Request to open CTF-Dagnys-Tubes-Of-Spam for comment

[Zlal]

Heh, shall me and you stop typing like we are posh gits and just be honest.

(Or do you actually speak like that? hmmm...?)

Look, you arn't the first to go through the whole "NC are giving me critique" process. Every time the "victem" decides he cannot handle the amount of people, or the strength of arguement, and gives a post similiar to yours.

All it prooves is that you havn't taken in anything. I do admittedly find this amusing. However, I have good critique buried in the nonsense and brutal honesty.

It seems to me that you still think we are joking, and that your own opinion counts more than others. That kind of thought get's you no where in RL, or so I've been told before. It's called being closeminded.

Now, look through it all again. Everyone has tried to help, and yet that help is repetedly thrown back.

If you have really picked up nothing, then you are likely never going to make many friends on these forums. Prehaps that isn't your goal.



About this "rift". There is a "mapping" community. However, there is not a "Play more than map" community. There is a selection of people, like yourself, that play small, spammy maps.
There are also the majority who have never d/l a map before and might not be interested in playing UT all that much. And there are neutrals too.

 

[Hourences]

lets try a short reply since now you arent answering nor reading anything it seems, 2 questions, a and b, pls just give them a short reply

A. you looked at bots screens ? pls tell us if they look better or not
B. pls explain how it can be that people like you who understeand the gameplay EXTREMELY well never get hired, and why us people who it seems to have no idea at all what makes a good map do get hired and make YOUR games of tomorow
pls tell me if that sounds logic to you or not

2 simple basic questions

 

[Frieza]

[...And if you are breaking your arm patting yourself on the back for your ability to criticize the good or the average for not being the perfect and thinking that you've made me cry or made me sad or shaken the intellectual foundations and confidence of my world view or UT-view (as many of you have gleefully bragged), or convinced me that I am wrong and you are right, or convinced me that Tubes Of Spam is worthless and that my ideas for maps are horrific, re-examine your own big ego and get a sling because you have not. I've been involved with hundreds of more contentious debates, both on the Internet and live and in-person, on more philosophical subjects with far better debaters and far more cynical posters; this one hasn't phased me a bit.]

We aren't aiming to make you cry or sadden you at all, we're just giving you an honest view of this map, and if youre convinced that your map is great just because a couple of people said it was great (Who obviously dont map themselves) look again. We dont have big egos, the only one here having a big ego is you, for thinking your map is great and does not deserve any score under a 7 on your Gaussian scale whatever, or a 5 comparing to all CTF maps out there. If you dont want to listen to reason, fine, stay in your dreamworld, this great CTF-DagnysTubesofSpam might even get you an job at Epics! Just like the great mappers in this community have acquired. But note: They actually spent time learning the editor. A map isnt just about gameplay (which is also not very good), its about the whole! A great map is a combination of various factors, Only if everything (Architecture, Texturing, Lighting, Gameplay, Flow, Item Placement, Botpathing) is great, it deserves a great score, and sadly your map doesnt convince in any of these points. Its only logical it receives a 2.

Unsurprisingly, none of the extensive arguments have told me anything I hadn't already thought of on my own prior to my first post (Prior to this thread I was fully aware I hadn't included any ambient sounds or light sources and that the flag base texturing wasn't amazing), nor has it shaken my own evaluation of the map nor my judgment nor how I value and evaluate maps. I expect that everyone else who has participated in the thread feels the same.

So now you even admit yourself that you have not included ambient sounds (I even think you dont know how, but if Im wrong correct me) or light sources, THEN why are you still saying your map has great atmosphere?? I dont get it for one. Atmosphere = Ambient Sounds = Atmospheric Lighting

 

[darth_weasel]

All this proves is that good maps can be heavily critiqued.

i was about to point out that you still arent listening and your map is far from "good", but then this is true:

You are a lost cause.

i would also like to hear your response to the comparisons in bot40's screens

 

[WHIPperSNAPper]

Regarding recent requests to continue the discussion, I'm probably going to end my participation in it since I've basically said all I have to say in principle, and I don't think further discussion would be insightful. I could address Hourence's two questions and Bot 40's screenshot comparisons, and we could keep debating this for another 20 posts, and we could go back and forth making snide comments and implying or stating that the other side is ignorant and foolhardy, but each side's basic response would be the same in principle.

I suspect that a good part of the disagreement and possible initial misunderstanding is that the two sides are "talking around each other", having a background in different UT cultures and attaching different contexts to the same words and concepts, neither side really addressing or understanding the other's meaning in a hostile, competitive atmosphere (the competition to say or demonstrate "I'm right, you're wrong, now admit how infantile and silly you are and how wise I am"). I could elaborate further on what I believe is the source of the disagreement and offense, and we could discuss it, and maybe at the end we'd reach some agreement and drink beers together, but for the present I'm satisfied to conclude that we have different UT world views and irreconcilable differences in our approach to UT value judgement.

Regarding the claim that "I'm not listening", that comes up all the time in debates and arguments (though not often leveled at or by me). It's a cheap tactic that's used to suggest that the other side is non-objective or dogmatic; it's almost a smear tactic. That isn't necessarily true. More often than not, and I'm certain in this case, the other side is probably listening and understanding what you're saying, it just honestly disagrees with you.

 

[Hourences]

-you just continued it by replying anyway
-that being said why couldnt you answer the 2 questions, regarding the pic and why you people never get hired

 

[Zlal]

-_-'
Sounds like you should stop reading the manual of how to argue. You would get punched for saying that in Real Life, you know.

The thing is, with that "tone" i cannot drop this. You are STILL failing to see the point.

Now, I want this end. I want you to answer those questions. Why?

Because so far it doesn't seem like you are heeding your own textbook advice, and that you deem yourself either higher or at least to have "won" this arguement.


I'm not trying to be hostile. I'm not trying to be ignorant. However you are too "goodly", too "I-Know-All" for my - and other's I guess - liking.

I do think furhter discussion would be helpful. Because the sooner we "bridge" this "gap" the better.

I hope you agree with me too - let's start listening, and not turning a blind eye to mour problems.

 

[Zarkazm]

you should study classic maps like DM-Scimitar to pick up tricks for your next map

*cough*

My goal was to build a successor to CTF-CarPark. People laugh at CarPark, and I understand the reasons why

No you don't, otherwise you would not have made a successor map.

HAHAHA!

 

[MassChAoS]

The map has been closed and further discussion, if any, should be continued here.

 

[difool2]

Throwing in my support...

The "rating" paradigm here would seem to be skewed heavily left, towards
the low ratings). I have no idea why that is (perhaps someone can
explain it to me). My own personal rating system is a strictly linear one,
with 5 representing average (no horrendous errors which render the map
basically unplayable, or maps which are just a rectangle with a few
objects here and there); I also put most of my weight on gameplay, and
play strictly with bots (so working bots is a plus for me). Perhaps there
are 1000 better maps-but there's 2000 worse ones (at least).

In other words, a "two" would mean that a mapper made some awful
mistakes with the bots, the architecture (elevators which don't work for
ex.), has large areas which see little gameplay, is much too linear, etc.
There are zillions of maps on this site which are that bad (or worse),
including the ones which don't work at all (the only situation where a
"zero" is warranted, IMHO).

Dagny's map has none of these _fatal_ flaws. It's biggest fault (spammy)
would appear in some people's eyes to invalidate everything else (again
I am biased in favor of gameplay and don't care much about visuals for
visuals' sake, and here's a free clue-NOBODY is unbiased!). Plus that
one goes away if you use non-spammy weapons (like Instagib or Tac
Ops weapons, WORM/Stuffswapper to switch things in and out), and the
multiple paths make that less of a problem if you aren't running too many
players. Otherwise the various paths make things exciting, as you don't
know what's around the next corner and you are constantly making
decisions as to which way to go next (do you go up the middle and try
for the belt or 'deemer-which BTW I usually replace with something else),
or stick to the side path (which I agree has too many vials)? I played
with some AK-47 mods this morning and had a blast with the bots.

The "Why aren't you hired by one of the major gaming companies" thing
is sort of a lame dig: the pleasure of sandlot over-35 baseball players
isn't invalidated because none of them are being scouted by the majors.
Plus the companies usually are overly impressed by the chrome as
opposed to the gameplay, so that doesn't impress me all that much (not
that stuff like Noork's Elbow isn't terrific-looking: but I haven't played
that map in months...).

All in all I gave it a "6" before the comments were closed: that is as fair
a rating as I could give it; perhaps a little generous if anything. It ain't
Chicoverde territory certainly, but nor is it the complete dogcrap that
some here make it out to be. >shrug<

John DiFool

 

[WHIPperSNAPper]

Thank you for coming to the forums and for interjecting some reason into the discourse, DiFool.

I mean no disrespect to Nali City and it's admins' decision, and I appreciate and respect the great free service that they provide and the uncompensated labor that goes into it, but I think it's too bad that the comments and user ratings were closed again because now we won't get to see all of those 5, 6, and 7 ratings that I predict would come in after the initial controversy dies down.

 

[Mister_Prophet]

There is no controversy.

Your map scores low visually because its appearance is on par with the lower ring level of mappage that we store on the site.

Your build score scores low because its design and composition are on par with the lower ring level of mappage we store on the site.

Your gameplay scores low for glaring unoriginality and simplicity as well as below average setup and execution.

That is the bottom line.

Thank you for coming to the forums and for interjecting some reason into the discourse, DiFool.

I suppose "reason" is subject to opinion it seems.

I think it's too bad that the comments and user ratings were closed again

I don't, in another day or two your map will be thrown upon the large heap of maps that nobody cares about anymore.

because now we won't get to see all of those 5, 6, and 7 ratings that I predict would come in after the initial controversy dies down.

You predict huh, I'm sure your buddies from GameBox.com are anxious to come and post their support.

Look, I don't care that your map sucks, it just is disappointing to see yet another learning mapper fade away because of an inflated ego.

 

[Hourences]

reply to difool

we cant help it either there is so much crap released, so yes many scores below 5
our quality level is high indeed, that a bad thing ? thats the whole point about reviewing

nalicity has a 9 as maximum score, 5 isnt the middle anymore

a map really needs bot support, but you can see all gameplay with just bots, bots dont play the game like humans, you never get the true strategic gameplay like real humans would give, simply said, yu can never see true gameplay when only playing with bots
a bot doesnt react to a sound when you grab a health vial, it wont get warned by it, etc

architecture is more then just an elevator that doesnt work
architecture is the style, flow, and shapes and execution of the building/area, this map does not have that

now you said yourself that there are a zillion bad maps, ofcourse you see a zillion scores below 5 then

yes could be better in insta, but you cant judge a map with saying it was made for insta ! no, the real game is with the normal weapons, and its made for that, if it doesnt work well with it, then it sux

yes map has 4 exits of the flagroom, thats good, but it are still 4 tiny sh1t tubes, your not gonna raise a score with such stuff

they look to gameplay and graphics, they want a good combination,
those people get hired because they know what they are doing, unlike mappers who make stuff like this
the only people who say that you dont need graphics seem to be people who have barely any experience with making games themself, and know absolutely nothing about the technical side, and related things
yet they really think they are damn right, what does this say about those people ? who do you think knows most, has most experience, and thus is most likely to have it correct ? who makes your games ? who creates your gameplay ?
stop being ignorant

you mention chicoverde, so you agree he knows his stuff, then pls go ask what he thinks about this map, and he will tell you that it sux

and to get back to the point of reviewing, if you going to use such arguments like, "but it does play well with mutator XXX or mod XXX", or "it was ment to be played for this type of player!" then you mess up the point about reviewing
your saying yourself that a simple cube with stuff in, would suck, and would get a low score
dony you get that there are also people, who argumentate on the exact same way as you did, but then on defending cube maps, because they find those type of maps fun
there is ALWAYS someone who finds SOMETHING cool, if you listen to all these people you would result in having to rate every map a 7 or 8 at least
that sux, thats not reviewing, why the hell are we still reviewing then if everything would get a 7-8 per defintion ? because those people seem to think they are right too, just as much as you
thats why there has to be a level of quality, perfection, and the way its ment to be, and not persons interprentation of the game #54785414854
this is about THE UT, not about your ut



you wouldnt have got any 5 6 7s, trust me, ive been here long enough to know how most people are going to score a map

 

[WHIPperSNAPper]

I would like to post a short, somewhat snide comment about the decision to close the map to user comments and to delete all existing comments, but I get the sense that I have antagonized or at least annoyed some of Nali City's principals and my experience leads me to sense that I may be skating on thin ice and I sincerely value Nali City's services and forums. Am I in danger of being banned if I make any further comments on this subject? If so I'll just put a sock in it.

 

[Mister_Prophet]

No you wont be banned, and you aren't skating on thin ice as far as banning goes. Snide away.

 

[MassChAoS]

As far as banning on the forums, thats up to the forum admins, but I doubt they would at this point. As far as banning on NaliCity itself, no, you haven't caused much trouble yet.

 

[WHIPperSNAPper]

Thank you for the reassurance. Here is the comment I was concerned about:

<Sigh>. Now we just have Mr. Prophet's review. I wonder, was the
decision to lock the user comments and to remove all existing user
feedback based on a desire to avoid entertaining controversy and to
keep it from clogging up hard drives or was there a fear that the map
might start garnerning favorable comments and ratings, much to the
chagrin of certain people? I'm sure it would have been interesting to
all involved to able to read future comments and ratings and to see
what others unconnected with the initial controversy thought. Now
we'll never know.

 

[SkaarjMaster]

Well, this is an interesting thread that someone at Insite has pointed out to me. Dagny, if I were you, I would seriously consider some of the suggestions of the mappers here. Some may be a little arrogant and their map review scale may not be to everyone's liking, but there can be no denying the fact that these guys know how to map. The tutorials at various sites would help you out as well. I agree with a lot of the faults of your map mentioned so far, except for the one about texture choice (that's usually a personal choice left up to the mapper that I usually don't comment on unless it looks extremely bad).

There might be enough gameplay in your map to attract many online players, but it gets boring very quick (quicker than ThornsV2). Insite did not review it for this very reason; Insite only reviews 3.5 or higher maps anyway. Using Insite's scale I would give this one a 3, NC's scale probably a 2-2.5. It's not total crap, but does need a lot of help. I have experience playing a lot of maps for UT and UT2003 (offline and online) and can tell you that this one will not stay on my hard drive. The UT maps are fastly approaching 1,000 on my hard drive and for this one not to make this cut should tell you something.

Also, just because a map gets a lot of online play does not mean it is necessarily good! This has been shown time and time again. I hope this convinces you to pay more attention to details in future maps. I look forward to your next effort.

 

[Lord_Demios]

I just want to reply to the gent quoting my Assault comment. I didn't say that the map ment a short game. I said it was fast paced. Assault is a fast game, you get to the point of conflict as fast as you can to keep people at bay. You defend the weak points and the ones that are open due to hammer jumping.

As for not knowing a spammy map, I guess your right, my little server has only hosted 1,174,100 games of UT in the past 2+ years.
(check the numbers if you want, http://www.thegamebox.net/stats/ut)

Sure, is Dagny's map up to your levels? No, I don't think anyone is saying that. Would it have been cool if one of you had taken him and shown him how to make the map better?

We all have to start somewhere, being a jerk about it doesn't help. Just look at the SPEWS guys.

Anyway, not trying to start a holy war. Just wanting to defend a quote with my name, and a friend who is learning.

LD
Owner and Admin of TheGameBox.Net/Org Servers.

 

[thebubba]

Dagny, first let me compliment you on your writing skills and obvious passion for the written language. It always gives me pleasure to read comments from the UT community that are not ridden with miss-spellings and poor grammar. I have the utmost respect for those with the creative talent and discipline required to bring to us, the UT "believers", the myriad of new and undiscovered maps that crop up daily on Nali City and other Unreal Tournament related sites with the ability to present them through intelligent writing (the forum is a fine example of this type of communication as compared to the often incomprehensible user review comments on Nali City).
Now on to the map. Dagny, do you work in public relations? If not, you should. The way you have hyped your own map is applaudible. I work in advertising. I know. However, the map pretty much blows. I mean...it's okay...but after reading the preamble, the game play is a downer and the look is, well, blah! And don't tell me about server playing vs. playing with the bots. I play regularly on our local crew's WOPRNYC server and host my own CTF games on the Bubba's Bad Apple. We appreciate fast maps for small groups (6 to 10), very often boxy, like Thorns ][, D-Day, Romra, and our own CTF-ForTheBelievers. The difference is that these maps offer a certain fun factor lacking in "Tubes".
Would that your writing skills matched your mapping skills. It's time to stop zealously defending your creation and build something better. The energy spent on wordsmithing could have taken you that much closer to a fine new map. Enough with the defense, already. Learn from criticism and show them your stuff.
By the way, I don't see how El Chicoverde fits anywhere in this particular discussion. Sheesh!!