Request to open CTF-Dagnys-Tubes-Of-Spam for comment

[Aggressor]

OMG, this thread is hilarious ))

Thebubba just stole words I wanted to say - Dagny would get an excellent job at PR agencies, no, he would be the perfect replacement for Ari Fleischer. There is only one guy I know personaly (and is not involved in politics) that's able to pretend and overturn words as much as Dagny does (but even he doesn't have the will to drag topics this far). But, I know great many mappers, that build maps way better that this tube thingy.

Let me accompany the reviewers in saying that this map sux both visually and in terms of gameplay; from Dagny's comments it is obvious, that either he doesen't know almost anything besides subtracting a cube, either he is too puffed-up to admit that his current map just isn't the work of art. Everyone of us started to map with relatively simple concepts. Some mappers release their early work and some don't, which creates an illusion that some mappers made a breakthrough from nothing. Some people then incorrectly conclude that great talents *always* made great maps. And some n00bs take this way too seriously...

The ever present dilemma between "intelligent" and "fun" gameplay brings us to the inevitable conclusion that part of the community (sadly it seems it's smallers one) nurtures standards that are beyond what typical western kiddy whats to get from the game. Thus we have such instances as C&C Generals, which is pure c4rp, but gets played more than almost any other strategy.

 

[Zarkazm]

I could address Hourence's two questions and Bot 40's screenshot comparisons, and we could keep debating this for another 20 posts

No you could not, that's why you kept arguing but evaded those.

The "rating" paradigm here would seem to be skewed heavily left, towards the low ratings). I have no idea why that is (perhaps someone can explain it to me). My own personal rating system is a strictly linear one,

My personal rating system is heavily skewed towards the middle, and I still don't think DagnyTaggart's map would get a 3 from me if I actually bothered to play it. But I saw the screenshots, the layout and Proph's review, and they all tell me "Play DM-Helleth instead"
As for Proph's review, I mean that indirectly. I don't want to imply Proph would recommend Helleth. It's just what I make of his review.

The "Why aren't you hired by one of the major gaming companies" thing is sort of a lame dig: the pleasure of sandlot over-35 baseball players isn't invalidated because none of them are being scouted by the majors.

Their pleasure isn't. Their claim to greatness however, which - in difference to DagnyTaggart - they do not make, is.
Besides, this is the sandlot. There are amateur competitions too, and there are losers there too. And if one of them starts behaving like DagnyTaggart, he'll be put into his place as well. In fact, he'd probably be treated alot less nice than here, because we are used to dealing with 12 year olds with an attitude and tend to cut them some slack.

Plus the companies usually are overly impressed by the chrome as opposed to the gameplay,

So are the people who buy the games. That is why games that look like DagnyTaggart's map don't sell. Believe me, I have seen some. They looked like crap, they were offered for 5$, and they still didn't sell.

John DiFool

I am somewhat suspicious of people who sign their posts. I don't do it, for reasons I believe to be rather obvious.
If I cared who you are, I could find your nickname on the left and click on "profile" for further info.

 

[difool2]

[Signing posts is an old habit of mine from Usenet ]

I never suggested that Dagny's map was in danger of supplanting the
classics from the upper echelon; as with a lot of debates the discussion
gets polarized and simplified into "sucks!" vs. "rawks!". Actually upon
further play I have found myself getting a wee bit weary of the map
(and yes in the genre of multiple pathed CTF maps, there are better
ones). I just think some people here are being a wee bit unfair to
D., 'tis all, and the flamage tone in some of the posts doesn't help
matters. Perhaps gameplay would improve a bit if the scale of the
map was doubled? I see very little constructive criticism here (and
comparing it in screenshots to medieval-themed maps is pointless, as
T.O.S. is ostensibly a "futuristic" one, whatever that means).

Rating scales, like everything else, are subjective to start with. My
feeling is that, giving him a "2" means that there is very little play for
the maps which are demonstratably worse (unless you believe in
lumping all the truly suckage works into "1", with no further distinctions
needed). It gives the false impression (absent spending time reading
the actual review and/or comments) that it is broken in some
fundamental way, when in actuality it does work (barely perhaps, but
it does). Hence 4-6 is reasonable (and I will note that two commenters
gave it a 10 and a 9 before it was closed, so such a map DOES appeal
to some players). 2 IMHO is not, but YMMV as I implied.

My biggest peeve about the current gaming paradigm is that we are
drowning in chrome, but novel gameplay is becoming increasingly harder
to find (I will note that this isn't a defense of Dagny's work).
Gaming companies are in the position of recycling old tired themes, in
whatever genre you want to name: virtually nobody is pushing the
envelope in that direction. Hence you might make a map which will make
the gaming CEOs cream their pants, but it might be empty of gameplay,
but they won't likely notice that! UT2003 is a perfect example of
incremental game design (and many of the criticisms I have seen of
that game implicitly damn it for that reason, even if they aren't aware
that they are ).

Anyway, it's just one map, one which I'm not attached to, so I'll shut up
now. I'm just amused at some of the attitudes of the regulars around
here.

 

[Bot_40]

OK, you are sitll convinced this map is worth 4-6?
Given the new rating system, 4.5 is average. Examples of average maps given todays standards of UT maps are maps like DM-Pressure, DM-Conveyor, CTF-Command etc. etc. Just about all the maps that ship with the game can be classed as "Average" and could be given a rating of 4-5.
Now compare those maps to tubes of spam. Open your eyes and you'll see that in terms of lighting, texturing, layout, gameplay, theme, atmosphere etc. in just about every single catagory you can name, tubes of spam is completly owned by these stock epic maps. There's no way on earth it can be anywhere near the average rating of 4.5
Even DM-Pyramid would prolly get a 2.5 or a 3/10, and even that map which is THE worst map that comes with the game owns tubes of spam in terms of visuals. Gameplay wise the maps are about on par meaning I would not be likey to be able play either map for more than 10 seconds without serious risk of suicidal thoughts.

Just stop saying how the map has no serious flaws for a second, stop trying to point out that it has location IDs and zones which take a total of 20 seconds to add to the map and compare it to the stock maps that come with the game. Then just see that the stock maps are average and deserve a score between 3-6.

 

[GIdenJoe]

Let me introduce myself.

I'm GIdenJoe from Belgium and I play fps games since Duke3d.

I'm quite the clanfag as sometimes mentioned on this site so I also spend a great deal evaluating gameplay. And I also give a little more value to gameplay than gfx.

I've played UT instagib for two years and some nw in between and when 2k3 came out I started that, so yes I know quite alot what maps can be fun and what maps cannot.

I can say that the "genre" you're trying to promote here is like fun for 5 minutes tops. Since there is no room for moving, no cover and no way to quickly get onto another road, it really sucks.

In andaction you have no tactics but room to move, in your map you don't have tactics and you don't have room to move, so it's actually worse than that map.

My fave maps in ut1 were, coret, lavaG, codex and they all have a bit of looks don't they?

 

[Zlal]

I just want to reply to the gent quoting my Assault comment. I didn't say that the map ment a short game. I said it was fast paced. Assault is a fast game, you get to the point of conflict as fast as you can to keep people at bay. You defend the weak points and the ones that are open due to hammer jumping.

As for not knowing a spammy map, I guess your right, my little server has only hosted 1,174,100 games of UT in the past 2+ years.
(check the numbers if you want, http://www.thegamebox.net/stats/ut)

Sure, is Dagny's map up to your levels? No, I don't think anyone is saying that. Would it have been cool if one of you had taken him and shown him how to make the map better?

We all have to start somewhere, being a jerk about it doesn't help. Just look at the SPEWS guys.

Anyway, not trying to start a holy war. Just wanting to defend a quote with my name, and a friend who is learning.

LD
Owner and Admin of TheGameBox.Net/Org Servers.

This is a spammy map - The name of the map is Tubes_Of_Spam. The "tubes" are cramped, and no matter what type of weapon you may be using, a cramped hallway always allows for some level of spamming to go ahead.

You may have two year plus of server administration experience, but then again you are talking to mappers with equal experience. And dispite what some people may want you to think, a lot of mappers are good players and in clans. Good mappers, especially ones like Hourences who can get contract jobs in the industry, tend to know these kind of things.

You want me to go in depth and explain how to make this better? Give me an hour and I'll type it all out.
The fact is I know Dagny and his type. I could spend all that time and your friend who you say is "learning" will throw it back or even worse ignore out help. it happens all the time, and nothing ever changes.
Others have offered help already and dagny has simply dismissed it for people saying it is bad in spite. This is a sign of too big of an ego with no backup.

However, if Dagny is reading, hopefully he will realize that there IS help there, and if he asks, I would gladly offer advice.

My point (if mixed with a little flame earlier) is that you ego is holding you back and if you don't let it go, you will tumble down the melodramatic hill of forgotten mappers and laughed at fools, and believe me - the trip down is ugly.

 

[Zlal]

The fact of the matter is this map would need a lot of work to please people other than thorns/andaction fans. The main percentage of people who play UT would agree that the map needs work.

That is what counts.​

 

[Balton]

Anyway, it's just one map, one which I'm not attached to, so I'll shut up
now. I'm just amused at some of the attitudes of the regulars around
here.

aha, now that's funny. all we can do is to state what we think of a map and with this praise or critique the single mapper can see what he did wrong and do it better next time! simple isn't it? apparently NOT!
just look at dagnys posts and the posts of his "fans". their entire posts are made up with petting each others shoulders and ignorign the serious technical flaws. dagny seems to use this thread for linguistical masturbation and his two brainwashed fans are all hot 'n horny to suck his mental crap up!
at the whole time the actual problem, the map is avoided by the pro spam tubes cliqué! instead they try to cinvicne us that they are, when it comes to ut always right because they have a pc hooked to the internet running ut games all night and day. where's the actual logic? I just want to see dagny respond to bot 40's pics on page1!
I just want him to listen to all comments an suggestions made, to read all tutorials on gameplay, lighting and architecture, to visit the unreal wiki and read up a fair share of REAL ut knowledge and not to some humbug pseudo religious gibberish of some nerds who let their pc run all day long!
now imagine to be in this situation once every week and you'll realise that a few people easily get ill tempered at the sheer thickness of some UBER EGO mappers with no skills!
(btw. if dagny would come on my favourite art forum, which sports alot of great talents he'd be banned and assasinated in less than one hour! )

btw. "john di fool" you don't happen to be a fan of moebius' comics? especially the tical saga? compare the tical saga to a piece of paper with 3 strokes on and you'll see what tubes of spam lacks.

 

[Hourences]

ok you people are hopeless, now stop turning around the subject and keep repeating it cant be a 2(actually its a 1 imo but whatever)

none of the people who say that stuff seem to be able to answer some of our basic views and questions

A. you looked at bots screens ? pls tell us if they look better or not
and explain how the map can be a 5+ if the retail epic maps were a 5 only already, so your saying your map is better as retail maps, that means your better as some pro's at epic, cool

B. the only people who say that you dont need graphics or that leet gameplay is running around in mini tubes seem to be people who have barely any experience with making games themself, and know absolutely nothing about the technical side, and related things,
yet they really think they are damn right, what does this say about those people ? who do you think knows most, has most experience, and thus is most likely to have it correct ? who makes your games ? who creates your gameplay ?


Im amused as well, on how stupid some people are

 

[darth_weasel]

problem with arguing its about gameplay and not looks is that any mapper who is good enough to make great gameplay maps has the skills to make them look good too, and a mapper who cant make his map better than a few cubes and cylinders doesnt have the skills to make a good gameplay map. the two go hand in hand.

also,remember before you bust stock UT maps balls that they had to keep to a ~160 poly count. and considering that, they done very well to make the most of what they were allowed to within the technical boundaries.

about the rating system being skewed, to me, 4.5/5 being average, is not for a map that has "no fatal flaws". for purely having no fatal flaws and nothing else gives it a 1. 4.5/5 average are for maps with nothing as good as their bad points are bad. hence why it is average. bad and good (or a lack thereof) balance. and tubes of spam is not average, its bad points are many and hefty, and its good points are......



oh wait...

 

[Twrecks]

Despite the great literary license provided by this thread, it has become in grave danger of closure due to the resources it deprives of more worthy subjects. A simple, "this map suxxors" will suffice for future comments. Thank you for your attention, but it is nolonger required.

 

[Hourences]

a this map suxxor comment would be brainless, and would be almost flaming, and flaming has to be locked
while atm we are having a discussion, with arguments and fully typed out text, which is the reason why forums excist, discussing

 

[WHIPperSNAPper]

Quoting DiFool: I'm just amused at some of the attitudes of the regulars around here.

Quoting Aggressor: OMG, this thread is hilarious

Indeed.

 

[Twrecks]

While I agree with the purpose of these forums, which is an extension of the user comment fields in this case, my point is that this subject has been IMO fully covered and any further dicourse moot. I do appriciate the manner in which this subject has been handled. All involved are commended on their contributions. As to a why these forums exsist, a more metaphysical approach may need to be taken. As a brainless tard, that would be beyond unreal comprehension.

 

[MarkVV]

the samp map

I just DLed and played teh map.
my maps are horrid I just finished my first one, I would never submit it to NailiC (or submit NaliCity to it) But I like to play my own map, it's mine.
I think you suffer from the same problem.
This map in honestly not as great as you talk it up to be. I dont think any map could be.
I hope you are half joking
no offence, just learn to be objective about your own work.
keep building though.

 

[Balton]

I just DLed and played teh map.
my maps are horrid I just finished my first one, I would never submit it to NailiC (or submit NaliCity to it) But I like to play my own map, it's mine.
I think you suffer from the same problem.
This map in honestly not as great as you talk it up to be. I dont think any map could be.
I hope you are half joking
no offence, just learn to be objective about your own work.
keep building though.

you can still post screenshots on these boards and a few kind people will point some major flaws out. thus, the next time you'll do a much better map and so on. getting feedback. as long as you are objective about your own stuff(and you sure seems so) you'll get polite feedback and constructive criticism.
if someone goes the dagny-way he'll end up being everyones amusement-pie for 2 days.

 

[Bot_40]

3 things you need to be a decent mapper.

Patience
Ability to take constructive critisism to improve your work
Being self critical

You seem to have just 1 of those, patience, but you're lacking the other 2 so unless you learn then you ain't gonna go far to making a truely decent map. And the only way I can see you've got patience is that you took 6 months to make the map.
tbh though, I can't comprehend how it took 6 months to make a 96 brush/270 light map, especially seeing as I once managed to make a 942 brush/310 light map in a single day

 

[Zlal]

Indeed.

I thought you were witty, though obviously not.

 

[thebubba]

Whew! Enough. What a ride this has been.

Dagny has made a name for himself (though briefly, I suspect) in the UT community after all. Too bad it's not as a Mapper!

 

[Heisher]

DagnyTaggart:

Now, I agree with most of what the other mappers are saying here, but one thing I gotta say is I admire you're self assurdness.

This is so novel; complete opposites of opinion, in a NaliCity thread no less, and no one flaming!