CliffyB Talks Game Development

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Ignotium

Que hora es?
Apr 3, 2005
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@ Big dragon

you can't expect to come into my house, crap all over my furniture, so that i'd kick you out of it, and then expect me to apologize while you say that i suck and should make you happy for the sake of the earth.

People must understand that even though you are maybe saying the truth, throwing it in the face over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over again, without (stressed) knowing ALL the facts behind it, isn't going to get well accepted.

You know what, **** you all.

No game is perfect, and UT3 is far from perfect, but hey, so what?
 

Aegeri

Mad Microbiologist, of ASSHATTERY
Mar 15, 2004
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New Zealand
I would like to bet Cliffy, that UT3s failure has nothing to do with a sick PC gaming market at all and everything to do with the fact Epic made a dumbed down, consolised piece of garbage and completely missed the boat on what makes a good PC FPS game.
 

Hunter

BeyondUnreal Newsie
Aug 20, 2001
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...Behind You...
www.unrealfans.com
The problem for me is I'm tired of forking out £300 on a 360 and then another couple of hundred over the year on games exclusive to it only to get them on PC a year later (Gears of War, Bioshock and now Mass Effect) it's not a bad thing but if you do it, you do it at the same time or annouce it when its released.

I'm fed up of forking out £40 a game to then be able to buy it at £25-£30 a few months later for my PC which will make it look even better.
 

jimb0

New Member
Jul 11, 2005
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I guess that explains why UT3 had suck a brilliant interface: they don't care.

I would like to bet Cliffy, that UT3s failure has nothing to do with a sick PC gaming market at all and everything to do with the fact Epic made a dumbed down, consolised piece of garbage and completely missed the boat on what makes a good PC FPS game.

Exactly. It's always piracy or the gamer's fault. THAT's what's bad about the PC market: people always blame something else and forget that the players are usually more informed and tend to dislike half-finished games with a passion.

CoD4 is a brilliantly executed game (even if I don't like the gameplay myself), and guess what, it was developed for all three platforms (PC, PS3, XBox360). And using a proprietary engine (based off Q3A engine long time ago).

Why a developer like Epic with the super-duper Unreal 3 engine can't do the same quality-wise is beyond me.
 
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BigDragon

New Member
Jan 20, 2008
82
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I would like to bet Cliffy, that UT3s failure has nothing to do with a sick PC gaming market at all and everything to do with the fact Epic made a dumbed down, consolised piece of garbage and completely missed the boat on what makes a good PC FPS game.
Bingo, this is exactly on target. Cliffy doesn't want to take the time to understand the differences between console and PC gamers. There is a difference in terms of what people expect. "One size fits all" products do not always work across multiple platforms. This would imply that Cliffy has lost touch with gamers, which goes against the image he tries to project. He's no different from a professor who can't admit a mistake because it might make him look bad or knock him down a few steps. It's much easier (and more irresponsible) to blame something else for your troubles. Cliffy essentially blames the PC and its gamers instead of the software his company released (this applies to both UT3 and Gears on PC). This is the same thing as saying "my car crashed into a tree" as opposed to "I crashed my car into a tree"

WHAT?

UT3 is far from in a "beta state" but that doesn't mean it doesn't have issues. Would you consider Windows in a constant "beta state" or even every other software program you use? If there weren't issues, you'd have no reason to ever upgrade them, right? :p
There's a huge difference between Windows and UT3. Take Vista for example. During the alpha and beta stages it was called Longhorn. Then when it was getting ready for release the name changed to Vista and there were a couple of private release candidates before the final public offering. What happened with UT3 is that they just deleted the word beta off whatever was released instead of following the process to finish the design process. They kicked the game out of development to go after holiday sales instead of finishing the product.

The problem for me is I'm tired of forking out £300 on a 360 and then another couple of hundred over the year on games exclusive to it only to get them on PC a year later (Gears of War, Bioshock and now Mass Effect) it's not a bad thing but if you do it, you do it at the same time or annouce it when its released.

I'm fed up of forking out £40 a game to then be able to buy it at £25-£30 a few months later for my PC which will make it look even better.
This is a huge problem that nobody else seems to recognize. Not Cliffy, not Mark, nobody. Gaming is expensive! It doesn't matter what platform you're on because they're all expensive. XBox, PS3, and PC aren't exactly cheap when you factor in all the other things like income/property taxes, gas prices, vehicle registration and inspection, food costs, gas prices again, and so on. When you compound all these expenses with the deteriorating quality and length of games in general, it's very upsetting. Companies like Epic make the decision to release games before they're done--not the consumer. It's not acceptable in other industries and it shouldn't be acceptable here when prices continue to rise. Don't give me that BS about rising production costs--we all know there are more gamers than ever before and sales hitting new records all the time. Welcome to the entertainment industry. The bigger the risk, the bigger the reward. Wake up Cliffy/Epic. Things are changing!

OT: What you get kicked for BigDragon? You had some pretty good opinions over at the epic forums, what exactly was it that made them ban you?
Jeff Morris/Wartourist/Epic paid staff doesn't want to recognize outstanding issues with UT3 and gets upset when competitors products (TF2) are mentioned. Problems are easier to delete and whisk away than man up to and address. I'm sure he expected me to disappear by now. :lol:
 

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
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That's a pretty stupid theory.

UT3 likely had a "release date" in September sometime. They couldn't just push it off because the beta demo had a ton of feedback. In fact, most of the major feedback from the demo was fixed in the first patch, and most of the major feedback from the retail release will be fixed in the second patch. I think that is doing pretty good.
 

Spank$hot_BT

New Member
Feb 11, 2008
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Here’s what he had to say: “I think people would rather make a game that sells 4.5 million copies than a million and “Gears” is at 4.5 million right now on the 360. I think the PC is just in disarray… what’s driving the PC right now is ‘Sims’-type games and ‘WoW‘ and a lot of stuff that’s in a web-based interface. You just click on it and play it. That’s the direction PC is evolving into So for me, the PC is kind of the secondary part of what we’re doing. It’s important for us, but right now making AAA games on consoles is where we’re at.”

GOW is the second highest selling xbox360 game ever, released at a time when there was a dearth of quality 360 titles. Judging by this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games you pretty rapidly decend to the 1 million units sold territory on 360 - the supposedly typical PC sales figures (cough) - after halo and GOW. So it's just a little presumptive of Cliffy to state he'll be churning out more xbox360 4.5 million selling games as the market get more and more saturated with 'quality' console titles.
 

Grobut

Комиссар Гробут
Oct 27, 2004
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Soviet Denmark
UT3 likely had a "release date" in September sometime. They couldn't just push it off because the beta demo had a ton of feedback. In fact, most of the major feedback from the demo was fixed in the first patch, and most of the major feedback from the retail release will be fixed in the second patch. I think that is doing pretty good.

That doesen't really seem logical, it seems to defy the very point of releasing a Beta demo in the first place.

The logical thing would be the following:

1 Release Beta demo.

2 Collect feedback and tweak away the things people did not like, so you can have a solid release version (especially important since a console version was involved, and you'd want to do as little patching on that as possible).

3 Release a possible Beta-2 demo if needed, followed by tweaks if needed.

4 Release finished game and final demo.


That makes perfect sense, that is what i was expecting! but instead, we got a Beta demo, and very soon after the game hit shelves in time for X-mas in a not very finished state.. that makes no sense, why would anyone really want to do it that way!? and with the PS3 version aswell? seems to me that something went wrong somewhere.
 

MonsOlympus

Active Member
May 27, 2004
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GOW is the second highest selling xbox360 game ever, released at a time when there was a dearth of quality 360 titles. Judging by this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games you pretty rapidly decend to the 1 million units sold territory on 360 - the supposedly typical PC sales figures (cough) - after halo and GOW. So it's just a little presumptive of Cliffy to state he'll be churning out more xbox360 4.5 million selling games as the market get more and more saturated with 'quality' console titles.

:lol: I aboslutely love that page to death, you know why? Pacman sold only 1 million copies less than Halo3 :D beat that bliffy, we dont need no stinkin AAA. Then again I do appreciate what newer tech can do for artistic vision so its all good, as a developer that should be first and foremost but hey pacman's got class :p

I think this page though, despite what everyone thinks, shows the deminishing sales of console games since perhaps the nes/snes period (wow wii sports is going strong). When you look at the portable market you can see the numbers shoot through the roof so while console might be taking PC market share, Im certain portables are taking console market share.

All I see is this big growth market there, then again even the 17mil copies of nintendogs doesnt match 33mil for tetris and thats for tetris on that platform alone. The playstation though was out done by the playstation 2 but it seems 360 is still trying to get a foothold on even the xbox game sales.

Anyways, top 20 console games of all time (calling MS where are you) meh! who cares, if these stats are correct the original halflife sold as well as Halo 2/3 and better than Halo 1.
 
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Super-Moose

Member
Dec 3, 2005
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UK
Ah well, it was nice while it lasted. They don't seem to remember how to make a PC game, anyway. :(
Nothing's going to make me switch to a 360, though. I'll start paying to play online (with twats), download demos and to beta test lazy developers games for them, only when hell has frozen over, and I don't see that happening any time soon. And then there's the whole buying a piece of hardware with an "I have broken" light on the front... Yeeeeah, no thanks.
So I guess this is goodbye then , Epic. *sadface*

Since you raised the point regarding low PC sales numbers, i have to ask why you built the game from the top down. ie: runs properly only on very high end PCs. Why didn't you try to take advantage of the far greater proportion of PC users and build the game around their systems and make it upwardly scalable from their.
Errr, what? I haven't played a better optimised game in a long time. Most games don't even start up on my comp, but ut3 runs great on medium settings. That's just bull****.

The 360 version should have definitely come first ... it would have done much better even with no keyboard and mouse or mod support ... Xbox 360 gamers will play any good cool shooter ... we don't need keyboards.
Or not so cool, mediocre, complete ****e, Halo even...

UT3 likely had a "release date" in September sometime. They couldn't just push it off because the beta demo had a ton of feedback.
Didn't they say they were moving to Midway because they'd have more freedom to make the games they want, and release them when they want? That worked out well...
 

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
26,020
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It depends. Epic never said the beta demo was being released to perfect the game before it went to retail, they said it was to make sure it ran well on a variety of different machines of varying age.

Have you been around for any previous UT game release? EVERY demo (from UT onward) was released with issues that were not patched previous to retail and were fixed in the first few patches. It happened with UT2003, it happened with UT2004, it is happening with UT3.

In regards to switching to Midway, they HAVE had an exceptional amount of freedom. UT2007 was announced in early 2005 and was reportedly begun sometime in 2004. This generation, three years is a long time. Even considering UT2003 (which came out three years after UT, but probably had only been in development for two) was only developed on by Epic for about 8 months.
 
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Super-Moose

Member
Dec 3, 2005
91
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UK
In regards to switching to Midway, they HAVE had an exceptional amount of freedom. UT2007 was announced in early 2005 and was reportedly begun sometime in 2004. This generation, three years is a long time. Even considering UT2003 (which came out three years after UT, but probably had only been in development for two) was only developed on by Epic for about 8 months.
Still wasn't long enough though, was it? :(
 

Sir_Brizz

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Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
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I'm saying they were given a pretty exorbitant amount of time to finish the game, so the switch to Midway was justified in that sense.
 

TheIronKnuckle

What the hell is this "ballin" thing?
Have you been around for any previous UT game release? EVERY demo (from UT onward) was released with issues that were not patched previous to retail and were fixed in the first few patches. It happened with UT2003, it happened with UT2004, it is happening with UT3.

This is actually a very good point. All games get patches, there are always bugs that need to be ironed out. UT3 is no different. Now don't get me wrong, I agree that there are TOO MANY bugs in this particular instance, and the UI is consolized and just a plain bad decision. But bugs can be squashed, and with the patches coming out many WILL be squashed. All of these type of ranting threads about issues with UT3 are just going to pressure epic to release the patch faster, which may or may not be a good thing. On the upside it means we get fixed up faster. But on the other hand it means an unfinished patch that causes more rant threads about how "after 2 bloody patches this game still sucks".

Either way, once EPIC patch the game up to quality standards, who is going to care about the state it was in on release? Once the patches are rolling, we'll see how many complaints there are.
 

Continuum

Lobotomistician
Jul 24, 2005
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Comparing the worst software ever written to a game.

There's a huge difference between Windows and UT3. Take Vista for example. During the alpha and beta stages it was called Longhorn. Then when it was getting ready for release the name changed to Vista and there were a couple of private release candidates before the final public offering. What happened with UT3 is that they just deleted the word beta off whatever was released instead of following the process to finish the design process. They kicked the game out of development to go after holiday sales instead of finishing the product.


Do some research before posting bs. Vista is far less complete that UT3 is and I'm sure if you read much on vista you'll find next to no positive comments about it. Hell even the installer is broke on vista. As for name changes UT3 has had a few but that is completely irrelevant to anything except its name.
 

Lostsoul

boobs
Jul 3, 2005
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pdX, Oregun
Do some research before posting bs. Vista is far less complete that UT3 is and I'm sure if you read much on vista you'll find next to no positive comments about it. Hell even the installer is broke on vista. As for name changes UT3 has had a few but that is completely irrelevant to anything except its name.

I don't use Vista, but everyone always gives new OS's a hard time. New OS's have a lot of things to try and be compatible with.
 

Mad Max RW

Road Warrior
Nov 13, 2003
253
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www.duckandcover.net
Ha, called it again. Epic dumping on the PC fans that made them? Who would have thought? Haha lame. Thank god I didn't fall for that piece of crap UT3 whatever. The Unreal community is DEAD.