Its great and all but it could be better (Community WeaponPack1)

[Logan6]

@Salad,

well as for the fire fight thing, yeah in game. I run out of ammo firing at someone, then have to go for my pistol, which is much quicker than trying to reload. Can be a real life saver if theres no cover available. I just wish they would make it more realistic where you could drop your rifle and go for your pistol, which would actually take a little longer than they have it right now.

As for carrying my rifle around a lot, yeah I do. Until recently I was living in the backwoods of Texas. People like to carry around here, and sometimes for good reason. Cougars, wild dogs, coyotes, bulls, alligators, and the occassional killer rabbit roam free in the wild lands behind my house ( where I like to roam and shoot occassionally ). Hell, I got chased for half a mile back to my house once by a pack of coyotes that had picked up my scent. Had stayed out a little too late and I guess they were hungry or just wanted to figure who was in their territory. So you get pretty good with weapons and tactics back here, not to mention numerous war games with BB guns in your youth. Those things hurt.
As for the recoil of the shortened AKM in game, I think its pretty realistic. So like I said, I think the SS team may have a little too much recoil on the M16A2, but I think the recoil on the M4 is a little too low.

 

[AlmostAlive]

And believe me as much as it weighs with the drum mag in it, it drops fast.

Now that's a classic. Mr. self-declared weapons expert, have you actually fired any of the weapons you mention in your posts? Trying to come off as an expert on these forums can be, no, is very difficult. If you don't know what you are talking about it's usually better to ask rather than present fiction as fact. It might work on your average Counterstrike or TO forum, but around here you'll sink pretty fast.

 

[gal-z]

Oh yeah the AKMSU is the only inf weapon where u actually feel the recoil, yet we still need someone who actually fired it to tell us if that's enough recoil or IRL there's more recoil.

 

[gal-z]

BTW, the new M16A2/m203 40mm grenades seem to not be working. Also why can't we have same grenade types for both M16A2, M16A4 and... M4?

 

[salad]

Now that's funny. He still believes Aristotle I guess. Galileo be damned!

I've got a few friends in Texas, what part did you live in that had cougars, wild dogs, coyotes, alligators, and bulls roaming around? And how many of them did you shoot?

Most people consider "backwoods" Texas to be in the Eastern part, since that's where the woods actually are. Cougars aren't found much, if at all, in East Texas, but I guess there could be a few here or there. They're more West Texas and panhandle critters though.

Coyotes are found all over the damned country, but they tend to stick to terrain like West Texas and the panhandle as well. Of course they are great about living off of humanity too. However, they aren't typically pack animals. They may form loose family groups that disband quickly after hunts, if they group together at all. They're usually just alone or in pairs on hunts (they mate for life, you know). They have been known to group together from time to time to take down big prey. Sounds like you got lucky!

Where I get confused is with the gaters. They don't typically share ranges with puma/cougars/mountain lions. There is a bit of overlapping around Dallas, San Antonio, Dallas, and maybe Laredo, but they're fairly rare there. It just seems an odd combo unless you've got a lot of land with varied terrain and geography.

Oh, and were the bulls free range or something? Most ranchers fence theirs in these days I'm told. And the ranchers I know would get very upset if someone shot one of their bulls while on their land.

And what tactics did you use on these critters that would be useful on a modern battlefield? I'd like some descriptions or diagrams if you have the time. Maybe it can help me improve my game a bit or help me survive in the wild.

 

[geogob]

we didn't touch the m16a2/m203. If you wan't other grenade type, you need yurch mutator.

For the M16A4, that was a choice we did. Even if we don't all agree with it (I don't for one), I don't mind. It give some differences to the game and a good reason to pack an m16a2 from time to time. I use it for HEDP and HE Airburst type grenades. In the end it's not a bad idea.

For the m4, the reason why the isn't an m203 attachement for it has been discussed already.

 

[gal-z]

For the m4, the reason why the isn't an m203 attachement for it has been discussed already.

Please give me the reason or a link to it, if you've read/discussed this already.
Anyway in Israel the M4A1 is a standard issue weapon, and therefore gets used with m203 for grenaiders. M4A1/m203 isn't rare at all here, unlike what www.isayeret.com say, since this site is a little (1-2 years of no update I think) old.

 

[ecale3]

because A. we didn't want to make our own weapon (M16A4) obsolete

B. we didn't want to hear people whine about the Superweapon M4

 

[gal-z]

because A. we didn't want to make our own weapon (M16A4) obsolete

B. we didn't want to hear people whine about the Superweapon M4

But M4A1 does make M16A4 absolete in Israel at least. Americans still use M16A4 for it's slightly longer maximum effective range and slightly higher velocity.
As for whining, people would always while if they want to, no matter how good your work is. But at least make it so people complain about "this is overpowered" while being unable to say "this is unrealistic"

 

[Crowze]

Right, I've had more than I can take of this. There are now 3 (or more, have I missed any?) threads about people complaining about the weapon pack. If anyone has any more problems like the skin of the M93R is too light, or the recoil on the M4 is a bit too low, then I will point them in the direction of the readme (which I assume you haven't read) and tell them where they can shove their suggestions.

 

[MP_Duke]

Honestly, I'm better with the M16A4 than with the M4, so swisscheese still has precedence. I'd rather take a P90 for full-auto. But when I'm done with it, the MP5A4 will be my choice for full-auto.

 

[(SDS)benmcl]

Guys if you don't like the weapon pack then don't ****ing use it. Get together with like minded souls, learn to model, btw there are free and good 3d modeling programs available, learn to texture, animate and code. Then when you done all that take time out from your little lives and do something usefull and put out your own weapon pack.

 

[shan]

Until recently I was living in the backwoods of Texas. People like to carry around here, and sometimes for good reason. Cougars, wild dogs, coyotes, bulls, alligators

:rofl: Dude, thanks for that post, I almost fell off my chair when I read it. Too funny. You should write scripts.

 

[cracwhore]

Rant Rant Rant

and put out your own weapon pack.

Orrrrrrr, we could all get together with the people taking time out of their lives to make these, point out what's wrong with them, ask them to fix them and hope that they do.

But you're right, telling everybody to **** off and put objects in their ass is what knits a tight community...

And boy, do I ever want 13 different takes on the M4A1. I'm presently getting a team together to make a new M4A1 with irons and the M203. I hope everybody else does the same (instead of kindly asking the people who made this one to fix a few things). Maybe before the year is over, we can have 3 or 4 different versions of the M4A1!!!!

Seriously, we're happy that you guys are doing this stuff, we really are. But the next person to say "make your own" is going to get molested by a dirty old man...

If you expected to release this weapons pack and not get any criticism, I'm afraid you're working for the wrong community.

The safety toggle for the M4 is something I dislike. The example has been made that when you empty the rifle, the safety switch is still being used, which causes a further delay in weapon switching. It's cool when you start a map, but not all the time (especially in panic situations). The "turn the rifle 40 degrees to switch ROF" animation needs to go as well. I don't know anybody that is trained with a rifle that turns their gun over like that. I was always under the impression that when you're trained with a firearm, you know where everything is. I don't know why you insist on keeping this feature, when clearly the majority of us "whiners" dislike it...but as you say, "make your own" or "don't use it". The switch for ROF doesn't even need to be animated. I understood you decided to do so as a "creative choice", and that's fine...but seriously, nobody turns their rifle over like that. If the finger animates, neat. But obstructing your view to look for a switch that your thumb is resting on is silly..especially since you're a trained expert with the weapon already.

My point is: You're making these guns for everybody to enjoy (yourself included, yes, I know). You have to model things realistically. But you also have to keep in mind that the guns should behave somewhat like the SS weapons. So while we welcome the addition of the "realistic safety switch of doom", you have to realize that the original weapons (and some of your own in the pack) do not have this switch, which makes it annoying for a lot of us to use the M4 that we've oh-so-desired for so long. Yes, we understand that if you were to sling the rifle on your back, IRL, you would most likely safety it. Cool. Thanks for trying to make weapon switching more realistc. But why does the M-16A4 not have this safety "feature"? It's a handicap, and a lot of us think so.

Yes, weapon switching is too fast...but making the M4 and the Micro UZI (with the floating hands animation) the only weapons truely representing that lag at all is just silly. If you're going to do something like a safety switch that presents a lag time between weapon switching, it has to be on all of the weapons and it has to be appropriately implemented (safety on a dry weapon = dumb), otherwise, it's just another reason not to take the M4A1, which we'd like to be using. If it's not possible to code "when weapon = dry or when QA is activated, do not activate safety" then leave it out entirely.

It's your first release, and we're all glad we at least have something. We would, however, like you to at least consider our opinions instead of just telling us to **** off. So, please, consider the problems we have with these weapons as constructive criticism. And please consider making changes when you have the time.

If you're not happy with how this community has responded to your gift, make your own community.

...dammit, now a dirty old man is going to molest me...

......flame on.

 

[(SDS)benmcl]

True but when the team says something is not going to be changed don;t keep going on about it.

Also I am not part of the team, nor do I have the talents or skills to ever be.

 

[MP_Duke]

cracwhore, you think the M4A1 is handicapped? That's cool I guess. Maybe you can get together with the people who think the M4 is superior and explain your side of the story, and they can explain their side, so in the end you might have an amalgamation of aholed opinions that balances the gun to make you a bunch of happy ****s?

When I script the weapons, I keep in mind how the original weapons are and I fit the new ones into the framework. Some people want realism, others want balance. It's a Catch-22. We consider to change things, but when there's a conflict of interest, it's tough to decide.

I'm quite used to the argument and the flaming, it fuels the fire. I'll continue as I've always have claiming nothing about nothing, simply because I like this game.

 

[ecale3]

Just a pointer for everyone submitting "constructive criticism" And i'm going to put it in big bold letters so i'm not misunderstood.
1. Say it nicely. Pissing us off won't get your gripe resolved any faster, or at all.
2. If we say no, it means no, not maybe, not some other time, not okay, NO!
3. We only need to hear it once, if someone points it out in a thread, and we respond, we don't need three other threads, with fifty other people, and a poll, telling us the same things. We aren't retarded.
4. We are listening, many of the things pointed out to us have been, or are being resolved. However, some people feel that rather than intelligently pointing things out, and being constructive, they will tell us how horrible a job we did and why their opinion is more important than reality. The one thing that is more irritating than anything else is that when someone works their butt off to do something, people come in and arrogantly demand things of them.

 

[geogob]

To some extent, crac I agree with you. _but_ it's more complicated than you try to expose it. First of all, one has to understand (and i'm sure you do) that it is impossible to respond positively to every request that are made here. This could be for many different reasons all the way from technical to political.

You must also agree that a lot of stuff that has been asked wasn't asked properly. When you put long hours working on something that you are kind enough to release in a community there are a few things difficult to digest. People who come here and post like they know everything better than every one else is one of them. Many here seem they have a problem making the difference bettween a feeling, an opinion and a fact.

Then there are the repetitive request. You can continue to hammer on the nail when it's all the way in the 2x4... but sooner or later, the 2x4 will crack. Maybe we should do a roundup of all the request we've seen... let's see what comes in mind first...

1) Mag 7 sound. Some asked to check out the distant sound and the pump action sound. Guess what... we are looking at it (I guess we are not deaf after all).

2) M4A1 suppressor sound. This point was taken the first day the pack was released... again we are looking at what can be done.

3) M4A1 being an uberweapon. no comment on this one really. It's hardly a uberweapon. If you always get killed with it, that's because everyone uses it. If everyone uses it, it's because it's cool and new. Taking the problem the other way around can be missleading (e.g. I get killed a lot by it because it's an uberweapon and that's why everyone uses it). Logic has never been very strong around here. nothing new there.

4) M4A1 animations. First everyone whines that the weapon are switching too fast, now you whine that it's too slow. Making up your mind should be a good idea. I understand that the other weapons don't have this "feature". Well I guess there is a first to everything. We took note of the comment even during beta testing, but decided to keep it so. I though the community was ready for some innovative stuff... maybe not and for that I am personnaly disapointed. Sure it's an handicap... but somehow it doesn't make people any worse with the rifle.

5) recoil of the weapons. The reacoil isn't a problem with the weapon pack... it's a problem with Infiltration. We modeled the recoil so that a shot without interfearing with the mouse give about the recoil of a shot in real life. The problem with infiltration is that it's too easy to compensate recoil with the mouse. Sentry studios deicided to give unrealistically high recoils to counter the fact you can compensate this easily. IMO it's a cheap hack to solve a problem the wrong way around. By making the recoil realistic, we did not use SS's way to bypass the recoil correction problem, thus making it seem smaller to a player correcting for recoil. I don't know if i'm clear about this, but in brief, if you want realistic recoils there isn't much that can be done about it without modifing the game much more considerably.

6) M93R skin with wood. The m93r _is_ like that. If we wanted _another_ black gun, we whould have modelled something else. This is the m93r...

7) Priority bug. well how many time have I heared about this one! even myself found it anoying. Guess what... we found a quick fix for it. Not yet perfect? doesn't work for the uzi with 30rnds mag? well guess what again... we are working on it and we found a fix.

8) camo for the mp5a4. Some disliked it... well we made different camos, including a plain, every-other-inf-weapon-like-black skin following those comments, which were reasonable, especially considering the early developpement stage of the weapon. We will try to find a way to have a choice of camo. happy?

9) M4A1 with m203. Ah! I don't know how often I've seen this one... First let's start by noting that in Infiltration, the combat range is always bellow 500 m (I'm not even sure RtK is an exception to this). What's the difference in "performance" and "handling" between the m4a1 and m16a4 at those ranges? Now what happens if both the m16a4 and m4a1 have an m203? Or again, ask yourselves... if you have an m203 for the m16a4 AND the m16a2... do we really need an m203 for the m4a1?

To this last question my personnal opinion is no. If you cosider all the time it needs to create a whole new weapon class set for the m203 and the time it would take to animate it, it's even worse. Maybe not everyone has a good idea how hard it is to animate those rifles.... I had no idea before i got to it. And we decided to keep the number of attachements to a minimum of many technical reasons and to save time. None essential ones where not included.

So, that's all pretty clear uh? Then why continously ask for the m203? No we are not going to do it... but that doesn't imply that we don't care at all about your opinion. But when we have a good reason not to do something and you keep hammering down your request, at some point we are going to be tired of giving the same awnser. Soon or later, you'll get a big and nice "fuck off". I'm sure you'd do the same.

And then, finaly but not the least, there is the way things are asked around it. Reporting a problem doesn't mean you need to says that somethings sucks. Saying that you would like to see somethings more with a things doesn't mean you have to say that it's a useless piece of ****. If you say things that way, whether it's for something relative to this weapon pack or anything else, be assured that people are going to be much less receptive. I don't think I've seen one single complaint with a good technical description of the problem, testing result and real life facts as a comparison. I said facts here... that does't include opinion of feelings. If you feel that something is not correct, that doesn't make it incorrect. You cannot prove something on feelings or opinions. A good comparison fact could be, for example, a 3 round burst on target at 100 m in INF and in RL with the same weapon or a recorded sound. If you come with something like that and it's obvious it's totally off, of course we will consider fixing it. Sadly most of the input we recieved here is not only useless, but irritating in it's arrogance.

If things are asked nicely and are reasonable, nothing is said that we wouldn't look into it. I don't understand why you think we give no credit to the opinions delivered by the community. If we don't anwser your little requests, for your little person cracwhore, it doesn't mean that we don't care or that we don't listen.


EDIT: damn ecale... that font is huge! I think your post is even longer than mine

 

[cracwhore]

Damn Duke...

I'm gonna go get pumped, listen to Metallica and make my own M4A1!!! You showed me (and the community!)

And remember kids, the straight facts and general consensus will get you flamed.

You all just proved my point, and I didn't even have to be an ******* to do it.

But on a more interesting note: Which Nintendo cereal did you like more? The Mario half or the Zelda half?

 

[- Lich -]

Rant Rant Rant

And boy, do I ever want 13 different takes on the M4A1. I'm presently getting a team together to make a new M4A1 with irons and the M203. I hope everybody else does the same (instead of kindly asking the people who made this one to fix a few things). Maybe before the year is over, we can have 3 or 4 different versions of the M4A1!!!!

Hope this will not happen, simply cause the last thing I want to see is more version of ONE weapon, which perform different. This is very very far from as real as it gets.

If you expected to release this weapons pack and not get any criticism, I'm afraid you're working for the wrong community.

Thats right, but well three (or more) threads?!Why no one complainted about weapon mode switching on the famas?! And a lot of guys complain about really minor stuff. Or without thinking about it, for all the things programmed u need certain rules to get them in (example somewhere further down), which is not always possible.

The safety toggle for the M4 is something I dislike. The example has been made that when you empty the rifle, the safety switch is still being used, which causes a further delay in weapon switching. It's cool when you start a map, but not all the time (especially in panic situations). The "turn the rifle 40 degrees to switch ROF" animation needs to go as well. I don't know anybody that is trained with a rifle that turns their gun over like that. I was always under the impression that when you're trained with a firearm, you know where everything is. I don't know why you insist on keeping this feature, when clearly the majority of us "whiners" dislike it...but as you say, "make your own" or "don't use it". The switch for ROF doesn't even need to be animated. I understood you decided to do so as a "creative choice", and that's fine...but seriously, nobody turns their rifle over like that. If the finger animates, neat. But obstructing your view to look for a switch that your thumb is resting on is silly..especially since you're a trained expert with the weapon already.

Ok, let's see, if I get everything here: The savety is nice, reloading should be the right way to do, when u empty a magazine, not weapons switching. This (and the maybe a little weird looking animation with the microuzi) is a damn good way to solve this. I hope all weapons made by the INFMOD Team will get something alike. And then it will not be something weird.

The not using the savety in certain situations, like an empty magazine: What after it?! what when u switch back to the m4. U would need another animation (raising weapon without savety), and you would have to save somewhere, if the savety was used, or not.
Or you would see the soldier use the savety always, would result in whining about : why this guy switches my rifle to 'fire', while it should be allready. Easy to do in real life, but getting it into a simulation....not that easy.

The rate of fire swichting...looks not like an expert doing it, ok but..why does it matter?! I don't realize any disadvantage here, it is not really slower, and I do not have any problems with my field of view. I do not switch fire mode on the fly, by the way.

My point is: You're making these guns for everybody to enjoy (yourself included, yes, I know). You have to model things realistically. But you also have to keep in mind that the guns should behave somewhat like the SS weapons.

Making the weapons for everyone to enjoy... as yourself stated somewhere about, it is difficult to get anything going for this community without someone whining about this or that. Everyone to enjoy...no way to do it. And due to the fact they do all the work, they can do it like they want, and not like others want, is it major parts of the community or SS itself. If they did not want new weapons, they should not make it this easy to do them. I get the impression, they wanted new weapons, and I am sure they knew this could lead to someone making them in another way.