True Scale 29

[TOAD]

ehh you know that you've implemented a 2x zoom this way do ya... how real is that if everything else is based on the real thing in your mutator?

You know what, I can simply turn right around and say that your game is running at 1/2X. I'm referencing 45 as 1x because most people probably play INF on a typical 17" - 21" monitor.

 

[TOAD]

Why do I have the feeling as if as soon as I release this mutie, it gets installed on everyone's computers and messes everything up. It's so simple, if you don't like it, don't even look at this thread. If you tried it and didn't like it simply delete it.

 

[geogob]

Toad, you got PM.



edit: i was gonna answer here, but this is not the place. Others should also keep this in mind.

 

[SaraP]

You know what, I can simply turn right around and say that your game is running at 1/2X. I'm referencing 45 as 1x because most people probably play INF on a typical 17" - 21" monitor.

*rolleyes* Just when I start thinking you might really mean well, you start proving that you are indeed an arrogant S.O.B. Ladies and gentlemen, note that the underlying assumption in Toad’s statement here is that he is de facto right because he says so.

 

[geogob]

SaraP, I think this is out of topic. Get it on PM or email or whatever. Lets try to stay on topic and to keep this forum clean (and that applies to me and to everyone else too). I can understand why many don't care much for these forums anymore. Too much said here should have been said offline. Thx

 

[TOAD]

SaraP, you're good at what you do, SS should hire you as a spokesperson.

 

[SaraP]

I’ve got too hot a temper and too blunt a tongue to be a successful PR person, I’m afraid, although I suppose I’m fairly articulate.

 

[Keganator]

Everyone, chill. This is a forum for development of mutators, maps, sounds, and art, not a forum for flaming and intolerance. If you want to talk about issues regarding the mutator, discuss the issues about the mutator. Everyone has the right to do what they want. If Toad feels up to making a mutator, it's his prerogative. Give suggestions, give alternatives, but there's no reason to flame and fight about it. If any of the involved parties wish to continue flaming, feel free to accept a week or so in the Mystical Land of Read Only. If you want to help, you should offer suggestions and comments regarding the mutator and its execution. For example, suggesting it be made a game type was a good suggestion, while suggesting Toad eat feces was not. Let’s try to get back to some civilized discussion again, shall we?

 

[Spooger]

Ummm... excuse the Spooger for his less than... "sure, yeah I know what this muti does..." approach, but bare with me I'm an old guy and likely senile... likely.

But I have no idea what this muti even does. ?!?!?!?!?

"True Scale 29" to me sounds like a muti that FIXES the damn scalling issue with real world maps and the recent UT release. But hey, what does an old dude know (one who has not even released a map in... months, years)?

If you can fix what I'm talking about then you could be of use to me and my circle, (yes you are a great guy and you did the community something cool, Kudos, but I need help with the scale issues in the Unreal runtime, you know)? - ignore me, I had a Monday night most people save for Fri or Sat.

Unreal Runtime - http://udnbeta.epicgames.com/Powered/UnrealEngine2Runtime

Another round for all! DOH! That was earlier, nevermind.

 

[Freon]

lol Spooger, it's not really that, otherwise there wouldn't be any flame war

as I said earlier, this thread has nothing to do in the developement forum. It was one of the few without trolls or flame wars yet

 

[Spooger]

DOH! I didn't start a flame war did I?

Besides, flame wars are for dipshiats. I have seen too many to count and got dragged into more than I care to remember. Most of you old dudes know what I'm talking about.

Should I start a new thread regarding the funky scale issue then?

 

[meeba]

seems like your missing Beppos point still TOAD

hes doesnt seem concerned about the forum regulars downloading the mutator, hes concerned that someone new to inf will jump on a server that has your mutator active, and not be aware of the difference...if it is implemented as a new gametype as suggested it will give the choice to the player

why are you so opposed to this idea?

 

[randomas]

I have a feeling that he's scared of screwing inf up by going in and touching pieces of code he doesn't know. Which is a fair point. Then again all the help needed is here and offered.

P.s. could you make the gunsight variable with 60° and a 45° mode like gunsighta and gunsightb ? Or would you have to recalibrate all the scope sizes to fit ?

 

[Paskunx]

Originally Posted by TOAD
... At 45 FOV, I can see and hit them fairly well but still not as well as the case IRL... so I still don't think 45 FOV is too much unless you're playing on a 36" monitor at 3200x2400

ehh you know that you've implemented a 2x zoom this way do ya... how real is that if everything else is based on the real thing in your mutator?

Well, well, well...

Lets take a 21" monitor - its about 16" wide (measure yourselves if you dont believe me).
Your face is about 20" away from the screen (measure yourselves if you dont believe me).

So, you observe your screen at angle=2*arctg((16"/2)/20")
Which is about 43-44 degrees (most people use even smaller monitors though)

If you use 90deg fov ingame you can see crap at 200m distance, while in real life you can see a person 200m away pretty decently (assuming your eyes are ok).
Now how real is that?

Yeah, i agree, 45 is 2x zoom in comparision to 90

but NO WAY 45 is like 2x zoom compared to real life vision, in fact, 45 is MOST exactly like real seeing, but because of screen limits you walk like a horse with eyecaps, and thats when 90fov comes in handy.

You cannot simulate real seeing with a monitor, but implementing both fovs is way more realistic than just one of them (IMHO the best solution would be not restricting fov in 45-110 range)

I thought it was quite obvious thing, so i got quite suprised to see Beppo's statement about 2x zoom.

But i am not suprised that Inf2.90 is not as real as it gets, not anymore.

 

[TOAD]

Wow Paskunx, I couldn't have explained it any better than you did. Since you're already getting technical, 45 is about 2.4x zoom compared to 90. Anyway, I'm finally seeing some constructive posts. You said that you don't feel 2.9 is as real as it gets anymore, please post your thoughts with some explaination. This is what this thread should be about.

For me I'm taking a break on TS right now, my next plan is to modify the damage system. Death/incapacitated will only result from loss of blood or hit to critical areas such as head or heart. It doesn't make sense to hit someone in the toe 3 times and count him out of the game. He might be slowed down and in agony, but he's still capable of pulling the trigger on you.

 

[TOAD]

P.s. could you make the gunsight variable with 60° and a 45° mode like gunsighta and gunsightb ? Or would you have to recalibrate all the scope sizes to fit ?

The scopes are using 45º as reference for zoom, so yes I would have to change the size and zoom of the scope if you want 60º for gunsight, but I'm going to leave 45 as the lowest FOV you can use. However, if you want to use any FOV between 90 and 45. I can make it to zooms like how the robar's scope does it, or using a direct bind with requesting FOV. Here's the catch, sight alignment changes along with FOV so right now I'm using two set of zeroing values for the 2 modes. This is something I might look into though.

Edit: btw, if anyone wants to tweak/modify TS29 and make another mutie out of it, please feel free to do so.

 

[Beppo]

Well, well, well...

Lets take a 21" monitor - its about 16" wide (measure yourselves if you dont believe me).
Your face is about 20" away from the screen (measure yourselves if you dont believe me).

So, you observe your screen at angle=2*arctg((16"/2)/20")
Which is about 43-44 degrees (most people use even smaller monitors though)

If you use 90deg fov ingame you can see crap at 200m distance, while in real life you can see a person 200m away pretty decently (assuming your eyes are ok).
Now how real is that?

Yeah, i agree, 45 is 2x zoom in comparision to 90

but NO WAY 45 is like 2x zoom compared to real life vision, in fact, 45 is MOST exactly like real seeing, but because of screen limits you walk like a horse with eyecaps, and thats when 90fov comes in handy.

You cannot simulate real seeing with a monitor, but implementing both fovs is way more realistic than just one of them (IMHO the best solution would be not restricting fov in 45-110 range)

I thought it was quite obvious thing, so i got quite suprised to see Beppo's statement about 2x zoom.

But i am not suprised that Inf2.90 is not as real as it gets, not anymore.

A FOV of 80 or 90 is 'standard' in modern games and reflects what a human is able to see. If someone would use a VR helmet or VR glasses then it would fit perfectly.
The calculations you guys showed here are correct but they do not reflect what your player would see in the world he is playing in... you calculate it from the point of view the human player sitting behind a monitor with a specific distance has and not what the character in-game is able to see.
So, games use the FOV of the player representation in-game and not the human sitting in front of a monitor. Nothing fits if you scale it down and all it does is zooming in... nothing more.
And if you really think that the 45 FOV is more real... well then please find a way to pull out the weapon meshs in front of the monitor into the hands of the human player... cause only then would the FOV of the human player fit to what you are able to see on screen. The screen is not a small window into a world that changes its FOV depending on the position a human player has in front of it... it represents the FOV of the character in-game... nothing more.

Beppo

 

[Beppo]

... Edit: btw, if anyone wants to tweak/modify TS29 and make another mutie out of it, please feel free to do so.

and again... IF you are changing basic rules and features of the original INF 2.9 then make your own gametype out of it to avoid any form of mix up on the servers that can lead to false impressions about the game we designed.

or to quote someone here: if you want to make mutators that only modify the game, implement them as new gametypes so that people don’t mix up our vision for the game with your modified version.

Beppo

 

[TOAD]

A FOV of 80 or 90 is 'standard' in modern games and reflects what a human is able to see. If someone would use a VR helmet or VR glasses then it would fit perfectly.
The calculations you guys showed here are correct but they do not reflect what your player would see in the world he is playing in... you calculate it from the point of view the human player sitting behind a monitor with a specific distance has and not what the character in-game is able to see.
So, games use the FOV of the player representation in-game and not the human sitting in front of a monitor. Nothing fits if you scale it down and all it does is zooming in... nothing more.
And if you really think that the 45 FOV is more real... well then please find a way to pull out the weapon meshs in front of the monitor into the hands of the human player... cause only then would the FOV of the human player fit to what you are able to see on screen. The screen is not a small window into a world that changes its FOV depending on the position a human player has in front of it... it represents the FOV of the character in-game... nothing more.

Beppo

I don't like to conform to any standard, I go with what feels right and common sense. What are these modern games are you talking about? UT and Quake? It is usually the simulators that let people change the FOV. Like I said before 45 FOV was meant for monitors and not VR glasses. The monitor is a 2d window to the world. If you have a pair of stereo 3d glasses, with the correct settings, the weapon mesh will pop out in front of the screen.

 

[TOAD]

and again... IF you are changing basic rules and features of the original INF 2.9 then make your own gametype out of it to avoid any form of mix up on the servers that can lead to false impressions about the game we designed.

or to quote someone here: if you want to make mutators that only modify the game, implement them as new gametypes so that people don’t mix up our vision for the game with your modified version.

Beppo

Here's the thing, I'm chaging the game play, not the game type. In the past, any server that ran game play tweaking mutie always state upfront what mutie they're running (rav2, rav1, ra286, etc.). Lastly, chances are you're not going to see 24/7 servers running TS or something like it any time soon.