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Request to open CTF-Dagnys-Tubes-Of-Spam for comment

Discussion in 'Nali City' started by WHIPperSNAPper, Aug 26, 2003.

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  1. WHIPperSNAPper

    WHIPperSNAPper New Member

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    Request to open CTF-Dagnys-Tubes-Of-Spam for comment

    I recently submitted a CTF map to Nali City and soon learned that the comment feature was locked. I know that the name might make evoke snickers, but it's really just an excellent map that falls into the fast-paced, high body count, tight map category alongside the likes of the popular Dreary, Gazpacho, Niven, Eternal Caves, and Burning.

    The construction is solid. The zoning is good, it's HOM free, and it includes zoned location ID tags. The bot pathing is very good, the use of textures is good, and the passages look great, many having their own unique texturing. The lighting enhances the textures and adds some atmosphere, and the item placement is excellent and works to balance the numerous path options. The map has a semi-intricate, symmetrical design and also features beautiful custom music. I have played it online against others several times and it is fun. People don't flee the server when it comes up in the rotation.

    I hope that Nali City will please reconsider its decision and open the comments and user rating features. If not, then in fairness could we please delete all comments and user ratings? It isn't fair for one person, the first user to comment, to have a monopoly on user feedback--it gives people a distorted view because they only see one opinion. If the commentary is locked, then the map's fans can't rate it and comment. I invite people in the community to judge for themselves whether or not it should be open for comment. Here is a download link:

    http://www.beyondunreal.com/dl.php/nalicity/utctf/ctf-dagnys-tubes-of-spam.zip

    I recommend setting up a practice game with 9 bots (5-on-5) set to the Adept skill level and 125% speed (to simulate real human opponents). You can also play the map online at this server: 166.70.124.87 or UTCTF2.thegamebox.net

    ----------------------------------


    Some comments from people who have played it online (posted in other forums):

    Lord Demios: It was quite a fun level Dagny. It was very fast and very action packed. This map really doesn't have the spammy feel in the critical areas. With four ways into the base, you can always take a different route to the flag. The game almost felt as fast paced as assault.

    Seven of 69: Even if you don't like spammy maps, this one is pretty to look at and features texture usage that I've never seen before. Tho inspired by Crap Park, ToS has much more attention to detail and all the tubes are color coded, so you won't get lost. Plus all your fav weapons and powerups are available. Dagny, I think that the premier of ToS was great! It plays surprisingly well and is far better than Crap Park. Plus it looks good and the color-coded tubes mean that you at least know your approximate relation to which base you're in. Also, once you realize that each tube has a different texture, it's easy to figure out where you are.

    Afroman: twisted map dagny! by looking at the pics, looks like there is enough maunevering room to get around some of the flak.

    ToWnPrEp: Ooooooo I like! It's very kewl looking, and with a small groups, this will be a kick @$$ map.

    [OSX]Spectre: Good job dags..I was pretty impressed. I thought the map was much better than carpark mostly because it felt larger, and well.. less spammy. It still is spammy, but not so much that it becomes really really annoying. Yeah, it doesn't feel as spammy as say command, or even coret.

    Shmanky: Like it because it requires a different type of gameplay than one may be accustomed to, making for a unique experience.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2003
  2. darth_weasel

    darth_weasel I won

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    i dont think you'd get comments as nice here as you do on unreal playground...

    particularly when you talk it up with phrases like "excellent map" :/

    *edit* i just played it, but ill save comments for when/if the comments section is opened
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2003
  3. WHIPperSNAPper

    WHIPperSNAPper New Member

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    I might have layered it on kind of thick, but the map does have a very solid construction to it. Objectively, as someone who has personally examined and rated over 300 maps and played hundreds more, I think it has very fun game play for its genre. I'm very pleased with how it turned out--great looks and it's fast-paced, action packed, and suspenseful online.

    I really don't mean to sell the map in this forum. I just want to get the comments and user rating features re-opened. My point is that it isn't a joke map and that it deserves to be open for comment, even if it's controversial because of its genre.

    My first map, CTF-DagnysBigAssMap, scored an average of 6 in the user ratings and earned a 52 in an Unreal Playground review, which is pretty decent. I think Tubes of Spam is much better than my first. My focus for Tubes of Spam was the online game play and not on adding fancy stuff like windows looking out into rotating space, track lighting, masonry, or a high poly count.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2003
  4. Bot_40

    Bot_40 Go in drains

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    This map is far from great. To be brutally honist, it's a bunch of cubes and rotated cylinders.

    No decent architecture? Check.
    Missaligned textures? Check
    Horrible texture choice? Check
    Poor boring layout which is fun for a few mins, but then gets boring fast? Check
    Unsourced lighting? Check
    Lack of ambient sounds or theme? Check

    Now before you go and argue against every one of those points/Unleash the flames on me, let me tell you that you can ask any decent well known mapper in the community and they will all say the same (DavidM, Tonnberry, Hourences, even CliffyB if you want :con: )

    Unreal playground has built up a bit of a reputation for being too "polite" to critisise any map harshly.
    Nalicity has the opposite reputation for being basicly, honist about a map. If a map owns, we say so. If a map sucks, we say so. There is no point in saying a map is something that it isn't. That just leads to over-inflated egos and flamewars (which is about to happen here).
    You can critisise this all you want, but at the end of the day, all the best mappers you can name in the community were part of/still are part of nalicity. And even by critisising nalicity you would just be backing up our own argument :p

    And I predict that you are going to reply saying that the map has amazing gameplay online (not against bots) and that visuals in a map don't matter if the map plays well. I warn you in advance, if you start trying to argue that this map has good gameplay you're in for one hell of a ride :p
     
  5. Zarkazm

    Zarkazm <img src="http://forums.beyondunreal.com/images/sm

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    Gameplay is provided by the game. That's why it's originally called gameplay I suspect. :eek:
    This isn't even a map. I could as well wrap myself in a piece of cloth and call it a cloak.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2003
  6. darth_weasel

    darth_weasel I won

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    oh well since this has become the comments seciton ill copy+paste my comment here


    there is almost zero z-axis here its almost all over one level. there were often 16health vials in a row which was odd. there is zero detail brushwork, you're either in a cubic room or a cylindrical(sp) tube, and there were no light sources whatsoever. the textures on the tubes weren't aligned either.

    the bots done their job though
     
  7. WHIPperSNAPper

    WHIPperSNAPper New Member

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    I apologize if my self-promotion has offended the sensibilities of the forum regulars here at Nali City. That was not my intent. I just wanted to explain why I feel the user comments and ratings section should be re-opened. I certainly understand people's visceral, negative reaction to this kind of self- promotion.

    My goal was to build a successor to CTF-CarPark. People laugh at CarPark, and I understand the reasons why, but it has received more online playing time then a great many other maps. I think Tubes Of Spam is better than CarPark in many areas--build quality, design, symmetry, texturing, fun factor, etc.

    It seems to me that when you rate a map, the overwhelming factor should be how much fun it is to play online against real people, which would factor in things like item placement, path options, and the overall layout, having better than functional lighting, basic looks, and perhaps bot pathing. I think that should be worth about 70% of a review score. A work of art that plays poorly online doesn't have too much value IMHO.

    I rate Tubes Of Spam as an 8 on a strict 10% distribution in comparison to all other CTF maps which would include all the crappy ones no one ever hears about or sees and where the top 10% of the maps earn a score of 10, the next 10% a score of 9, etc. I'd give it a 7 on a Gaussian distribution (where the overwhelming majority falls in between scores of 3 and 7). Of course, the map has to be judged within the context of its genre and the game play that genre tends to have. It's hard to take seriously someone's criticism that a tight, spammy map intended for 8 players is bad because it's full of spam with 12 players. I would hope that others would be fair and give Tubes Of Spam at least a 5 when considered amongst all the other CTF maps that exist. Since I'm tooting my own horn for the purpose of making an argument to unlock the comments and user ratings feature, I'm sure it must be very tempting to tear into me and to berate it and offer up such "honest" ratings as 0 and -1, but I hope that people will consider it objectively and without malice. I don't think it deserves to be stuck with a user rating of 2 and a nasty comment just because one person who looked at it doesn't appreciate it's genre and didn't try it online, especially when I know others who have played it online and enjoyed it.


    When I said "architecture", I basically meant overall layout and design, not whether or not brushes with trimmed corners and support bracing for the walls were used.

    I know you're trying to tear down the map as a negative reaction to my self-promotion, Bot 40, but consider what is there. The tubes have bends instead of just being straight; that must be worth something positive in an evaluation. The layout is semi-intricate. (Open it in the Editor, fly up above it, and look down.) It's symmetrical yet not overly simplistic and instead of just having passages intersect at 90 degree angles, paths often meet rooms at bent angles. There are opportunities for hammer jumps and boot jumps as a means of escaping with the flag; it does have some Z-axis.

    I'm sure the layout for ThornsV2, which also lacks Z-axis, gets boring very fast, too, yet that map has been canonized as a clan ladder map and players join servers for it, which is no small feat.

    I agree that there is some texture misalignment in the flag bases. I know that it's possible to see the bends on the sides of the tubes themselves; I think they look great and that I did a nice job with the textures and texture choices in that area. I agree that the map doesn't have the world's greatest texture usage, but it is far from being horrible. If the texturing were compared with that of every other custom map that's ever been made, I'm sure it would be no worse than average and probably better. I'm very pleased with how the tubes turned out.

    OK, but should that one detail be the entire basis for judging a map or even a significant basis? It pales in comparison to the importance of the online game play. I'm sure flag runners spend time thinking about the lighting sources instead of focussing on whether going to check on the shield belt is worth the risk of exposing one's self in the center of the map or whether the basement route might be safer.

    As for lack of ambient sounds--most maps don't include that and Tubes Of Spam has good custom music which is much more than I can say for many maps that don't have any music at all or that just recycle the standard music.

    Theme? Review the map's name. (Theme is another one of those things which are nice, but don't really impact how fun a map is. CTF-Terra doesn't have much of a theme, but it's also been canonized as a clan laddermap.)

    Someone mentioned the 20 health vials in a row in one of the central tubes. I would have preferred to have had a keg there instead, but I decided to go with 20 health vials because I felt it would be the best way for players to distinguish between the two similarly situated tubes. The location ID tags read "Tube of Keg" and "Tube of Vials".

    Flame away.
     
  8. darth_weasel

    darth_weasel I won

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    it isnt that really i think it would get the same ratings no matter what you said about it.

    you should study classic maps like DM-Scimitar to pick up tricks for your next map :)


    *cough* :)
     
  9. WHIPperSNAPper

    WHIPperSNAPper New Member

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    I thank whoever opened the map for user ratings and comments.
     
  10. Mister_Prophet

    Mister_Prophet .

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    My goal was to build a successor to CTF-CarPark. People laugh at CarPark, and I understand the reasons why

    No you don't, otherwise you would not have made a successor map.

    but it has received more online playing time then a great many other maps.

    This means what exactly? Loads of sh!t maps get the most online playing time, why? Because most people are stupid, which is why rap and pop music top the music charts, why 90% of movies contain lots of explosions and sex yet with no plot, and why gamers glorify crappy maps. Your argument about playing time means nothing in the matter of your map sucking as much as it does.

    I think Tubes Of Spam is better than CarPark in many areas--build quality, design, symmetry, texturing, fun factor, etc.

    I can think of 1000 maps that are better than CarPark too, and they are better than Tubes of Spam as well.

    It seems to me that when you rate a map, the overwhelming factor should be how much fun it is to play online against real people, which would factor in things like item placement, path options, and the overall layout, having better than functional lighting, basic looks, and perhaps bot pathing.

    Yes, of course that is exactly what it means to rate a map...and I did that. Your map fails in almost every category you mentioned.

    I think that should be worth about 70% of a review score.

    No. That is 100% of the review score.

    A work of art that plays poorly online doesn't have too much value IMHO.

    Agreed. But what you fail to realize is that a map with good gameplay but fugly visuals is the exact same thing. Visuals and gameplay of a good map should always be in equal compariosn and well done for the map to be considered good, and guess what, your gameplay AND visuals are both low.

    I rate Tubes Of Spam as an 8 on a strict 10% distribution in comparison to all other CTF maps which would include all the crappy ones no one ever hears about or sees and where the top 10% of the maps earn a score of 10, the next 10% a score of 9, etc. I'd give it a 7 on a Gaussian distribution (where the overwhelming majority falls in between scores of 3 and 7).

    K, what you just said right there is total bullcrap.

    Of course, the map has to be judged within the context of its genre and the game play that genre tends to have.

    Thank you, Professor.

    It's hard to take seriously someone's criticism that a tight, spammy map intended for 8 players is bad because it's full of spam with 12 players.

    It's hard to take seriously the fact that you don't realize how strange that statment is. you just described your map as "tight and spammy". Since when is Spammy a good thing? And your map is so tight it can even be spammy with 2 people, that is not cool.


    I would hope that others would be fair and give Tubes Of Spam at least a 5 when considered amongst all the other CTF maps that exist.

    I did, you still fall short and land a 2 rating.

    Since I'm tooting my own horn for the purpose of making an argument to unlock the comments and user ratings feature, I'm sure it must be very tempting to tear into me and to berate it and offer up such "honest" ratings as 0 and -1

    It isn't tempting, it is frustrating. You think we come online and say "gee I wonder what newbie mapper we can make cry today!". Actually not like that.

    but I hope that people will consider it objectively and without malice.

    I didn't say a single work about your map till I played it, my review is 100% objective.

    I don't think it deserves to be stuck with a user rating of 2 and a nasty comment just because one person who looked at it doesn't appreciate it's genre and didn't try it online, especially when I know others who have played it online and enjoyed it.

    Well, of course you want your map to get a good rating. But I played it online, I played it 7 times. 7. 7 Times dude. And there will always be that small crowd of people who will tell you your map rocks when it obviously doesnt and everyone else says it doesnt either.


    When I said "architecture", I basically meant overall layout and design, not whether or not brushes with trimmed corners and support bracing for the walls were used.

    Well, to settle it, your layout, architecture, and overall design all suck.

    I know you're trying to tear down the map as a negative reaction to my self-promotion, Bot 40, but consider what is there.

    Bot_40 is probably one the best judges of good mappage I've ever seen in this community, and he obviously played your map and told you why it isn't good. You just don't want to hear it, but it is being told to you by a number of people here. Unless we tell you the map rocks, you aren't really gonna listen.

    The tubes have bends instead of just being straight; that must be worth something positive in an evaluation.

    Whoa....holy sh!t....bends?

    It's symmetrical yet not overly simplistic and instead of just having passages intersect at 90 degree angles, paths often meet rooms at bent angles.

    Since when is symmetry something to gloat about? Making a CTF symmetrical is one of the easiest things about making a CTF map. If you made an effective asymmetrical map, that would be something cool, but your map...which IS overly simplistic, is just another brick in the wall. And so what if your map is at bent angles....what the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING?

    There are opportunities for hammer jumps and boot jumps as a means of escaping with the flag; it does have some Z-axis.

    Z-Axis doesnt count for shooting a translocator through a hole in a wall. Most of your map is on level ground without any way to view the rest of the map unless you go through *sigh* doorways.

    I'm sure the layout for ThornsV2, which also lacks Z-axis, gets boring very fast, too, yet that map has been canonized as a clan ladder map and players join servers for it, which is no small feat.

    No small feat? Pu-frickity-lease, if I took a crap in a paper bag and handed it to some clan ladder, they would cannonize that to, clan ladders suck ok. And if some clan punk wants to protest, sit down and shut the hell up, because you suck.


    I agree that there is some texture misalignment in the flag bases. I know that it's possible to see the bends on the sides of the tubes themselves

    Dude, every room or corridor in your map has one fugly misalignment after another.

    I think they look great and that I did a nice job with the textures and texture choices in that area.

    Imagine a vast desert. Imagine you are standing in the middle, talking, yet nobody is around to nod there head and clap hands.

    I agree that the map doesn't have the world's greatest texture usage, but it is far from being horrible.

    It's far from being mediocre. You have as basic texturing as I've ever seen, theres no difference between the texturing in your map then with DM-1on1-Turbine or CTF-AndAction.


    If the texturing were compared with that of every other custom map that's ever been made, I'm sure it would be no worse than average and probably better.

    I don't think so. No, definetly not.


    OK, but should that one detail be the entire basis for judging a map or even a significant basis?

    It is a significant visual basis that goes hand in hand with the gameplay and other design flaws.

    It pales in comparison to the importance of the online game play.

    Kinda like your map pales in comparision to the description you gave of it.

    I'm sure flag runners spend time thinking about the lighting sources instead of focussing on whether going to check on the shield belt is worth the risk of exposing one's self in the center of the map or whether the basement route might be safer.

    Yes, we all stand still in the open, inspecting the ceiling and walls of the map. Oh shut up.

    As for lack of ambient sounds--most maps don't include that

    And those maps have lower atmosphere presence as a result.

    and Tubes Of Spam has good custom music which is much more than I can say for many maps that don't have any music at all or that just recycle the standard music.

    They music track is palpable, in fact it is quite ok. Too bad it does nothing to redeem your map, let alone pull it from the festering muck pile it is in.

    Theme is another one of those things which are nice, but don't really impact how fun a map is.

    Ok, now your just being stupid. Theme is one of the most important aspects of a good map. A map needs a sense of location for it to be interesting to play in.

    CTF-Terra doesn't have much of a theme, but it's also been canonized as a clan laddermap.

    Your map is a long way from being CTF-Terra. And yes, there is an obvious theme in Terra, something which cannot be said about your map.

    Someone mentioned the 20 health vials in a row in one of the central tubes. I would have preferred to have had a keg there instead, but I decided to go with 20 health vials because I felt it would be the best way for players to distinguish between the two similarly situated tubes.

    Thats like saying, "I'm making a sequel to Highlander, should I call it Highlander 2: The Quickening, or Highlander: What the Fu<k."


    And no, this isn't flame. But I'm sure your feeling the Burn anyway.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2003
  11. WHIPperSNAPper

    WHIPperSNAPper New Member

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    All this proves is that good maps can be heavily critiqued. If someone is predetermined to smear a decent map as part of a flame war or as part of a visceral reaction to promotion (or to defensive responses to unfair negative feedback that resulted from the aforementioned visceral reaction to promotion) (as much as they might deny it), it's not hard to do. It's interesting that a map could inspire such passion; it isn't the map; it's a visceral reaction to its promotion.

    No amount of negative commentary will trump my own first-hand judgment and experience. I am convinced that, objectively, it's a great map for online play. Of course, people who prefer more open maps won't like it, which is fine. Criticizing a suit for its not being a dress doesn't make it a bad suit. I'm pretty confident that the substantial portion of the UT community that enjoys fast-paced, high body count maps will like it in spite of the fact that the textures aren't perfect (though they sure do look good in the tubes) and that it lacks ambient sound and sourced lighting. You almost make it sound like there's something illegitimate about the tastes of people who prefer that style of game play and those types of maps.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2003
  12. Mister_Prophet

    Mister_Prophet .

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    You are a lost cause.
     
  13. Hourences

    Hourences New Member

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    you still dont get it

    the review was 100 procent fair, honest, and correct ! it was in no way ment to be a joke, or to break down a "good" map because we are jealous or whatever

    the map is R E A L L Y, H O N E S T L Y bad
    its not near avg, even we forget all this grpahic stuff, and just look at the gameplay,its still 8000 million miles from being avg

    and if you like to work with statistics that much, not 30 procent of the maps get a score below 3, but around 75 procent of them does, so considering that number, your map is pretty normal,
    be happy you made a normal map :)

    there is a perfect form of gameplay, the form were the game was made for, its that form thats being judged, not your own made style or twist to the game
    if we are going to keep such things in mind the whole point about reviewing is gone, because you wouldnt be able to say anything bad at all about the map becuase person #2745574 MIGHT like that specific style even tho you know its horrible
    we judge it on perfection and quality, and unlike a lot of people think thats 75 procent objectivly, i dont give a flying **** if i like purple as a color or not, i simply know it will not work in 98 procent of the maps that excist, and if i would break down a map on the purple light that would be purely based on knowledge and judging and not my personal preference
    same for all the other stuff, and your map is not quality or anywhere near it, objectivly saw, based on knowledge

    and for in case you dont believe the game was made for real gameplay, then pls explain why the ut demo had maps like ctf coret, dm phobos, dm turbine etc, those maps werent graphically mind blowing, no they had some very nice gameplay, with quite a lot of thought behind
    excatly that was the reason those maps were choosen to show people the gameplay in the game, that was how it ment to be
    go ask cliffyb if you dont believe me

    and lastly, pls DO explain, why if people like you, and people who make maps like ctf thorns, NEVER get hired at companies ? you people seem to know A LOT about gameplay and fun, yet no one wants to hire you people, thats just damn strange
     
  14. Zlal

    Zlal New but not improved.

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    My goal was to build a successor to CTF-CarPark. People laugh at CarPark, and I understand the reasons why

    Obviously you don't understand these reasons. If your goal is to try and make a map that is laughed at better, then your end result will likely be laughed at too, for it's attempt to better a bad map.

    but it has received more online playing time then a great many other maps.

    So have the maps that came with the game. That is because of simplicity and the fact that 90% of UT players don't know you can d/l maps.
    "Tubes" has recieved lots of online play because you have gone around many forums getting publicity. Nothing wrong with that.
    However, the way that you are advertizing the map comes across as "force feed". I would try and better this, otherwise people will accuse you of having a ego the size of my ePenis.

    I think Tubes Of Spam is better than CarPark in many areas--build quality, design, symmetry, texturing, fun factor, etc.

    That is your opinion. Having not played CarPark, I cannot comment. however saying your own map is better than another map is not entirely credable now, when you think about it.

    It seems to me that when you rate a map, the overwhelming factor should be how much fun it is to play online against real people, which would factor in things like item placement, path options, and the overall layout, having better than functional lighting, basic looks, and perhaps bot pathing.

    Why? Why, Why Why?
    The honest truth is that map do not get played online by lots of people. They get downloaded by people who look for maps. Hey, mapping sucks when you honestly think about it. You might think you are lucky that a few clan fags are playing you map, but you forgot about the other 99% of players who just connect to the internet and think "Hmmm.... can you play UT online?" and do so. Your map does not "own" - it hasn't been noticed by many people when you honestly think about it.

    Fair enough, great maps have recieved less attention than yours. However, most of these great maps, by mappers such as DavidM, Hourences, Ulukai, Tonnberry etc. don't need puplicity. Why, you might ask.
    Their maps get the attention that counts. That is, professional attention. This map will not get serious professional attention - this map is not excellant, not great. This means that the map should lie below a 7 or 6 at least, judging the current mapping scene and review averages around.

    I think that should be worth about 70% of a review score.

    Many would disagree with you. Some would agree. At the end of the day, that statement could be as bull**** as the review and comments that you complained about, or could be as credable as them.

    A work of art that plays poorly online doesn't have too much value IMHO.

    It has exactly the same value as :-
    An average map.
    A map that has good gameplay but bad looks.
    A decent map will lots of flaws.
    A map with no puplicity.

    I rate Tubes Of Spam as an 8 on a strict 10% distribution in comparison to all other CTF maps which would include all the crappy ones no one ever hears about or sees and where the top 10% of the maps earn a score of 10, the next 10% a score of 9, etc. I'd give it a 7 on a Gaussian distribution (where the overwhelming majority falls in between scores of 3 and 7).

    I will flame in this following paragraphs.

    You had an idea. "I'll be clever so they think that I know more than them and that I am right!"
    So, you cooked up some cool sounding bull****. I don't understand it much, and I don't think many others do - the point is that is reads like bull****.

    Actaully, I read that a couple of times. You attempt to proove that you map is a 7 using distribution percentages.
    However, you poove nothing. For all the attempted cleverness, it is still a score that you gave it youself. There is no proof. There is no evidence for a 7. Indeed, all you succeded in doing is typing a paragraph of utter bull**** that makes you look slightly foolish.
    So, hey, Let's all be bull****ters!

    Of course, the map has to be judged within the context of its genre and the game play that genre tends to have.

    It was, as far as I can tell.

    It's hard to take seriously someone's criticism that a tight, spammy map intended for 8 players is bad because it's full of spam with 12 players.

    It may be elaborately decorated with nice shades of attempted thought reversal, but this is in fact still bull****.


    I would hope that others would be fair and give Tubes Of Spam at least a 5 when considered amongst all the other CTF maps that exist.

    No. You hope your map gets a good score. Come on, be honest.

    Since I'm tooting my own horn for the purpose of making an argument to unlock the comments and user ratings feature, I'm sure it must be very tempting to tear into me and to berate it and offer up such "honest" ratings as 0 and -1

    Oh, it is tempting. You see, you arn't unique. Every few months someone like you blows up his ego bubble just a little too far - so far, in fact, that they start blowing up the map's hype until some veteran puts them down.
    What happens then is that it comes to a forum. Many people agree with the lower score rather than the mapper, and it boils, heating up until a great number of threads entail, many closed, many simply peatering out.
    Every time it is the same. Every time it is remembered as a classic moment.

    You see, it is quite fun reading what a someone with a big ego comes out with. All that **** about distributions and percentages above. The amount of effort, the amount of pain that they go through trying to defend their map from the hungry pack of wolves that is the majority.
    And yet they often come back for more. More ****, more spam, more flames. Why? Dunno.
    Do they secretely enjoy it? That would be funny.
    Is it because they are so sad that they feel their map has been beaten up SO much. They don't try and better it - no, their baby that SOME people said was good has been hurt, and daddy has to defend it.

    Gah, how repetitive it gets. Read this, learn it. I think there needs to be huge, bold and red messages at the top of the page warning people that having egos and trying to fend of a majority that says your map isn't as good as you say is effectively internet suicide.

    but I hope that people will consider it objectively and without malice.

    Meh, people do until the author trys the noble approach and end up flat on his face in ****.

    I don't think it deserves to be stuck with a user rating of 2 and a nasty comment just because one person who looked at it doesn't appreciate it's genre and didn't try it online, especially when I know others who have played it online and enjoyed it.

    Some people enjoy the type of maps the majority don't.
    For example look at instagib. It's not an impressive game type, it's simple. A larger percentage don't like it than do.
    The same goes for spammy**** maps.


    When I said "architecture", I basically meant overall layout and design, not whether or not brushes with trimmed corners and support bracing for the walls were used.

    "layout and design" is not "architecture" They are seperate things, at least to everyone else.

    I know you're trying to tear down the map as a negative reaction to my self-promotion, Bot 40, but consider what is there.

    No he isn't. Where is you evidence? It's like me saying "You like to hangglide with bananas and cabonated waste paper whilst laying backwards on a hilly cave creature" - there's no proof.

    If anything, it further prooves that you cannot handle critisism. He gave an honest critique, and if you don't like that, don't bother starting a thread about the maps. Nalicity is a place where honesty is predominant.

    The tubes have bends instead of just being straight; that must be worth something positive in an evaluation.

    Bends in the tubes don't get you a 7. Just like maing a map out of glass doesn't. Just like making a moving train doesn't. A feature on its own counts of nothing - there is no backbone to support it.

    It's symmetrical yet not overly simplistic and instead of just having passages intersect at 90 degree angles, paths often meet rooms at bent angles.

    That is like saying "You can run forwards in UT" or "It is possible to jump across a platform". It's not really that impressive... well, I suppose it might be if you like boring tosh.

    There are opportunities for hammer jumps and boot jumps as a means of escaping with the flag; it does have some Z-axis.

    Some, though little. Look at phobos - that's what I call z-axis. Look at Dm-Seriphim - that's what I call some z-axis.

    I'm sure the layout for ThornsV2, which also lacks Z-axis, gets boring very fast, too, yet that map has been canonized as a clan ladder map and players join servers for it, which is no small feat.

    Cool, so 1% of UT players might play that map.

    And if you want comparison to thorns in a newb ego style -
    "ThornV2 Fu<KIng kicks your map's ass, because it has been played for ages online!"


    I agree that there is some texture misalignment in the flag bases. I know that it's possible to see the bends on the sides of the tubes themselves

    Therefor there isn't great texturing, is there?

    I think they look great and that I did a nice job with the textures and texture choices in that area.

    "Imagine a vast desert. Imagine you are standing in the middle, talking, yet nobody is around to nod there head and clap hands."

    Leet comment. Bangout, present the man some sort of ghey fetish award or something.

    I agree that the map doesn't have the world's greatest texture usage, but it is far from being horrible.

    Good. Agreeing that something in the map isn't overally great is a good step.


    If the texturing were compared with that of every other custom map that's ever been made, I'm sure it would be no worse than average and probably better.

    No worse than average might be right. However, you are downgrading your map. That's taking it below a 6 by now, surely?


    OK, but should that one detail be the entire basis for judging a map or even a significant basis?

    Way to go! You contradicted yourself. What was it...
    "70% of a map's score whould be how fun it plays online"


    It pales in comparison to the importance of the online game play.

    The stench of contradiction is a horrid thing - I recoomend washing out your ego a little.

    I'm sure flag runners spend time thinking about the lighting sources instead of focussing on whether going to check on the shield belt is worth the risk of exposing one's self in the center of the map or whether the basement route might be safer.

    You are right here... however I think most people who download maps actually do a fyby, looking at the visauls, before playing it with bots. That's the audience you are aiming fior at NC and at UP as well.

    As for lack of ambient sounds--most maps don't include that

    And that is why they get lower scores because of it. Score = 4... :/

    and Tubes Of Spam has good custom music which is much more than I can say for many maps that don't have any music at all or that just recycle the standard music.

    A lot of people turn music off anyway so they can hear their opponants. Music isn't really a important point.

    Theme is another one of those things which are nice, but don't really impact how fun a map is.

    Maybe if you are some kind of hardcore fag. I could say online playablity is one of those nice things thast doesn't really matter.

    CTF-Terra doesn't have much of a theme, but it's also been canonized as a clan laddermap.

    Terra has a theme - some kind of base in the mountains. Havn't played it for some time though.
    Terra also has gameplay and visuals...
    And is by Rich Akuma IIRC. He hasn't made a entirely bad map.

    Someone mentioned the 20 health vials in a row in one of the central tubes. I would have preferred to have had a keg there instead, but I decided to go with 20 health vials because I felt it would be the best way for players to distinguish between the two similarly situated tubes.

    Alternitivy you could have coloured them differently, rather than effect gameplay. That's the way you gameplay only types would think.


    Yeah, I quoted proph to type all that. I'm a lazy guy.

    And this isn't malicious. It's honesty. Can't handle the truth? Well, it's a big bad world full of bastards, friend.


    And no, this isn't flame. But I'm sure your feeling the Burn anyway.
     
  15. Zlal

    Zlal New but not improved.

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    This needs adressing too, I think.​

    Request to open CTF-Dagnys-Tubes-Of-Spam for comment

    I recently submitted a CTF map to Nali City and soon learned that the comment feature was locked. I know that the name might make evoke snickers, but it's really just an excellent map that falls into the fast-paced, high body count, tight map category alongside the likes of the popular Dreary, Gazpacho, Niven, Eternal Caves, and Burning.

    Some of those maps are the ass maps that epic made. Oh, and enternal caves isn't meant to be played like that.

    The construction is solid. The zoning is good, it's HOM free, and it includes zoned location ID tags.

    The construction is solid, not simple. Otherwise true.

    The bot pathing is very good, the use of textures is good, and the passages look great, many having their own unique texturing.

    True, False, Flase. Unique texturing is only good if the texture are good. These, unsurprisingly, are not.

    The lighting enhances the textures and adds some atmosphere, and the item placement is excellent and works to balance the numerous path options.

    The Lighting is poor. Enhances the texture brightness, prehaps. Atmosphere? Hah! Maybe the stuff you breath?

    The map has a semi-intricate, symmetrical design and also features beautiful custom music. I have played it online against others several times and it is fun. People don't flee the server when it comes up in the rotation.

    So? Your point is? People who like the map, yes. The thing is, that's only a select few from what I can see.

    I hope that Nali City will please reconsider its decision and open the comments and user rating features.

    Why? Higher chance of it getting a better score, why I garentee will not happen much.

    If not, then in fairness could we please delete all comments and user ratings?

    Btw, your Bold/Colour tags are horrible. You don't need to use 15 bolds for a paragraph that you want all bold. Same for colour - you don't need a end tag if there will be colour all the way. And fianlly, why do you need to use a white colour tag after a colour close tag? There's hardly a difference.

    It isn't fair for one person, the first user to comment, to have a monopoly on user feedback--it gives people a distorted view because they only see one opinion. If the commentary is locked, then the map's fans can't rate it and comment. I invite people in the community to judge for themselves whether or not it should be open for comment.

    Don't been shocked if the score doesn't change :)

    Here is a download link:

    http://www.beyondunreal.com/dl.php/nalicity/utctf/ctf-dagnys-tubes-of-spam.zip

    I recommend setting up a practice game with 9 bots (5-on-5) set to the Adept skill level and 125% speed (to simulate real human opponents).

    If you turn up the speed, won't YOU get faster too?​

    You can also play the map online at this server: 166.70.124.87 or UTCTF2.thegamebox.net

    ----------------------------------


    Some comments from people who have played it online (posted in other forums):

    Presuming these are real people, this is a handful of people. There are already many NC'ers that disaggree.​

    Lord Demios: It was quite a fun level Dagny. It was very fast and very action packed. This map really doesn't have the spammy feel in the critical areas. With four ways into the base, you can always take a different route to the flag. The game almost felt as fast paced as assault.

    Fast paced as assult? Play assult properly, with tactics -_-
    '
    The different routes are good. No spammy feel? Sounds like this guy wouldn't know spam if it came out of his ass.​

    Seven of 69: Even if you don't like spammy maps, this one is pretty to look at and features texture usage that I've never seen before. Tho inspired by Crap Park, ToS has much more attention to detail and all the tubes are color coded, so you won't get lost. Plus all your fav weapons and powerups are available. Dagny, I think that the premier of ToS was great! It plays surprisingly well and is far better than Crap Park. Plus it looks good and the color-coded tubes mean that you at least know your approximate relation to which base you're in. Also, once you realize that each tube has a different texture, it's easy to figure out where you are.

    Colour coded tubes are good.
    All your favourate weapons and powerups should not be in this spamfest. There isn't a redeemer is there? :O If so, then you are a cliff climber waiting to fall of to his death of a mapper and I'll stop being "polite"​

    Afroman: twisted map dagny! by looking at the pics, looks like there is enough maunevering room to get around some of the flak.

    Many if your opponant is a really bad aim. You know, I'm surprised he wasn't using aimbots. Also, seems like this gy didn't actually play the map anyway.​

    ToWnPrEp: Ooooooo I like! It's very kewl looking, and with a small groups, this will be a kick @$$ map.

    Eye exam recomended.​

    [OSX]Spectre: Good job dags..I was pretty impressed. I thought the map was much better than carpark mostly because it felt larger, and well.. less spammy. It still i
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2003
  16. Bot_40

    Bot_40 Go in drains

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    *sigh*
     

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  17. Bot_40

    Bot_40 Go in drains

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    hmm, whatever. Just want to make you aware that you are infact arguing with people with a combined mapping experience of over 10-15 years.
    Me = 3 years
    Hourences = 3-4 years
    Mr Prophet = prolly 3+ years, not sure
    and so on...
     
  18. Zlal

    Zlal New but not improved.

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    I liked this paragraph for it's definitive arogance.​

    All this proves is that good maps can be heavily critiqued.
    How arrogant of you. Never heard of modesty?
    You simply do not walk into a club and shout "I have a lovely wang" because you get bitchslapped.
    The same applies here.
    It's opinion, yes. Like *******s everyone has them. The problems lies in that the aurthor/owner/producer should know that his own opinion should be best kept to himself. Of coarse you like you wang, or map in this case. It's yours.
    However, it's others opinions that count.


    If someone is predetermined to smear a decent map as part of a flame war or as part of a visceral reaction to promotion (or to defensive responses to unfair negative feedback that resulted from the aforementioned visceral reaction to promotion) (as much as they might deny it), it's not hard to do.

    No, it's not hard to do. The thing, no one tries to. Honest. It's you - SHOCK HORROR! - that is causing this fuss. We give you critique, but you throw it back in out faces. People who don't like it arn't allowed to influence you, are they? What if they are right? Sometimes other are right, you know.

    Prehaps you like the sound of praise. However, if you don't heed negitive comments or advice, simply passing it off for flaming (And don't you dare deny that) you won't get far in pleasing others.

    It's interesting that a map could inspire such passion; it isn't the map; it's a visceral reaction to its promotion.

    It's both, actually. Yes, we ARE saying your map is bad. Yes, we ARE saying that you over-hyped the map.

    However, it's not passion. People are sad, but not quite that sad. No. This is merely amusing, like watching a funny film or a good programme.
    Think "bring out the pop corn"

    No amount of negative commentary will trump my own first-hand judgment and experience.

    Hold it. You are saying that you know better than everyone? And that because you like it, it doesn't matter.
    If that is your attitude, then don't try and force the map down our throats and expect praise from everyone.
    Think about this like you would work.
    You get a rreally cool, fun job taking photos of models, say. You take a few shots, and a couple of people say they are pretty good. You feel happy.

    You then look around for a place to sell your work, and find an office for a large art magazine company. Handing some of your photos out, you await their response with glee.

    However, these guys, who have been working in the trade longer than you, tell you that they arn't very good - the angle doesn't show the models in a good light, and that the angles arn't very exciting.

    You tell them that people have said that they are really good, but the people say that you could ask around at any good, decent company and they would say the same as them.

    You then turn around and say that their advice and critique is out of jealousy and that their opinion don't count. However, deep down you know they are right - you just don't want to knock your pride.

    This is the same as what is happening right now, I'd guess.
    The thing is, it's up to you to take it from here, and proove to me that ego's an be broken down and reshaped to something better for everyone.


    I am convinced that, objectively, it's a great map for online play.

    Again, it's not you that you have to impress - it's others.

    Of course, people who prefer more open maps won't like it, which is fine. Criticizing a suit for its not being a dress doesn't make it a bad suit.

    That doesn't mean that the map is good. A good critique would ignore that, and focus on what the map was meant to achieve, and the ones I have read achive that.

    I'm pretty confident that the substantial portion of the UT community that enjoys fast-paced, high body count maps will like it in spite of the fact that the textures aren't perfect (though they sure do look good in the tubes) and that it lacks ambient sound and sourced lighting.

    Substantial portion? Hah! How wrong is that. If that were true, then there would be loads of tiny maps with no detail and no looks released in games - something I've not ever seen (Well, you could argue that UT2003 has sucky maps, but there are loads of large maps in it)

    Also, the textures arn't the only problem. The whole map isn't perfect - yes, even the gameplay isn't perfect.
    Also, the tubes DO NOT LOOK GOOD, OK? THEY LOOK LIKE SOMEONE JUST SLAPPED A COUPLE OF TEXTURE ON THEM RANDOMLY. IS THIS GOOD, NO FFS.

    You almost make it sound like there's something illegitimate about the tastes of people who prefer that style of game play and those types of maps.

    Strictly speaking, there is. If you look at the ideals of gaming, it requires skills, intelligence and reaction.

    Spamfest maps don't have skill - and don't argue it does, because shooting constantly is not a skill - they don't need intelligence (Simple maps with no detail or obstacles. Or much z-axis, for that matter)
    They might, MIGHT, have need reaction. It depends on the map and the game.

    Actaully do argue about that. I really want to force myself to come up with a undoubtable answer to that question.
     
  19. WHIPperSNAPper

    WHIPperSNAPper New Member

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    It's certainly been an interesting thread. I had no idea there was such a large rift in the UT community between people who spend most of their time mapping and less playing and those who spend most playing and less mapping. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that the discussion has evoked such strong emotions. I could continue and respond to Shadowlurker's posts line-by-line, but I wouldn't have anything that's new in principal to say.

    I have participated in hundreds of serious, heated debates involving subjects ranging from the existence of God to abortion to economics and I can authoritatively say that after extended conversation you reach a point where it becomes clear that the sides have huge fundamental value differences that are essentially irreconcilable. The best that can be done is that each side might better understand the other side's reasoning while still staunchly disagreeing. I think we've accomplished that.

    [...And if you are breaking your arm patting yourself on the back for your ability to criticize the good or the average for not being the perfect and thinking that you've made me cry or made me sad or shaken the intellectual foundations and confidence of my world view or UT-view (as many of you have gleefully bragged), or convinced me that I am wrong and you are right, or convinced me that Tubes Of Spam is worthless and that my ideas for maps are horrific, re-examine your own big ego and get a sling because you have not. I've been involved with hundreds of more contentious debates, both on the Internet and live and in-person, on more philosophical subjects with far better debaters and far more cynical posters; this one hasn't phased me a bit.]

    Unsurprisingly, none of the extensive arguments have told me anything I hadn't already thought of on my own prior to my first post (Prior to this thread I was fully aware I hadn't included any ambient sounds or light sources and that the flag base texturing wasn't amazing), nor has it shaken my own evaluation of the map nor my judgment nor how I value and evaluate maps. I expect that everyone else who has participated in the thread feels the same.

    I'll probably end it at that and leave you to backslap each other with lots of "'atta boys" and pick these last few comments apart or churn over previous comments.
     
  20. Bot_40

    Bot_40 Go in drains

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    You really don't have to bother trying to convince us that we didn't persuade you in any way. Just making another post without making an attempt to recognise the problems the map has proves that just fine.
    I dunno if you even bothered to look at the pics I posted. I guess some people are just born blind anyways :hmm:
     
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