Lack of really good custom content is sad

[Spank$hot_BT]

Your post was deleted? Thats crazy! War tourist referencing this thread as 'balance' is a joke. The thread is completely invalid from such a censored forum. Such bad form.

As far as map quality, sure there has been a number of maps with excellent production standards, but has there been any with truly excellent gameplay? ie the next rankin (or others of its standard) for ut3.

 

[Hourences]

Krodan was built before the game was released. The modeling and texturing took a month work in total, but not fulltime. The UED work including all lighting, materials, placing it all, sounds, particles, etc. took just 3 to 4 days for the whole thing.

The level is very efficient as it only uses a handful of assets and it is a natural environment, so it has to be less precise = faster. The only time consuming thing was the house. It is definitely possible to build a next gen level relatively quickly, you just need to plan it out well and work efficiently.

And if you use just prefabs, the time thing really isnt an excuse at all. I made the Spire for GOW with prefabs in under a week...

People do get scared off by the complexity though, but once you get past that initial barrier, it really isn't that much more time consuming than it used to be.

And the fact that there are over a 100 levels released is awesome, but the community did shrink a lot since UT1, and it is very noticable, regardless of those 100 levels in 3 months. The average number of levels released for UT1 a month is around a 100. The first ~two years that was about a 100 levels a week (!). And sure the complexity has risen, but so has the engine's fame, and the support for it. Doesn't seem to reflect itself in the mod community though...

My Krodan got what, 10 000 downloads perhaps? That's cool and I am very happy with its success, but I used to get 50 000+ back in the UT1 days. ONP hit the 250 000 downloads (!) mind you. I talked to HL2 level designer a month ago, and his singleplay level got him 120 000 downloads, years after release of the game, and he is not even a very well known level designer... I should go map HL2...


Modding faces the same challenges as PC gaming does. The overal modding community (across all major modding platforms) shrinks considerable. iD tech is struggling, and I hear a lot of people complain about modding HL/Source lately due to lacking support from Valve, outdated tools, releasing crashing tools and not fixing them for months on end, etc. (would be a good idea for Epic to try and get those bilions of HL modders into Unreal...)

A new MSU would definitely help, but Epic also used to be more involved with the whole thing. The ownage thing was neat and a great source of publicity for UT levels (although I am no fan of the UT2003 version...) and a kind of goal, source of motivation for the average level designer. I also remember a modding trip back in 2001 or whenever, where Epic invited some modders to have a look at the new engine and all. That's the kind of stuff that helps your community. More technical support does so as well. UDN is still not ready.... The books are not released yet... Not a problem for me, but the average joe would prolly enjoy that kind of stuff.

 

[WarTourist]

would be a good idea for Epic to try and get those bilions of HL modders into Unreal...

We completely agree .

 

[T2A`]

And if you use just prefabs, the time thing really isnt an excuse at all. I made the Spire for GOW with prefabs in under a week...

That really only applies to those who are as experienced at level design as you. Most everyone else struggles with it to make things work as best as possible. Given the complexity of the new UnrealEd and its features and in the amount of detail required to make a map up to par in visuals, the end result is average mappers aren't very relevant anymore.

Just look at Hointar. Mapped casually for 10 years and feels that making maps for UT3 is too hard and time consuming to be fun. I can easily imagine this applying to tons of people, and there are still plenty of people who can't run the game in the first place. D:

 

[ambershee]

We completely agree .

I don't. The number of HL2 modders with any real ability is shockingly small. The rest are on the bandwagon because it seems to be popular. Same with Crysis at the moment.

 

[MonsOlympus]

I think expecting retail level quality is alittle much, especially considering there are probably people new to the scene. I mean sure free bonuspacks and stuff are kewl but we paid for the title, its also good to see professionals making maps for games they like in their spare time.

I do love higher quality work dont get me wrong but I dont make a thread about it when things arnt up to my standards. The best to come out of all this would be community collaboration to improve things, I know for certain if a map rates low on a review site I probably wont download it. Being a modder and a player leaves me with little time to go online jumble through the mess of sites etc

I think a built in mod browser, rating and comments system should have been built into UT3. Hey I saw others mention the same thing on utforums a long while back, but alas, nothing came of it. Perhaps someone could mod something up, I know BradG is working on something like that but its not perfect either.

Theres certainly support from Epic for modders and modding, I can see that but I think currently with UT3 it has more to do with the delievery system than lack of talent. I kinda see it as the people who would be most likely to appreciate the lower quality mods cant get it on their PC and working anyways.

I will tell you now those UI's for mutators you so dearly love do take a fair bit of time to make, even if alot of it is copy/paste, 2k4 did better in that respect I guess but I am working to try and make it easier to build mutator UI's quicker using code. Not only is this for me though, I can appreciate that some people are more computer literate than others, mind you I am of the belief that mutators dont need a zillion and one options to be fun!

Still the delievery system of mods on a whole is not so good, so even if I work to make all my UI's nice and easy to use, someone might have a problem getting them on their PC and working. The same goes for maps as well hey, maybe its easier on the PS3 though!

 

[BigDragon]

I said CASUAL mappers, what you described is YOU. A determined mapper with aspirations of getting into the industry (if i remember your older posts correctly) willing to set aside the necessary time over a course of months to produce high quality, fully custom map absolutely does not equal a CASUAL mapper. Someone who simply doesn't have the time or inclination to be what you define as 'determined' yet still wants to create a quality map.

I retract the below message. I completely misinterpreted what Spank$hot_BT was saying. My mistake.
You're basing judgment here on the single warm-up map that I released, which wasn't very good and openly admitted it wasn't supposed to be great. My strength has always been in terrain environments, not futuristic structures. I haven't had months and months of time ahead of release to work with UE3 products like the veterans have. I had never worked with UE3 before and I hadn't had a game to map for for over a year. You go jump into an editor you haven't used before and an engine that's new to you and see if you can come up with something half-way decent.

You're right, I do not have any industry aspirations. I like my current job. My job is recession proof, income is automatically adjusted for inflation without me needing ask for a raise, and my job is future proof. I get free education to stay on top of the latest technology, trends, and techniques. In the rare event that something happens and I lose my job, I have a kind of certification that ensures other companies will be clamoring to hire me regardless of skill just because I have that certification. On top of that, helicopter pilots are in demand. I work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and if I work overtime I get paid for it. Why in the world would I want to work in the games industry when things are so volatile compared to where I'm at now? I have more free time than most people out there and I chose to use it helping exotic animals and also with creating stuff to make a game more enjoyable for me, my harshest critic.

You don't have to have industry aspirations to be determined for quality. Unfortunately, I don't have a leg to stand on at the moment because I haven't released anything exceptional, yet, but it's coming for Crysis. I'm still texturing all that custom content I'm putting into my map. Building an island resort city cannot be done overnight and that's' exactly what I'm doing right now. Obviously I'm going to put a lot more effort into something when there's a contest dangling in front of my face rather than a game who's online servers routinely show up as zero people playing and can't even get a simple thing (like playing an ambient sound effect) right.

 

[Anuban]

You can close this thread if you want to ... it has more than served its purpose ... thank you again everyone who contributed whether I agreed with you or not I appreciate your commentary. This was a very informative thread imo ... glad I started it. See you on another thread ... at some point.

Edit: I really appreciate Hourences viewpoints ... I am glad to see someone who is so highly respected in the Unreal community understand what I was saying so well. I definitely agree with what you said about "CliffyB's Ownage" Awards ... man did that ever motivate folks ... too bad CliifyB has gotten to big to do that anymore. Someone needs to talk to him and get him to start that up to help get UT3 moving and like you said grab those unhappy HL2 and id Mappers.

Just look at Hointar. Mapped casually for 10 years and feels that making maps for UT3 is too hard and time consuming to be fun. I can easily imagine this applying to tons of people, and there are still plenty of people who can't run the game in the first place. D:

Well that just sucks!!! I love that dude's work ... DM-Appolyon Temple is one of my most played UT2k4 levels and his ONS work is fantastic ... I was actually hoping for a remake of ONS-RomanRoads ... This is what I am concerned about. Couple this with what Hourences pointed out about the lack of good documentation and the community takes a hit in both the quantity and the quality of the content. Hopefully a thread like this makes people aware of the issue (or more aware or reminds them) and at least gets folks talking on some level ... where it goes from there is hopefully someplace positive.

 

[Spank$hot_BT]

You're basing judgment here on the single warm-up map that I released, which wasn't very good and openly admitted it wasn't supposed to be great.

errm.. just to clarify BD, i was saying you ARE a determined mapper, who wants to strive for high quality full custom content, with industry aspirations, etc, etc, etc. As opposed to a casual mapper, such as me.

 

[Kantham]

but after the eleventyhundred time the UT3 editor mysteriously crashed on me my mapping came to a halt. =/

You sure are not patient at all. I hardly ever get a crash from UT3ED from now on. Use the Undo function responsibly and save often. Hell, things like opening packages is almost non-doable in GoWED. Go try it out and give me some news...

 

[BigDragon]

errm.. just to clarify BD, i was saying you ARE a determined mapper, who wants to strive for high quality full custom content, with industry aspirations, etc, etc, etc. As opposed to a casual mapper, such as me.

Oh! I'm sorry! I completely misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

Sorry!

 

[osirisrt]

That really only applies to those who are as experienced at level design as you. Most everyone else struggles with it to make things work as best as possible. Given the complexity of the new UnrealEd and its features and in the amount of detail required to make a map up to par in visuals, the end result is average mappers aren't very relevant anymore.

Agree. i like to make sure i get things reasonably right, and i take my time. Always have since back to unreal1. Using stock items doesnt particularly mean you can throw maps out pretty quick just because its stock stuff. My map im making at moment which i plan on release around this weekend hopefully, ive worked on since around xmas day. about 2 months.

 

[Molgan]

You sure are not patient at all. I hardly ever get a crash from UT3ED from now on. Use the Undo function responsibly and save often. Hell, things like opening packages is almost non-doable in GoWED. Go try it out and give me some news...

The random out of the blue crashes doesn't happen very often, but I can't play maps in-editor anymore. Have refreshed drivers and cleaned the ini's. Useunpublished crashes the comp and the logs don't help, and I can't be arsed to cook the map every time I want to test drive it. So no, not very patient.

 

[Kantham]

The random out of the blue crashes doesn't happen very often, but I can't play maps in-editor anymore. Have refreshed drivers and cleaned the ini's. Useunpublished crashes the comp and the logs don't help, and I can't be arsed to cook the map every time I want to test drive it. So no, not very patient.

Well in THAT case, no, it's different. I wouldn't be patient for that either.

 

[ambershee]

The random out of the blue crashes doesn't happen very often, but I can't play maps in-editor anymore. Have refreshed drivers and cleaned the ini's. Useunpublished crashes the comp and the logs don't help, and I can't be arsed to cook the map every time I want to test drive it. So no, not very patient.

You don't have to cook a map to play it in UT3.

 

[Alhanalem]

but I was also talking about Original maps (not remakes).

This is a little far back but I need to address this- Completely new ideas are great yes, but if you're just talking about quality of work- Most of these "remakes" were built from scratch, it's not like they were just ported with minimal work like was common in UT2Kx. They still took just as long to make as any of the original ideas that have come out, they still deserve recognition.

 

[Unknown Target]

I would have liked some streamlining improvements for UED4. I mean, it's relatively easy as it is now, but it could definitely use some improvements. I know it's geared towards industry pros, but they really want the user community to make stuff, so it'd be great for some easier features on that end. Some better integration with programs like Sketchup, an easier BSP creation system (yes, I know it's easy now, but it could be even easier), maybe just color changes to make the interface more pleasing and easier to navigate. I would've also loved something similar to modo301's interface, with the tabbed viewing types at the top, and one of the options being one giant screen, rather than having to use the quad-view (Altho I'm sure it can be scaled) all the time.

 

[ShredPrince]

After pointing out where UT3/UE3 are problematic to mappers, and high volume content creation, I MUST point out one HUGE FACT.

What other game are you able to make the most insane, fun, and cool looking levels. What other game gives you total control to tweak it how you see fit. I know the HL series does this to an extent, but it's no UT/UE.

So let me simply state, that content creation for UT3 may be lower than PAST titles, but more than you'll find with any other game on the market. PERIOD

 

[Phopojijo]

Yikes! If you are doing what I think you are doing we're going to need boxes of Depends just to complete a capture.

Not really... it's very map dependent.

Basically there's a building in the center-side of the map with an Onslaught (Warfare) node. In the base there's a teleporter to the flag room. By default it allows everyone through. If the Onslaught Node is your color -- it'll only allow your team through.... else it'll probably gib {telefrag} you. Once in the flag room -- there's a jump-pad to get out. The onslaught node can be in any state... you've got the flag... they're SoL.

Actually I'm wondering if it'll be a bit too HARD to defend since once the flag is grabbed I basically propel you to no-man's land... I've been thinking for a way I can keep you in the enemy's turf for a couple of seconds at least... give the defenders SOME chance.

 

[esJ]

1) Lack of Mod/TC support/documentation out of the box. People know how now, but it took a while.

...There's TC support? I thought it was being added in a later patch?

There's a lot of "mods" out there, but most of them are poorly laid out maps or mutators it looks like. Sure, when you count them it's a lot of stuff, but when you critique the quality there's really not much quality stuff.

True, but then again there has never exactly been an abundance of experienced unrealscript programmers around, which kind of impairs what you can do code-wise as a mod team.

Modding faces the same challenges as PC gaming does. The overal modding community (across all major modding platforms) shrinks considerable. iD tech is struggling, and I hear a lot of people complain about modding HL/Source lately due to lacking support from Valve, outdated tools, releasing crashing tools and not fixing them for months on end, etc. (would be a good idea for Epic to try and get those bilions of HL modders into Unreal...)

A new MSU would definitely help, but Epic also used to be more involved with the whole thing. The ownage thing was neat and a great source of publicity for UT levels (although I am no fan of the UT2003 version...) and a kind of goal, source of motivation for the average level designer. I also remember a modding trip back in 2001 or whenever, where Epic invited some modders to have a look at the new engine and all. That's the kind of stuff that helps your community. More technical support does so as well. UDN is still not ready.... The books are not released yet... Not a problem for me, but the average joe would prolly enjoy that kind of stuff.

Coming recently from the HL2 modding scene (Zombie Panic, Unreleased Mod of the Year 2007) I've kind of seen both sides of the story, as regards to what I'd call the "big two" engines for FPS modding, Unreal and Source.

Source :
+ Brilliant engine documentation (Valve ERC)
+ Widely known programming language (C++)
+/- SDK Tools (often broken/buggy, although when they work, they work well).
- Over-complicated art pipeline

Unreal :
+ Incredibly simple and streamlined art pipeline
+ UED4 (Haven't used it much personally, it seems stable powerful + intuitive)
- Very niche scripting language
- Massively lacking engine documentation

So, as you can see (at first glace at least) they're almost the opposite of each other. Unreal has the potential to be a massively better engine choice for most mods - and this is the crucial part - given a proportional amount of support from Epic.
I don't think I've even played retail UT3 yet - I pre-ordered the CE solely for the tutorials and SDK stuff.

This is the big thing though, you aren't going to see anywhere near the amount of mods for UT3 simply because of the fact that a) in the modding community, programmers are practically gold-dust and b) even if you manage to find a talented, experienced programmer to work on your mod ... what are the chances that they're going to know UnrealScript?
It's obvious that Source is going to have a bigger modding community, because the barrier-to-entry in terms of programming is a lot smaller. Unreal is more likely to have comparatively a lot more custom content, but less TC mods.

I agree that a new MSU would help the situation, but Epic have to realise that the Unreal modding scene has shrunk massively from the heydays of 2k3/2k4 and it is an aspect of their community which they need to actively support in order to keep it from dying altogether.