Its great and all but it could be better (Community WeaponPack1)

[Nukeproof]

I can personally understand the teams frustration quite well. Its the same thing everytime something 'big' is released:

A lot of 'Thanx!' and 'Cool!' post in the first 2 days and a never ending ceremony of complaining in the next weeks about increasingly minor things... I guess that's the way people are

To my understanding the addition of weapons has been done with great foresight, not to render any of the old weapons useless and still have unique features for the new additions. This holds true for the choice and the implementation of the weapons. I definitely don't see any of the costume weapons beeing overpowered. If you feel its too weak stick to what you used before (that's what I sadly do with the MAG 7 because I suck with it )

IRL I have hardly seen any of the weapons from close distance, so I am easy to please, but all this nitpicking about tiny things is beyond my understanding... if the team really responded to all those detail requests we would probably end up with a very small share of the additions we get for free.

Keep it going INF-mod team, we love you for your great work although we - the emotional retarded community - are mostly unable to show our appreciation!

 

[Nukeproof]

Sentry studios deicided to give unrealistically high recoils to counter the fact you can compensate this easily. IMO it's a cheap hack to solve a problem the wrong way around. By making the recoil realistic, we did not use SS's way to bypass the recoil correction problem, thus making it seem smaller to a player correcting for recoil. I don't know if i'm clear about this, but in brief, if you want realistic recoils there isn't much that can be done about it without modifing the game much more considerably.

it's kind of offtopic and just for my personel curiosity, but how would you do the recoil system if you would start all over?

 

[ecale3]

I would start by having recoil kick towards the shoulder its pressed against (muzzle kicks right a bit on a right handed person for example) to go with its upward kick. This with a slight bit of "jiggle" during prolonged full auto fire would probably create better fire discipline in players.

 

[Crowze]

Difficult one there, especially since it's related to such a varied thing as mouse type and speed. Personally I'd ignore any downward mouse movements while firing (or maybe put a low maximum rate on it), and have the recoil and compensation handled by the game itself.

 

[Nukeproof]

Well, the game itself handling recoil is what just any other game out there does...

What I really like about the INF approach, is the point that it 'puts you closer to the soldier' you are playing. And it uses additional skills to deal with it.

In lack of RL experience I can't judge about the actual recoil pattern but the concept itself makes kind of sence to me: The player has to compensate the gun movement and introduces more inaccuracy by dragging the mouse. The whole proceedure is subject to training and skills.

 

[MP_Duke]

I didn't give you a line of ****. I welcome your criticism.
And you don't have to double-space, this isn't a school assignment, dildo boy.

Damn Duke...

I'm gonna go get pumped, listen to Metallica and make my own M4A1!!! You showed me (and the community!)

And remember kids, the straight facts and general consensus will get you flamed.

You all just proved my point, and I didn't even have to be an ******* to do it.

But on a more interesting note: Which Nintendo cereal did you like more? The Mario half or the Zelda half?

 

[geogob]

it's kind of offtopic and just for my personel curiosity, but how would you do the recoil system if you would start all over?

to be honnest, I wouldn't know. I haven't worked enough with this engine to know all its capabilities. Getting that right would be pushing the engine to its limits... perhaps someone like yurch, toad, duke or beppo would have a better idea. The first thing I'd try would be to dynamically reduce the mouvement sensitivity during firing. I don't know if that would work or if it is possible, put it's the first idea i'd try out.


At Cracwhore: You know, i'M very disapointed. We all gave you clear and reasonable anwsers... I feel that they didn't please you because we didn't turn around 180° and say "ok we'll add this, we'll add that, we'll remove this... etc." Now chill a little, because if you had any credibility or seemed to have good intentions when you posted your rant, this is fading away now. For the sake of those in the name of which you talked, don't go to far.

 

[Keganator]

Congratulations INF Mod team, you've encountered what every team that has ever created a game, expansion, mutator, or addon has experienced: people who do not share your 'vision'. It's inevitable. It's one reason I decided to step back from making things. Some people will like what you like, some will have suggestions, and those suggestions will be offered up in various ways. How you handle it is up to you. Let me offer a suggestion.

Mychaeel's Modding Etiquette.

This is one thing I wish all mod teams followed. Here's the most important place. Emphasis in italics are mine.

Dealing With Critics

After your mod is released, you'll get all sorts of feedback – both positive and negative. You can reduce the negative feedback to a minimum by following the advice in the section above (keep in mind: disappointed users will be the least forgiving ones), but even then there'll still be people who just don't like your mod, or some aspects of it.

First off, ignore the trolls among them. You can recognize them by their habitat and their behavior; since their goal is to provoke an (offended) reaction, they'll say their piece where a lot of people can read it, and it will be designed to insult you. Just ignore trolls. They're perfectly aware of what they're doing, and what they want you to do, and you're in no position to insult them by questioning their statement's validity. Mock them, gently, with a smile on your face, if you like – that'll drive them mad. Just by no means take them seriously or behave that way.

But not everybody publicly bashing your work is a troll; be very careful before you dismiss somebody's criticism as simple trolling. (It's all too easy to go that way rather than facing the fact that people are genuinely unhappy with your mod.) There's practically no other reason for somebody not liking your mod and expressing it in your face than being disappointed by it. Disappointment is the result of expectations that weren't met. And there are two ways you can deal with that: Either lower the expectations (won't help people who already had them), or meet them.

There are a couple of things you should never tell people criticising your work:

* "Do it better." The different roles of developers and users are clearly defined: You (the developer) are investing time in order to get a positive response; the user is investing time in order to be entertained. If your mod fails to deliver the latter to the user, you can't expect the user to deliver the first to you. It's not a matter of switching roles.
* "It's just a beta/an alpha." Alpha and beta versions shouldn't be released to the general public in the first place (see below). In any case, that your released product is still in alpha or beta stage certainly doesn't invalidate users' complaints or make the developers any less responsible for it, so pointing out that "it's just a beta" is a pointless thing to do.
* "You didn't pay; you're not entitled to complain." Remember what I wrote above about having a deal with your users – they don't owe you, you don't owe them, until they invest time and work in trying to get your mod up and running. They have every right to complain if that investment turns out to be wasted. (If you actually do deliver what you promised though, it's your turn to have a right to get a positive response from them.)

Those of us who play these games have every right to complain, and they will. You've seen the comments about Infiltration in the past, and how they were all but passed off by the Infiltration team. Crac and other people making comments about the game are making their piece not because they hate the game, the weapons, it's because they want to see them improved. The M4A1 thing *is* an issue. People have problems with it, and you cannot deny that. Now, how you respond to it *is* up to you. BUT: There's no reason to get heated over it, riddicule your fans, or belittle them for their opinions. Responding with anger is not the way to gain respect among this or any other community. (For the ancient among us, remember Optimizer?).

 

[spm1138]

Crac isn't a "fan" AFAIK.

There seems to be some long-standing animosity between him and Duke.

Something to do with pink dildos?

 

[cracwhore]

Rebuttal

And you don't have to double-space, this isn't a school assignment, dildo boy.

"IIRC" as they say...in school, they teach you to double-space and start a new paragraph with a subject change. For Example:

Correct Way:
"I like warm weather. It's fun and happy."

"Did you go to the bank today? You owe me $13 still."

Incorrect Way:
"Maybe you were homeschooled? By rednecks? It's not a matter of me double-spacing just to double-space, but rather, the way our written language works. I think ducks are cool! Do you like the PT Cruiser? I think it's bad-ass! I was in boyscouts."

See? That's just silly. Sometimes, you need those spaces.

I'm just trying to make a simple point about the mod team and SS. You guys claim that SS never listens or does anything, then you go and do exactly the same thing. If something's wrong, it's wrong. And the community points these things out, only to be hounded. Sure, you released the weapons pack. And I'm sure there are people out there that are 100% happy with it. Those are the humble nice guys (shan). It's expected. I love what you guys are doing and I hope to help out some when I have free time. Being a fellow artist, I understand that criticism is a necessary part of creation. It's not that I want these weapons to be created how I think they should be created. Myself (along with a lot of other people) would just like them to behave like the stock SS weapons in terms of switching-time, etc. If you can't see for yourself the problems I've presented, then I imagine you won't fix them. Just don't act like the holy ghost of INF when your general reply to criticism is "don't care" and "**** off".

Some suggestions are stupid. For example, the "black M93R", which I've never even seen a photo of in my life.

Other suggestions are valid. For example, the ROF switching animation on the M4 being too dramatic and unrealistic.

We, as the gamers, can be harsh sometimes, I understand that. But this is the INF community. You have to expect that.

"You can't please everybody". That's true, but you can come pretty damn close.

I feel that they didn't please you because we didn't turn around 180° and say "ok we'll add this, we'll add that, we'll remove this... etc."

We have Duke 3D sounds in our game now. I remember being told they were only temporary when I asked about them last time. Yet, here I am playing on the public servers, enjoying the full Duke 3D sfx experience, as I did as a child playing Duke 3D.

"But it's only two or three sounds! Get off of it!"

You're right...INF needs Duke 3D sounds. I don't know what I was thinking.

My point is: Something like a Duke 3D sound being used for this game is beyond ridiculous. And even when I asked politely to have things like this removed from the game, the response is the same as if I had asked with a poor choice of words, like "**** off with your Duke 3D sounds you feg." At first, I thought "ahh, he's just having some fun. They'll be removed and replaced with something more realistic."

Nope. They're still there. And it still ruins the atmosphere INF tries to create.

My rants and complaints aren't so somebody creates my personal vision of INF. I feel like I've only debated valid points here, and I can understand that you guys are stressed and don't want to go back to fix/change things when there are more guns to be made.

But please, if anything, learn a lesson from the first release. It has it's problems. We addressed them and we were blown off. That's like making a retail game and then telling the people that bought it to "sod off" when they report a problem or opinion to you. If any of you plan on going into the gaming business, you'll find out that doing such things are bad career choices.

Anyway, have a good one.

 

[shan]

That modding etequitte page was an interesting read. He is a pretty smart guy and he definately has the right idea. I agree with Keg that all modding teams could learn something from it.

 

[ecale3]

I just want to make something clear. our weapons will not ever mimic the SS weapons exactly, we will try different things and new ideas. we are not trying to do the same old thing, we are adding. Each new weapons may have inconsistencies with the other weapons we make, because as new ideas come along, we try them, to see if perhaps the new way is better.

I can't help it if you guys don't like it, and as we stated before, report bugs and errors and even new ideas, but if we say no, it means no, and if we say golly gee thats a good idea it doesn't mean it will or can be implemented.

We have never ignored the community, nor have we kept you out of the loop, and while i understand that you guys want everything about this game to be super duper awesome cool fantastic and whatever, the weapons are never ever going to be perfect, and sometimes you guys will have to settle for pretty damn good. If you want a say in the weapon's implementation during the creation process learn to animate, skin, or code...or all three. If you can contribute in one of those three areas, we would gladly have you aboard, if you can only model, you'll find it much more difficult as we have like 50 bazillion modellers anyway. Skinning is a big one by the way, Kow is the only one making skins for the most part (and he's very good, so i hope you know your shit).

 

[mat69]

Yes it is important how you react, but it is also important how you act.
For example ecale3's big - in the meaning big - post is simply annyoing!
Does your message consist of less information if you write it in a smaller size? Do you think many people are going to read it, if the letters are so big - especially with low resolutions?
geogob's post had more than 1000 words and I think it was a good read. Yes I understand if you don't want to write so many words and if you don't want to copy your answers from the other two threads but this is the way of pissing us, the readers, off.

Some of your improvements remind me of the discussion of the holes on the M16A4 "swiss cheese" (or how it is called) and I think this discussion was stupid.
Ideas can sound interesting at a first glance but I think most of you, me included, don't know how much work it is to implement different things and discussing then on imo minor issues the whole time is nerving.

I'm happy with the weapons, I like the MicroUzi, the others aren't my taste, but that's the great thing in INF, I do the loadouts. And as someone has posted before, it's a Catch, it's Catch-22, some people think that the M4 is too strong while others think it has too many disadvantages, but the same discussion is not only bound to the M4, people comment about the Sniper rifles, some say it's too hard and others say the opposite.

 

[ecale3]

I posted it big since i will say the same thing 200 times and seem to be ignored every time. I bet people saw that one.

 

[Logan6]

Heh, the fun goes ever on.

Well, to those who didn't like my story of why I like to carry an AKM, **** you. Its not like you have any lives anyway. And if you don't think there are gators in Texas, feel free to wade through some of the more native creeks and marshes I think we killed the last gators near where I lived about 20 years ago, but Im not taking any chances. Nature has a way of coming back. As for the cows, yeah this is all owned, fenced in property but like that makes any difference. As for being an expert, when did I ever say I was an expert? And like I believe any of you are! But as for the AKM, after shooting hundreds of rounds through it, yeah I would say I know the recoil for it pretty well, and much better than most of you. Except maybe for some certain arabs and russians Not to mention yeah I know it on full auto too, an aimed 6 round burst on a converted SKS got out of hand and almost threw me on my back.

Well on the weapons, pretty nice on the M4. I guess I take back my arguement about the recoil, it seems pretty fair. Love the model.

 

[Demosthanese]

Those reflex sights are supposed to have an amber dot, not a red one. How is it "As real
as it gets" if people don't even color the weapons correctly? The long animation on the
UZI switch do to the floating hand is rediculous. And the pentaganal rear sight of the M4
islame. It's been said that the sight picture is where the weapon needs the most detail,
and the M4 is a nice **** you to that ideal.

I propose we change the slogan:
"Infiltration: As Lazy as it Gets"

 

[spm1138]

Cheers folks.

And here was me wanting to play with the Inf Weapon Mod team's next pack with teh M24 and whatnot in it.

Ah well.

 

[Logan6]

Ahh, an M24 would be verrryyyyyy veerrrrryyyyyyyyyy nice!

As a suggestion for a new sniper rifle though, something long range in .338 magnum with a 6x24x50mm scope would be nice.

Also, an M240 beltfed tossed in would be supreme.

Have to agree with Diamantohoses about the sight picture should be the most detailed part, though I think he could have said it a little nicer.

Hah, but who am I kidding, no ones ever civil here

 

[AlmostAlive]

Thanks, Demo. That really needed to be said. If that doesn't inspire them to continue making weapons for Infiltration, I don't know what will.

If you're gonna bitch like that, you better have something up your sleeve that shows you can do better.

 

[Keganator]

I think what demo meant to say was, "How difficult is it to switch "red" to "amber" on a texture!??!?".