help, comments suggestions, etc etc etc and if it still sux don't release it.

 

[Zarkazm]

So if I am understanding this right, you say a subtracted cube with mis aligned textures, no health, power ups, weapons or ammo, and no bot pathing is a 0, and DM-Morbias is a 2, but DM-Imago is a 7, your rating scale is really wacked and you dudes are a total joke.

Now that was well argued. We are left dumbfounded at your cunning.

But here's a tough one: Guess what a subtracted cube with 1 health pickup is? Yes, also a 0. Mind-boggling, ain't it?

 

[Zlal]

So if I am understanding this right, you say a subtracted cube with mis aligned textures, no health, power ups, weapons or ammo, and no bot pathing is a 0, and DM-Morbias is a 2, but DM-Imago is a 7, your rating scale is really wacked and you dudes are a total joke.

When I play DM-Imago, I see a lot more than misaligned textures amd **** item placement.

Imago doesn't have that bad gameplay - hell, it's better than TOS for sure. It looks decent enough too - It's miles ahead of Dm-Morbias though. Anything from a 6 to a 7 would have been a correct score.

Our rating sclae is not whack - the thing I talked about is only my mental projection of it. Go to the site and find the scema page for the real one. My one isn't whack either - prehaps, just maybe, that your tastes hinder you scores for anything other than your genre of maps?

Dm-Imago took a lot more effort to make than TOS, that is negating the experience of the mappers.