UT3 Postmortem

[Kharnellius]

So.... it was not released "when its done"

Tell me one game that has actually shipped "when it's done". The only one I can think of that might do that is DNF. It's working out quite well for them as we can see.

At some point you have to ship the game "when it's done enough". Then you send out whatever patches you need to fix whatever was missed/needed tweaking.


(Sorry, this is not necessarily directed towards you. You just so happened to be the first to mention it, and frankly anyone who thinks any game has been released "When it was done" is very very naive.)

 

[Anuban]

^^^ HL2. I don't recall that game ever having any patches.

 

[Crotale]

No, you said he was full of crap so I stand corrected. ^^ And you misunderstand me, if you and I don't expect Epic to follow through on every hint of possible features they spilled during development is of no importance. The general publics impressions is what matters.

And that is why I questioned his comments. I hear what you're saying, and it actually fortifies my point. People like you and I may keep tabs on a game during its development cycle, but the average joe gamer doesn't. He only cares about what he perceives to be a good game or what his buddies tell him is a good or bad game. He also isn't going to know if "promised" features were left out of the shipped game.

 

[Spank$hot_BT]

^^^ HL2. I don't recall that game ever having any patches.

Huh? i thought that it was constantly updated/patched via steam??

@Kharnellius - Cod4, tf2, HL2 were far more complete games on release than UT3 was and have had many patches in their equally short lifespans.

Just thought you'd like to know this. Crysis sales in belgium are respectable. Those of UT3 not. I blame the distributors personally. The ****ers decide what goes on the shelves and what doesn't. In fact in the big supermarkets such as Carrefour or Cora there's no sign of UT3 at all.

Yes, agreed, i made that point in some other thread. Just got a load of unsubstantiated crap in response. Distribution has been a big factor imo.

Regarding Epics admission of UT3s shortcomings - A long long overdue attempt at damage control for their reputation imo. An effort to regain some credibilty in the eyes of the - bread & butter - PC UT community. . Maybe they've also realised there is just as much money to be made from these people with the right product. The best form of damage control will be a true sequel to 2K4 for PC.

This is only a limited admission imo as to how far the consoles effected the PC version. The aspects of the game they say they are happy with are very questionable. Gameplay is undeniably a step backwards, Yes they have mods & maps created but who's playing them online and while the gfx are very hi-tech and the quality of the art is totally subjective i don't believe they are condusive to good gameplay.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

Personally, I think a lot of the problems UT3 is facing are VERY similar to UT2003. Those of you who keep saying that UT3 is more unfinished than that game don't remember very well, unless the only thing you think is required to "finish UT3" is for them to add a dozen options to the settings screens.

 

[Anuban]

Huh? i thought that it was constantly updated/patched via steam??

I don't think so but maybe you are correct. I never noticed that I had to apply any patch ... maybe it does auto update. But I guess my bigger point is that I don't recall the game ever having any major bugs or issues even when it first came out. People were extremely impressed by just how bug free and incredibly polished from what I recall. Again though it could be Steam was updating HL2 ... again I don't remember seeing any change log files that showed bug fixes. As far as engine improvements maybe that is what you thinking about. I think when the source engine gets improved there is an update that automatically occurs as soon as you start the game up. Again though I never really took any time to look into this because the game was so good out the gate. That was a good year actually ... 2004 ... HL2 got GOTY for the PC, H2 got GOTY and UT2k4 got PC MP GOTY and Doom 3 got some awards as well. A golden year for the PC and for Halo fans (though H2 has some serious flaws even I admit that).

 

[WarTourist]

Well imo CliffyB made it sound like the failure of UT3 had more to do with unhappy customers and whiny users than with the problems/issues/bugs in the game.

Obut I don't think I am the only one that interpreted his statements about the state of PC gaming in that manner.

I re-read that interview and nowhere does HE mention UT3, customers or whining. Don't make me ignore list you .

 

[Kharnellius]

Personally, I think a lot of the problems UT3 is facing are VERY similar to UT2003. Those of you who keep saying that UT3 is more unfinished than that game don't remember very well, unless the only thing you think is required to "finish UT3" is for them to add a dozen options to the settings screens.

Agreed. I don't know how people have such short memories.



- HL2 was patched multiple times. I remember waiting for steam on a number of occasions when I just wanted to play the game.

I'm not saying UT3 doesn't need a better UI or some tweaking, but to say any game has been released "When it's [was] done" is turning a blind eye to reality.

The rest of the world has to get out products at some point regardless of its "status". All products have a level of "completeness" companies are willing to accept before releasing them to the public.

I guess you could argue that they didn't reach that level of "completeness" but seeing how well the game plays, I really find no way to complain especially when the "flaws" aren't all that deal breaking. (Certainly some flaws and perhaps even big ones, but they've got the core down perfect and that is what really matters)

The issues I have seen so far can easily be patched just as other UT releases have been patched.

THE DIFFERENCE....this time they have an incredibly solid base to work off of and to build up from.

 

[Grobut]

Sorry, but you are full crap. If you, or anyone else, personally take everything a developer says he will include in a game as gospel, then you will be sadly disappointed with every game you buy/play.

If you remember, there was movement afoot sometime last year after Epic stated they would merge CTF and vCTF gametypes. Wow, they did not deliver that, so are you pissed about that one too?

I'll keep this short and sweet, promises where made, namely that Epic would put the PC first, they stressed this over and over, it is why we where all pretty shocked to see the UI in the demo.
Now they are saying that "oops, we let the console version derail us".

The rest i dont care about, i knew features like the Conquest gametype might not turn out to be all that for instance, thats how things go, but i actually thought that Epic, considdering how good they have treated us in the past with patches and bonus packs, would deliver on this one thing, that they would make sure the PC version was solid, and felt like it was made for PC, afterall, they said it was a foremost goal for them.

It doesen't really matter how you spin it, it doesen't matter if other companies do it too, there's a good reason why i dont belive a word said by the hype machines of EA or UBI for instanse, but i thought Epic would be different, they did inspire trust because of past performance, and they didn't deliver on it.


Also, stop trying to milk the word "promis", it is pure semantics, and it is a weak and transparent attempt at gaining leverage, English is not my first language, i could probably have used a better word, but it is besides the point, Epic had build up a reputation, and even a trust with their customers, and now it is gone for alot of us, i now give their word no more weight than i do EA's for instance, how could i? just listen to Mark Rein go on..

But look around you, look at some of thease replies in this forum subsection, alot of people are still desperately clinging to every word Epic says, and reading it as "gospel" as you so eloquently put it, that should tell you something, if you are not too caught up in your own selfrighteous indignation to see the irony.


As for screenshots, this is so old, its been up many times here, they where clearly rendered in-engine, and not in-game, IE, they where staged in the Editor with Kismet, just look for tell tale signs like facial expressions that are not possible in the game.

 

[dethmanrulz]

hi Wartourist.

I think this was the quote that has been interpreted to mean Epic is focusing on consoles...

“I think people would rather make a game that sells 4.5 million copies than a million and “Gears” is at 4.5 million right now on the 360. I think the PC is just in disarray… what’s driving the PC right now is ‘Sims’-type games and ‘WoW‘ and a lot of stuff that’s in a web-based interface. You just click on it and play it. That’s the direction PC is evolving into So for me, the PC is kind of the secondary part of what we’re doing. It’s important for us, but right now making AAA games on consoles is where we’re at.”


especially the last sentence. Anyway, I'm still a fan of your work, and I hope you guys continue to support UT3 (when's that "cool stuff" Mark Rein talked about coming?)

 

[Sir_Brizz]

I'll keep this short and sweet, promises where made, namely that Epic would put the PC first, they stressed this over and over, it is why we where all pretty shocked to see the UI in the demo.
Now they are saying that "oops, we let the console version derail us".

The difference is, Epic hasn't tried this before. Ever. Now they know it doesn't work, in the postmortem they made it clear that THEY KNOW that it didn't work. Lesson learned.

Thing is, people keep saying the UI is so "consolified" but I don't really see it. I could also say that the HL2 menu is consolified because it uses several design paradigms that work on a controller. There are countless games out now that this is true for (just look at CoD4).

If it's lack of settings, I don't really understand that at all. The game could have shipped with the same UI it has now "for PCs". While I'm sure a lot of concessions were made in the UI to make it code compatible with the PS3 (particularly for modding), the UI design itself is fine and the base is extensible enough to make it easy to add functionality.

 

[hwkwnd99]

it's been a ruff road for ut3 online, which is the only reason i would play,
but i'll continue to support ut3, and ut2k3,ut2k4 and ut
but i won't forget that this release has been a pain, with inadequate and late support

 

[BigDragon]

Who knows. They've said before that they're working on new content for the game to help it sell over time, but these speeches/interviews really make it sound like they're done with it. And I think we're well aware by now that what Epic says they'll do is rarely accurate.

I predicted v1.2 would be the last patch after WarTourist admitted there would be no client-side demo support. Only time will tell, I guess. D:

I think that new content you're speaking of is Mark Rein's "cool stuff coming for this game" comment and then some obscure message about wanting to do a modding contest. Wanting is not the same as "coming this spring". Cool stuff coming is not the same thing as "Cold Harbor, a map we advertised that would be in the game, will be available for download next month". They're pretty much "Xeroxing" words right now. I'd like to see "real change" in the form of substantive statements.

^^^ HL2. I don't recall that game ever having any patches.

It did. I remember logging onto Steam a couple of times, trying to play HL2, and being forced to wait for an update to download. It's done that recently in the past month too. The patches to Valve's games are delivered seamlessly through Steam. This is good in some respects (don't have to hunt around for patch news) and bad in some respects (can't play until the patch downloads and installs).

I re-read that interview and nowhere does HE mention UT3, customers or whining. Don't make me ignore list you .

My favorite thing is when you ignore-list someone, yet you still have to read the stuff they typed when they get quoted. That, and if you're not logged in, you also still have to read everything. You had the opportunity to make amends with me. It's a pity you still haven't chosen to do so. I would be much more friendly, change my avatar, and stop saying bad things about your company if you did. It would leave me with just the cd-key thing only when it pertains to UT3 (which actually didn't ask me last time I switched IP addresses; perhaps it's remembering per-IP address?).

 

[Anuban]

I re-read that interview and nowhere does HE mention UT3, customers or whining. Don't make me ignore list you .

I don't want you to ignore list me but that is my opinion and I feel like I am entitled to it. To me you guys don't sound like you are reading from the same play book ... pardon the sports analogy. But I never meant to get into any argument or debate it. I was merely stating my perspective ... how I interpreted what he said vs what you said. I would hate to think that would get me ignored ... even if I am mistaken. Now maybe if Cliffy would post to this or some other thread and simply say he still loves the PC and he still cares about the Unreal community he helped to build that would clarify things but until then what he said is open to interpretation.

Edit: I re-read it again too just now and I see your point. The disarray statement could mean anything but it is so broad that it is hard to tie it to meaning that its the users fault that PC gaming is in disarray ... but see that's the point PC gaming is not in disarray but it is when it comes to Epic's products if you go by what a lot of folks in the three main forums (Epic official, BUF, and Gamespot) are saying (not me let me make that clear). Gears PC his product has lots of bugs and issues and many unhappy customers so maybe he was referring to that game in a round about way ... and if he was then I don't think he would admit that it was the fault of Epic that Gears PC has so many issues ... unlike how you and Mike did acknowledge there were/are problems with UT3.

No one has ever owned up to the Gears issue so that is where it seems like he is blaming gamers for the percieved failure (not so much failure but when it comes to Epic the expectations for the both games was a lot greater, especially for UT3 ... at least externally if not internally ... which is something we the public will never know) and then to say that right now the consoles are where its at sounds again like he is being somewhat dismissive of PC gaming but it can't be PC gaming if you think about it logically for the reasons since many PC games had a really good year so again it seems like he is talking about Gears and UT3 (since he said consoles and not the 360 which is the only thing Gears runs on unless he was dropping a hint about what Gears 3 will be on) which would mean the "we're" he is talking about is the entire company and not just his Gears team.

So yeah that is where I got my grand theory so to speak. Like I said its just my opinion and I could be wrong, but please don't be angry with me ... it was Cliffy that said what he did and by not being clear (imo) he opened the subject up for all kinds of theories ... especially when you consider you and Mike were the exact opposite ... crystal clear about how UT3 on the PC got screwed up and how the users had nothing to do with it.

 

[fuegerstef]

And this is different than other developers how?

Anyway, the shots are clearly staged. That doesn't mean they aren't in-game. It would be next to impossible to get shots like they did during regular gameplay, if you can do that on your machine, I'd sure like to see the results.

One good thing to come from this Postmortem is that we now know that Epic knows that we know that certain parts of the game are utterly horrible. Perhaps that means they are really working on a permanent fix.

I'd rather call them realtime in-engine. Because there is a level of detail that the game in it's current state cannot deliver.

 

[fuegerstef]

Oh really? And what would that be? It's either realtime or not realtime (aka prerendered).

If you read what I had written and quoted you would have understood that there are more than only prerendered or ingame.
Nowhere did I say that the shots weren't realtime. I only said that they aren't in-game (see my last post).

 

[fuegerstef]

^^^ HL2. I don't recall that game ever having any patches.

You either must be totally blind or never ever touched this game.

 

[Anuban]

My favorite thing is when you ignore-list someone, yet you still have to read the stuff they typed when they get quoted. That, and if you're not logged in, you also still have to read everything. You had the opportunity to make amends with me. It's a pity you still haven't chosen to do so. I would be much more friendly, change my avatar, and stop saying bad things about your company if you did. It would leave me with just the cd-key thing only when it pertains to UT3 (which actually didn't ask me last time I switched IP addresses; perhaps it's remembering per-IP address?).

You realize he was talking to me right? I don't want you to get into any more trouble than you have to.

 

[Anuban]

You either must be totally blind or never ever touched this game.

No neither I just don't remember the game getting patched early on or users complaining a lot about bugs (or me encountering any bugs). But like I said if they did patch the actual game through automatic means it was transparent to me. I did play the game pretty quickly so maybe these patches came out after I was already done?

 

[Crotale]

I'll keep this short and sweet, promises where made, namely that Epic would put the PC first, they stressed this over and over, it is why we where all pretty shocked to see the UI in the demo.
Now they are saying that "oops, we let the console version derail us".

The rest i dont care about, i knew features like the Conquest gametype might not turn out to be all that for instance, thats how things go, but i actually thought that Epic, considdering how good they have treated us in the past with patches and bonus packs, would deliver on this one thing, that they would make sure the PC version was solid, and felt like it was made for PC, afterall, they said it was a foremost goal for them.

It doesen't really matter how you spin it, it doesen't matter if other companies do it too, there's a good reason why i dont belive a word said by the hype machines of EA or UBI for instanse, but i thought Epic would be different, they did inspire trust because of past performance, and they didn't deliver on it.


Also, stop trying to milk the word "promis", it is pure semantics, and it is a weak and transparent attempt at gaining leverage, English is not my first language, i could probably have used a better word, but it is besides the point, Epic had build up a reputation, and even a trust with their customers, and now it is gone for alot of us, i now give their word no more weight than i do EA's for instance, how could i? just listen to Mark Rein go on..

But look around you, look at some of thease replies in this forum subsection, alot of people are still desperately clinging to every word Epic says, and reading it as "gospel" as you so eloquently put it, that should tell you something, if you are not too caught up in your own selfrighteous indignation to see the irony.


As for screenshots, this is so old, its been up many times here, they where clearly rendered in-engine, and not in-game, IE, they where staged in the Editor with Kismet, just look for tell tale signs like facial expressions that are not possible in the game.

Well, all I have is this...if you have such a strong distaste for UT3, why do you stick around this forum bitching about it? Why not move on? In all sincerity, every one of you who perpetually bitch about how bad this game is need to get a life. It appears to me that some of you have made it some personal mission in life to chase away everyone who might like the game. Way to go. IMO, you guys are doing more of a disservice to the game than Epic could ever have done, because your actions are a result of malice.