Is INF all about 5.56 Assault Rifles?

[ecale3]

Intersting. i didn't know so few ammo type where made for smg capable of piercing a class IIIa. Maybe it could be easy to bring in game new ammo types like yurch did with the 40 mm.

Now, this brings me to the question that logically follows... if there is armor piercing ammo available for smgs. whould there be a reason not to used it? Would everyone run around with it and never use standard ammo? So the question is... if tou shoot armor piercing rounds at an unarmored personal... what effect doest it have on wounding and such? Would it take more hits to put someone on the floor if he his not wearing armor? How could this be implemented in INF?

Armor Piercing rounds against unarmored targets generally make two bullet sized (read very small) holes and do very little as far as wound cavities and such. Unless it hits something vital, people shot with AP rounds when they aren't armored may still be capable of fighting. IIRC some of the spec-ops troops in mogadishu in 1993 were using ap rounds for the Car-15, and there was mention of rounds simply going right through somali fighters while the people continued fighting. I may be wrong, its been a while since i read BHD.

 

[Blitzschlag]

Nevertheless the quatities of such ammunication that one can take could be limited (e.g. a supply limit). If you can take only one mag or two of armor piercing rounds due to "supply limits", it would still give use to normal ammo and to amor. Furthermore people would think more before using a specific ammunition and spamming could be reduced. Or is the slap round used for supressing fire?

The only Prob is, i must visually see that the target wears a Amor, otherwise u shoot a whol amorpiercing mag in a soft target! So the limit can only be used combined wit h this requirement. If nit its useless to discous about taht ammunition.

 

[Rostam]

I'm pretty sure armor piercing has less wounding potential than normal rounds as they don't leave such a big gap.

Double instaposted, atleast I got some revenge on meplat

 

[Meplat]

Most AP type projectiles in fact, do leave slightly larger than diameter entrance, and exit wounds in soft tissue. A true center of mass hit will still result in a kill.

This leave the "fleeting" or "Periphery" hits. An expansive or explosive (yes, explosive rounds did exist) would be very destructive with even a graze, whereas unless it hit bone, a dedicated AP round would most likely cause a relatively minor injury.

Of note, some of the explosive rounds, notably the Bingham-Squires made munitions(now defunct) were very nasty on kevlar, posessing a near Monroe effect. The slug would not get you, the jet of molten K129, and expanding explosive gases would. Strangely, the later Velets, were not so destructive, making a horrible char mark on the outer layers, and completely failing to penetrate.

 

[Arethusa]

Meplat, there's no doubt that small arms AP rounds will leave exit wounds (in fact, they're more likely to than, say, a glaser or hollowpoint, which is less likely to penetrate), and they will be noticable, they're generally not going to be nearly as unpleasant as what you'd get from something deforming or frangible. The story about Somali fighters getting hosed with 5.56x45mm SLAPs was mentioned earlier is not a myth. Even solid, center mass hits with small, hard, fast projectiles can fail to hit anything immediately debilitating or even appreciably lethal in the long run.

 

[spm1138]

BHD mentions Delta using CAR15's with M855 ("Green Tip") rather than armour piercing bullets doesn't it?

 

[Arethusa]

There was a pretty broad spread of weapons among the operators. Howe was packing a CAR15 with SLAPs, as I recall.

 

[geogob]

BHD mentions Delta using CAR15's with M855 ("Green Tip") rather than armour piercing bullets doesn't it?

M855 NATO Ball is what is currently implemented in INF (or should be if the armory reads right). Question for RL military personal... what type of ammo is normally used in operation? Like right now, in Iraq, are the US troops loading AP or Ball cartriges? What about Canadians in Afganistan. Are both pretty standard or is one more common than the other?


Arethusa, are you sure about the CAR15 loading SLAP rounds. Somehow, I feel that SLAP and 5.56 doesn't really belong together.

 

[Tiffy]

The answer to that question Geogob is BALL. 90% of the time that's all a soldier will have available. The last 10% is mainly Tracer with speciality ammo like AP being rare.

 

[Arethusa]

On that note, BHD did not make it seem like all the soldiers were packing SLAPs. Was just the Deltas, and probably not all of them. They're quite uncommon, after all. As the afterword explains, aside from Howe and a couple others, almost all Delta refused to speak about the events (as you can imagine).

 

[Nukeproof]

Intersting. i didn't know so few ammo type where made for smg capable of piercing a class IIIa. Maybe it could be easy to bring in game new ammo types like yurch did with the 40 mm.

That's exactly where I was coming from

 

[Nukeproof]

The answer to that question Geogob is BALL. 90% of the time that's all a soldier will have available. The last 10% is mainly Tracer with speciality ammo like AP being rare.

If the enemy was likely to wear Kevlar, AP would be much more common very quickly I guess. But Afghan or Iraq Soldiers are probably as likely to carry IIIa as meeting the Yeti in Sahara

 

[geogob]

On that note, BHD did not make it seem like all the soldiers were packing SLAPs. Was just the Deltas, and probably not all of them. They're quite uncommon, after all. As the afterword explains, aside from Howe and a couple others, almost all Delta refused to speak about the events (as you can imagine).

Arethusa, i reask my question... are you sure about SLAP. Because I thought SLAP was .50 only. And it would make no sense that they used AP while all the others BALL.


EDIT: btw, thanks for your anwser Tiffy. if you have more insight on this i'd be interested.

 

[OICW]

On that note, BHD did not make it seem like all the soldiers were packing SLAPs. Was just the Deltas, and probably not all of them. They're quite uncommon, after all. As the afterword explains, aside from Howe and a couple others, almost all Delta refused to speak about the events (as you can imagine).

The only reference to SLAP rounds in the book is in regards to where a M60 gunner shoots an old Somali man with several rounds but takes a while to expire; Howe complains about the "green tip" round, which is the M855, 62 grain FMJ round used since the 1980s.

I have never heard of a sabot round in 5.56X45mm. The US military has a M995 tungsten core 5.56mm round, but that's obviously not a sabot.

The only small arms SLAP rounds AFAIK were made in 7.62X51 and .50 BMG, and the 7.62X51mm rounds had a tendency to exit out of the side of the M60's barrel, whereas the .50 BMG rounds had no problems and were adopted as the M903 SLAP.

 

[LongJohn]

In real combat situation you probably know your enemy, his equipment and the need of AP ammo or specific weapons.
In INF combat there's no intelligence which could provide such information and to make things worse the opponent will most likely use a varied mixture of weapons and armor

In this situation armor unbalances the game - IMO

You have the choice of either using the MP5 (or the like) and take the risk of emptying a whole magazin with nearly no effect. Or you play for safety and some weapons are out.

I want my MP5 back

Armor vests should be banished

 

[Arethusa]

Arethusa, i reask my question... are you sure about SLAP. Because I thought SLAP was .50 only. And it would make no sense that they used AP while all the others BALL.


EDIT: btw, thanks for your anwser Tiffy. if you have more insight on this i'd be interested.

As OICW explains, I got my facts mixed up. Was a 60 gunner on a blackhawk that was complaining about hosing a somali fighter quite heavily with SLAPs and still failing to disable him. As for .50BMG, I've seen them referred to alternatingly as APDS and SLAP. Really, there's no difference and it's just a matter of semantics. As for 5.56x45mm SLAPs, they may exist (supposedly; I wouldn't put much of any weight on what few mentions of this I've seen).

In any case, mixed up Howe (who was complaining about the ineffectiveness of standard 5.56x45mm ball) and that 60 gunner.

As for the MP5 being useless, I honestly don't mind. When you have forces that both have access to armor, SMGs are of questionable effectiveness. This, of course, is not helped by UT99's horrible hit detection.

 

[geogob]

The only time I've seen references to APDS were with larger calibers (e.g. 105mm, 120mm). But i think it's essentially the same principes that are used by SLAP and APDS (it looks similar anyhow).

 

[- Lich -]

ATM the assault rifles are simply better. Not only they do more damage, they get the 'better' attachments, too. We have lasers, flashlights, supressors, reflex sights and scopes.
On 2.86 the point of taking an mp5 or p90 was: they can carry supressors/ are better for night fighting due to the aimpoint/flashlight and p90 sights. Now I simply take a famas, m16a4 or m4 when I want to fight in the dark/ be more silent.
So another way to get the mp's back, might be to give them some more attachments, maybe something like a x1.5/ x2 scope, nightvision devices or whatever else to make them be better at a certain discipline (and would be realistic, of course). Maybe to the weapons modders: Please: Cool attachments for mp's only

Another fact on the mp5 stops me from using it: the reload time. I need more rounds to get the tango down, ok, I could live with it, but reloading takes a long time, again longer than the assault rifles. Maybe there is somewhere a mp used by military forces, which can be reloaded as fast as a m16

 

[spm1138]

ATM the assault rifles are simply better.

IRL assault rifles are simply better?

 

[Rostam]

There are too many factors to decide that... IRL that is.