Lord Heisher said:
This is so novel; complete opposites of opinion, in a NaliCity thread no less, and no one flaming!
No, I'd have to say everyone has the opinion the map sucks. If not ATM they will come around.
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Request to open CTF-Dagnys-Tubes-Of-Spam for comment
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No, I'd have to say everyone has the opinion the map sucks. If not ATM they will come around.
you [the mapper] are really thick. all you did was click on one of the brush builder buttons, set the size, and press subtract. no effort at all went into the construction of this map. Seriously, compare your "map" to any of the stock maps. Notice the difference in the level of detail? The complexity? Hell, about the only map less complex than yours is CTF-AndAction.you really need to get off your soap box, look at your map, and figure out that the people you quoted are just trying to be nice, because your map sucks. No one with any siginificant amount of skill enjoys spammy maps.
You cant evaluate your own map. You simply cannot be objective. These critiques came from people who downloaded this map upon first seeing it, and not people who were following you all the way giving you false hope. just because you and a couple of your friends think it's a good map, does not mean it is a good map.
My first few mapping attempts looked like yours, but i recognized that they werent good maps and didn't release them. It's time you recognized that as well, and moved on and made a better map.
You cant evaluate your own map. You simply cannot be objective. These critiques came from people who downloaded this map upon first seeing it, and not people who were following you all the way giving you false hope. just because you and a couple of your friends think it's a good map, does not mean it is a good map.
My first few mapping attempts looked like yours, but i recognized that they werent good maps and didn't release them. It's time you recognized that as well, and moved on and made a better map.
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SirTahngarth said:
All I did was use one brush builder? No effort went into the map? No effort was put into choosing and aligning textures (see the tubes)? No effort went into the item placement? No effort went into the map's design and layout? It's little more than one great big box? The brush cutter wasn't used? The bot pathing wasn't built, tested, refined, tested, and refined again? Zones and location ID tags weren't added and HOMs fixed?
SirTahngarth has just given us one of the most blatant examples of unbridled intellectual dishonesty that I have ever seen.
SirTahngarth said:
What I find amusing about this thread isn't the debate over the map's quality, but rather the amount of almost religious ire and passion that it has stirred up. It's almost like I suggested that Tubes Of Spam was comparable to professionally-made maps, then reached out and stroked people's scrotums. I find it laughable that certain posters have their sensitivity meters turned up so high and that some supposed adults have degenerated into little children on a playground slinging mud, delivering insults, unable to carry out an adult conversation.
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Dagny, I'm not sure if you were serious in that last comment or not. If you know that the map sucks, then why did you release it. If you think it's a great map, then you must be smokin' something we're not. In either case, the sooner you realize a monkey's butt is better than this map and start learning how to map, the better off you and the rest of us will be. Thank you and good night. 
Bot_40 said:
I put a lot of time into choosing just the right textures for the beloved tubes and then getting them aligned the way I wanted them. I even constructed a huge series of tubes that extended throughout the entire length of the UT space for experimenting with different textures in the tubes.
How would you have done the texturing for them? I like having colorful surfaces and I thought they came out looking pretty good. What do you think they should look like? (Not trying to argue here, just curious.)
I've come to think that Dagny is just making fun of us. I mean, eventhough I've come across many such conversations on great many forums, I haven't had an opportunity to see someone behaving on one side like a five year old child who's had his toy car stolen from him and who on the other side so meticulously chooses his words of complaint. I mean, reading his statements gives me a picture of kids in kindergarten squabbling in an academic manner. So I am beginning to thing that Dagny is just having us in a kind of mental trainig or something...
Ok, in case Dagny is serious: look, we apparently don't like your map. And nobody else save for guys who run Annaction on their servers (and play it OMG) does. Face it. There are factual distinctions between your map and those that we here deem "quality maps", that you haven't adressed, eventhough you were challenged to (instead you went personal). There are theoretical and empirical standards that are set in the mapping community and your map just doesn't reach them in any aspect.
We're not arguing with you here in order to scorn efforts that you put into making your map, but to try to convince you to see the obvious weaknesses your map has and improve you mapping skilz. That is just the standard approach that this community has developed, as it yields best results.
So, Dagny, you have to understand, that eventhough you think you put a lot of time in deciding the looks of your map, expirienced mappers put it even more and especially use it more efficiently.
Ok, in case Dagny is serious: look, we apparently don't like your map. And nobody else save for guys who run Annaction on their servers (and play it OMG) does. Face it. There are factual distinctions between your map and those that we here deem "quality maps", that you haven't adressed, eventhough you were challenged to (instead you went personal). There are theoretical and empirical standards that are set in the mapping community and your map just doesn't reach them in any aspect.
We're not arguing with you here in order to scorn efforts that you put into making your map, but to try to convince you to see the obvious weaknesses your map has and improve you mapping skilz. That is just the standard approach that this community has developed, as it yields best results.
So, Dagny, you have to understand, that eventhough you think you put a lot of time in deciding the looks of your map, expirienced mappers put it even more and especially use it more efficiently.
Dude dont listen to these guys, especially Mr Prophet, he says a map is 50% gameplay and 50% atmosphere, and frankly thats just total crap, no matter how good a map looks, if it has no flow and tactical playability then its crap, I would rather play a one textured good map than a map full of atmosphere that sucks anyday. As far as nobody wanting to play spammy maps, well I do, and I think calling flac,goo,rockets,ripper blades, spam is just their way of saying " I SUCK" Have you ever played IMAGO? looks cool, sounds cool, but it has bugs and the gameplay sucks, How that fool got to be a reviewer I will never know. Check out the newer reviewers, most give constructive critisism of maps, not "The Prophet" tho all he ever does is slam maps. They say compare your map to the orignials, Hmmm I'm not sure but I dont think you got paid big bucks for making your map like Cliffy B did. What I find really funny about all this atmosphere talk is I play online alot, and most dudes cant even tell you what skin you use let along give a crap about the torches or lights in a map, mis-aligned textures ever look close at Deck 16? Anyway your map is good, could it be better as far as looks go, sure, but the gameplay will not change no matter how much crap you add.
To all the spam haters out there I'd like to say this, Are you going to cry "no fair you suck" when a hand grenade is throw into your fox hole? If you dont like reg weps then play insta or sniper match and STFU already.
PS. even with the bugs and crappy gameplay DM-Imago got a 7.0 lmao.
To all the spam haters out there I'd like to say this, Are you going to cry "no fair you suck" when a hand grenade is throw into your fox hole? If you dont like reg weps then play insta or sniper match and STFU already.
PS. even with the bugs and crappy gameplay DM-Imago got a 7.0 lmao.
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This thread just keeps on going and going doesn't it. First, Imago is still a good map even with the bugs. Second, even if you don't like the Mr. Prophet attitude, he does know what he's talking about as far as the mapping goes. Third, maps are 50% gameplay and 50% atmosphere; that's really the only fair way to review them (any variation beyond 60/40 or 40/60 is not right). Fourth, I think his looks and gameplay could be better if he changed the map (depends on how he does it, starting from scratch or not). Fifth, if he doesn't at least listen to some of the advice here, then his maps are going to continue to be slammed. Anymore magical advice, Merlin? 
I hate people who call themself "merlin"SkaarjMaster said:This thread just keeps on going and going doesn't it. First, Imago is still a good map even with the bugs. Second, even if you don't like the Mr. Prophet attitude, he does know what he's talking about as far as the mapping goes. Third, maps are 50% gameplay and 50% atmosphere; that's really the only fair way to review them (any variation beyond 60/40 or 40/60 is not right). Fourth, I think his looks and gameplay could be better if he changed the map (depends on how he does it, starting from scratch or not). Fifth, if he doesn't at least listen to some of the advice here, then his maps are going to continue to be slammed. Anymore magical advice, Merlin?
Mister_Prophet said:
I did align the textures in the tubes, carefully. I am very pleased with the way they look. My goal was not to adjust scaling so that each texture would fit completely within each slat nor so that the end of each tube starts with the edge of an existing texture. Rather it was to create the looks that they do have using portions of pre-existing textures.
Maybe we should stop induldging in his retarded desire for publicity and notoriety (sp?) and pray he'll undergo spontaenous(sp? god i'm dumb) combustion. . .or maybe i should shut my mouth?
And that merlin person, you're silly. I would much prefer running around in a prettiful map and improvise on it's gameplay (or lack thereof) than have to play a map with my eyes shut. . .
And that merlin person, you're silly. I would much prefer running around in a prettiful map and improvise on it's gameplay (or lack thereof) than have to play a map with my eyes shut. . .
I hate people who call themself "merlin"
Sounds like a personal problem to me Balton.
and I still dont see the 50% 50% thing, come on dudes be real for once in your life, whats a better map to play Codex if it was all 1 brick texture, or Morbias with flashing lights and go-go dancers stripping for you. We are basing our judgements on actually playing UT are'nt we?
My magical formula is something like this.
Gameplay and tactical layout = 80%
Sounds and music = 10%
BS decoration = 10%
Most great UT players dont even have the music on, and could care less about the "LOOKS" of any map.
From most of the people I have met I get the same reply about UT2k3, and that is it looks cool but all the detailing in the maps take away from gameplay and can give you a major headache if you play to long.
Can someone make a map that starts with game playability and layout and not a F*****G theme! Or better yet how bout this for a theme, a fighting area made for UT deathmatch competitions LOL.
Sounds like a personal problem to me Balton.
and I still dont see the 50% 50% thing, come on dudes be real for once in your life, whats a better map to play Codex if it was all 1 brick texture, or Morbias with flashing lights and go-go dancers stripping for you. We are basing our judgements on actually playing UT are'nt we?
My magical formula is something like this.
Gameplay and tactical layout = 80%
Sounds and music = 10%
BS decoration = 10%
Most great UT players dont even have the music on, and could care less about the "LOOKS" of any map.
From most of the people I have met I get the same reply about UT2k3, and that is it looks cool but all the detailing in the maps take away from gameplay and can give you a major headache if you play to long.
Can someone make a map that starts with game playability and layout and not a F*****G theme! Or better yet how bout this for a theme, a fighting area made for UT deathmatch competitions LOL.
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Dude dont listen to these guys, especially Mr Prophet, he says a map is 50% gameplay and 50% atmosphere, and frankly thats just total crap
No. A good Map should have good visuals and good gameplays to go with it, period. And a wise mapper, and gamer, would realize that visuals go hand in hand with gameplay, and a good map will have the architecture and design exist for the sole purpose of amplifieying the gameplay, likewise, the gameplay itself will be built around a very close relationship with the maps atmospherical layout. For examples of this see the following maps:
DM-Amon
DM-HyperBoreal
DM-Oiga][
DM-Aristocracy
CTF-Addien-dwy
and plenty more...
no matter how good a map looks, if it has no flow and tactical playability then its crap
Yeah, i've kinda been saying that from day one, thanks Wizard. Though, like I have also said many times in the past, the door swings both ways.
And no, this map has neither good gameplay or looks, so why you are posting your arguement, I know not.
I would rather play a one textured good map than a map full of atmosphere that sucks anyday.
Nobody is stopping you.
As far as nobody wanting to play spammy maps, well I do, and I think calling flac,goo,rockets,ripper blades, spam is just their way of saying " I SUCK",
Cute, very cute. Why does this arguement always have to go with the "you people who say the map sucks must suck at UT"? Where the hell did you pull that one from?
Have you ever played IMAGO?
A few times.
looks cool
No it doesn't.
sounds cool
Fair enough.
but it has bugs and the gameplay sucks
It has bugs, yes, and I've always been the first one on line to address them. And whether or not the gameplay sucks seems to be matter of opinion, some people like the map, others like you, hate it. I don't much like it either, the item placement is horrendus and flow is sucky.
How that fool got to be a reviewer I will never know.
I slept with NC staff leaders. The Prophet is a whore.
Check out the newer reviewers, most give constructive critisism of maps, not "The Prophet" tho all he ever does is slam maps.
Oh now that isn't true, I give constructive criticism, if you are smart enough to understand that it is constructive criticism instead of me just "slamming a map". Funny how my reviews of maps Like Aristocracy, Kenshin, and other good maps go completely unnoticed, and you "spam fans" only get on my case when I give a crappy map like Tubes of Spam the 2 it so obviously deserves. I told the guy what is wrong with the map, whether he listens to me is his call.
Most great UT players dont even have the music on, and could care less about the "LOOKS" of any map.
That is a laughably false generalization.
I did align the textures in the tubes, carefully. I am very pleased with the way they look. My goal was not to adjust scaling so that each texture would fit completely within each slat nor so that the end of each tube starts with the edge of an existing texture. Rather it was to create the looks that they do have using portions of pre-existing textures.
Dagny....give me a break, really. You did not align the tubes, if I decided to go into my sexy ued and subtract a cylinder with 16 sides, the resulting unaligned raw subtraction would be identical to your tubes, and that is the brutal truth.
No. A good Map should have good visuals and good gameplays to go with it, period. And a wise mapper, and gamer, would realize that visuals go hand in hand with gameplay, and a good map will have the architecture and design exist for the sole purpose of amplifieying the gameplay, likewise, the gameplay itself will be built around a very close relationship with the maps atmospherical layout. For examples of this see the following maps:
DM-Amon
DM-HyperBoreal
DM-Oiga][
DM-Aristocracy
CTF-Addien-dwy
and plenty more...
no matter how good a map looks, if it has no flow and tactical playability then its crap
Yeah, i've kinda been saying that from day one, thanks Wizard. Though, like I have also said many times in the past, the door swings both ways.
And no, this map has neither good gameplay or looks, so why you are posting your arguement, I know not.
I would rather play a one textured good map than a map full of atmosphere that sucks anyday.
Nobody is stopping you.
As far as nobody wanting to play spammy maps, well I do, and I think calling flac,goo,rockets,ripper blades, spam is just their way of saying " I SUCK",
Cute, very cute. Why does this arguement always have to go with the "you people who say the map sucks must suck at UT"? Where the hell did you pull that one from?
Have you ever played IMAGO?
A few times.
looks cool
No it doesn't.
sounds cool
Fair enough.
but it has bugs and the gameplay sucks
It has bugs, yes, and I've always been the first one on line to address them. And whether or not the gameplay sucks seems to be matter of opinion, some people like the map, others like you, hate it. I don't much like it either, the item placement is horrendus and flow is sucky.
How that fool got to be a reviewer I will never know.
I slept with NC staff leaders. The Prophet is a whore.
Check out the newer reviewers, most give constructive critisism of maps, not "The Prophet" tho all he ever does is slam maps.
Oh now that isn't true, I give constructive criticism, if you are smart enough to understand that it is constructive criticism instead of me just "slamming a map". Funny how my reviews of maps Like Aristocracy, Kenshin, and other good maps go completely unnoticed, and you "spam fans" only get on my case when I give a crappy map like Tubes of Spam the 2 it so obviously deserves. I told the guy what is wrong with the map, whether he listens to me is his call.
Most great UT players dont even have the music on, and could care less about the "LOOKS" of any map.
That is a laughably false generalization.
I did align the textures in the tubes, carefully. I am very pleased with the way they look. My goal was not to adjust scaling so that each texture would fit completely within each slat nor so that the end of each tube starts with the edge of an existing texture. Rather it was to create the looks that they do have using portions of pre-existing textures.
Dagny....give me a break, really. You did not align the tubes, if I decided to go into my sexy ued and subtract a cylinder with 16 sides, the resulting unaligned raw subtraction would be identical to your tubes, and that is the brutal truth.
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