Dodge / boost / walltricks ?

[BaRrOw]

As much as I despise debates such as this one, I'd like to point out two things:

1) Presumably speaking, if we were to assume that conc nades still only blind you if you are looking directly at them, then conc-jumping with timed nades will still be a feasible way of getting around. And before anyone starts bitching and saying it's impossible, I've seen quite a few gunners that conc-jump well with timed nades instead of the 3rd-person trick.

2) I assume everyone bad mouthing wall-jumping either doesn't knwo how to do it, or cannot use it effectively in actual gameplay. The reason I say this is that wall jumping (the double-boost wall jumping that everyone is thinking of), drains 80% of your energy, and a good chunk of your endurance. On top of that, which leaves you in a weakened state when you land, you have to run up to a wall (can we say spalsh damage for the two classes who can't move as fast?), and a poorly aimed jump can easily lead to a fatal fall, seeing as you have no jumpjets left for the duration of the jump.

Don't bitch about imbalances, as 99% of you don't know "what's best for the game", and thus, instead of trying to modify the original, work on pointing out bugs and glitches that need attention when making utxmp.

[Edit: Takwu, I skipped over your last post... Glad to see someone else knows how conc-jumping was intended to work.]

 

[iddQd]

I couldn't agree more.

 

[takwu]

sparrow, I know how to time conc jump, but can never do it effectively lol

I do consider the wall dodge a bug. It was never mentioned as a standard feature of the game, it doesn't make much sense as a feature, and it makes some sense as a bug (you can easily guess the cause of that bug).

And it seems you are only considering the alcazar cloud entrance. That is one of the obvious places to use it, but it definitely isn't where it is most advantageous. There are enough trick jump videos around with a lot of good examples where a wall dodge can leave everyone behind (ok most people), and is safe to do.

In any case, I do not see any downside on getting rid of it.

 

[fireball]

Right. I'm just gonna let tak speak for me in this thread after reading those two posts.

 

[Naib]

I do consider the wall dodge a bug. It was never mentioned as a standard feature of the game, it doesn't make much sense as a feature, and it makes some sense as a bug (you can easily guess the cause of that bug).

The readme and the tutorial for this game miss out a lot of things, so you can't really use that as a way of deciding if it is a bug or not. For example there is no mention of boost jets for jumping.

And it seems you are only considering the alcazar cloud entrance. That is one of the obvious places to use it, but it definitely isn't where it is most advantageous. There are enough trick jump videos around with a lot of good examples where a wall dodge can leave everyone behind (ok most people), and is safe to do.

In any case, I do not see any downside on getting rid of it.

The downside is it would slow the game down, and also remove some of the depth from the game. For me working out new jumps to give me an advantage is one of the more fun part of xmp.

From an earlier post:

Like I said, the wall dodge simply multiplies the gap. Just imagine a ranger wall dodging at his maximum speed vs a tech or gunner doing the same. They have no chance to keep up.

At least "normally" the other classes can use their weapons to try to bring down the runaway thief.If anyone does not believe me, I suggest they experience it themselves as gunner or tech and ask a wall dodging ranger friend to demostrate.

I spend 90% of my time as a gunner, but I still think it's balanced. Rangers have very little shields, so they need that speed to keep the game balanced. It's part of the fun of defending when you know that if you don't kill them quickly they can leave you standing.

But saying that, most wall jumps can be done almost as well with a tech or even a gunner. I could even show you a wall jump that can only be done by a gunner

 

[takwu]

Hmm, I thought the tutorial talked about boost jet. I'll look around.
But anyway, when I said "never mentioned" I really meant any official (or close to) words on it. The instructions to do most things, even slope dodges, can be found everywhere, from ex Legend ppl, beta testers, etc.

But the wall dodge? I did not know about it until someone kind enough showed me on an empty server. I was told it was a "known bug" from an older UT and to be eliminated in UT2K4 (which wasn't out at the time). I got the impression that it was a bug passed on from some old code. And it was not any big problem until you combine it with XMP's jump jet AND dodge jet. But of course that doesn't *prove" it is a bug, just some evidence here and there. On the contrary, I have not seen any evidence that the wall dodge was designed into the game. Not a single word on it from anyone remotely official.

As for the downside, yes if everyone was wall dodging, or in other words, it was a common practice, it would become part of the game and everyone should live with it (gas, anyone?). But as far as I can tell, the wall dodge is a "niche" move that is used by those who know about it AND where it can be done, which you must remember by heart for each spot of each map. It becomes more of an exploit of the maps. More often than not, the original mapper does not take into account the distance a wall dodge would cover. In which case, if a wall dodge works on the map, it breaks the map's design to a certain extend.

You could argue that trip mine jumping or concussion jumping should be considered the same way. However because of the inherit "problems" of those moves, in particular the damage it causes the players, it is "balanced out". Furthermore, they are part of the design.

 

[chipmunk]

Excellent points so far. I especially agree with sparrow's and Naib's points.
[WALL DODGE SUGGESTIONS]

I'd keep the wall dodges and subsequent mechanics/physics the exact same as they are in XMP. After playing around with all the classes and experimenting on various maps, I've come to the conclusion that even the fastest rangers can be kept up with (with each class) if you use some smarts and have some map knowledge, and can predict where he is going to land. And with a gunner, perfecting the conc jump is invaluable if you are to be a chasing gunner.

With the splash damage a rocket does, and the gas clouds a tech can douse the node with, I'm really really glad that wall dodges were left in the game. A ranger's 100 health/shield is not very much at all. The insane moves they can pull off at times is the exact sort of advantage that the class needed to be an effective attacker.

If there's a specific wall jump that you simply can't defend against (Maybe the nakoja red node to the center deploy for example), then start thinking about the option of using a ranger on defense. A skilled ranger who's main purpose is to just "track that arti down". EDIT <-- this part is directed towards players who are having trouble defending against wall jumps, not FMI

[CONCUSSION JUMPING SUGGESTIONS]

As far as conc jumping goes though, its current state in u2xmp is too exploitable. If used properly (perhaps exploited with behindview?), the conc jump can turn a gunner into THE fastest class in the game. There is no ranger or tech that can keep up with a flying gunner.

If conc jumps are used on offense with an artifact, the ONLY thing that can keep up with that gunner is another conc-jumping gunner. (Or a perfectly placed sniper bullet in mid air). A defensive tech cannot keep up with a flying gunner, period. He can cut him off mid field with a deploy, but if that arti leaves the node, you might as well kiss it good bye, or at least try to hurt the gunner enough where a conc jump will kill him.

I don't think that Legend intended the gunner to be that fast. I know that Scott wanted to keep the conc jump in the game for places like the sirocco mountains... but I'm not entirely sure he knew that when combined with behindview, a sprint dodge, and a jump jet, a gunner could get across garden in 2 jumps. Know what I mean?

I'd do one of two things with conc jumping.

1. Make absolutely 110% sure that the conc blinds the person who shot it, in both first person and behind view. 110% sure!!

or...

2. Make it so that a conc nade does not blind the gunner who shot it, period. That way, every single gunner who plays the game can conc jump. There is no need for behindview, or accusations of "hacking and cheating" by people who were smart enough to bind togglebehindview to a key.

If you choose option 1, I'd keep the physics the same as in XMP with conc jumping (as far as distance/speed/health taken off are concerned). The temporary blinding is enough of a disadvantage by itself.

If you choose option 2, I'd drastically reduce the distance of the current conc jump in u2xmp, and possibly increase the damage dealt by one. If every gunner has the option to do a fully visible conc jump it could destroy the balance of the classes. In u2xmp, if every gunner perfected the art of conc running, then frankly, everyone would be playing gunner.

I kinda like choice 2 personally. It gives a gunner a much needed speed boost, but it's not a gamebreaker.

Anyways, to sum up everything: Keep wall jumping the exact same. Conc jumping has to be modified to be unexploitable. Thanks FMI!

 

[JaGo]

Excellent points so far. I especially agree with sparrow's and Naib's points....

Boy! Have we missed you!


Hiyaz Daft!!!!!!!

 

[chipmunk]

Jagooooooooooooooo!

Where the hell ya been all my life?

I miss ya fools too, I be back as soon as these guys get this utxmp stuff out the door.

 

[System]

Um err umm wtf? Get rid of wall jumps - ARE YOU CRAZY!!! For starters Tech can wall jump very effectively, secondly wall jumping is so much fun ffs, and it is most certainly balanced. The best wall jumps require them to be performed very quickly, ie the quicker you do them the further/higher you go, hence the skill factor comming into play.

I would have thought the majority of players know of wall jumping by now, and as a tech or gunner your job is clearly to stop them before they get to the wall. A gunner naturally has a good chance of stopping near by walljumpers, due to if he hits the ****ing wall (like how can he miss) with a rocket launcer, his going to deal the ranger a lot of damage, and slow him down rendering the wall jump useless, even better he can hit it with a cocn nade, which is going to deffinately give that ranger a bad time :\ As a tech, lets face it, that shotgun can shoot damn far, he easily should be able to land a few hits on a ranger with it, and again he should be wary of the flat surfaces for rangers to perform the jumps, putting a gas grenade on them when needed, or even better charring the ****ing ranger right as he goes for the jump.

Whats more, how the hell can you complain of walljumping with conc jumping out there, not only does it mean when fighting a gunner he can easily escape from anywhere, but also is likely to blind you in the proccess! Conc jumping and every form of wall jump should be featured in UTXMP, if its not, your taking away half a players skill: the abillity to move better than others.

 

[PF Prophet]

keep wall and all other forms of jumping they all have there uses and can all be defended against

the only thing i dont like is stupid mines(as aposted to smart mines) they pizz me off

 

[Fleury14]

Jagooooooooooooooo!

Where the hell ya been all my life?

I miss ya fools too, I be back as soon as these guys get this utxmp stuff out the door.

You could at least pop in the channel and say hi once in a while. I still have your pink headset waiting for you.

 

[[DF]phalanx]

i hate smart mines
i cant boost with then >.<

 

[Dandeloreon1984]

you can get a boost with them, but you haft to shoot them first... lol.

 

[[LNS]Jubei]

wall dodging is a part of xmp, live with it.

 

[fireball]

Nevar!

 

[takwu]

wall dodging is a part of xmp, live with it.

You either didn't read my post or didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

 

[[LNS]Jubei]

You either didn't read my post or didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

why do you think my post was aimed at you

 

[FurociousFa]

*cough*cough* A gunner takes about 4 conc jumps to get from base to base (just the outside platform) which is usually about 30-60% of his life depending on how well he concs, and you can't do dodge-concs for the entire landscape across garden unless you go down the valley rendering it useless exactly at the midfield upwards slope(s).

XMP is in-fact a team based game, don't you think someone/anyone would try to kill a weakened GUNNER in midfield going in open sky areas?

Many people know about conc jump/walljumps but are TOO lazy to use it, and be realistic its not often that a ranger that just ran through the node has full stamina/life if you have any sort of decent defense. Myself included, some times am just TOO lazy to use it. I've never heard anyone before this thread complain about how much walljump is ruining xmp, because it isn't.

and in response to whoever said everyone would play gunners, i think everyone would go ranger and just snipe them. It's not hard to snipe people going in a straight line if you know the approximate velocity/acceleration downwards in relation to your ping.

 

[takwu]

Jubei, I'm not saying you "aimed" at me, I'm saying you ignored what I said.
I basically explained comprehensively how walldodge is NOT part of XMP, and then you just jumped in and said it IS part of XMP with no explanation whatsoever.

Detective, if no one is using it, it's as good as non existent. In which case it'd not hurt to "fix" it in UTXMP, right? But if it's not fixed: you're on d, someone steals an arti, drops a smokie, and walldodges away, what do you have to do? walldodge after him. It isn't ruining XMP everyday, just occasionally. Same as most other bugs. Sunsetbeach cave bugs aren't ruining the map everyday, just occasionally. Should we leave it as it is?