Yurch's antics reach a new level!

[yurch]

damages (multiplied by 1.5)
m9 = 25
mp5 = 25
.357 = 35
5.7 = 28
p90(unsil) = 33

Hmm, you are right, it is a bit wierd.
Its not certain whether or not more penetration or a bigger hole is a better factor in takedown power - which is certainly a valid argument for the m9 vs 5-7 round. I other words, I have no idea which should hurt more.
Of course, with the case of the mp5 (.40SW rounds, basically a 9mm with more power behind it), it should hurt more than a regular m9.

The 5-7 shoots the same round as the p90, so the 5-7 vs the p90 is slightly out of whack.
as for the .357, I have no idea where it should fall.

Forgive me if I make any incorrect assumptions.

 

[jlamb_vo]

Wait wait, you did do something to make the grenades more bouncy?

Is THAT why on Dasboot the other day I dropped a frag down some stairs, only to stare dumbly in amazement as it slowly rose back into my face and exploded?

 

[yurch]

Aiie!
Ahh, yeah. My initial change wasn't so good, working on another one.

 

[{GD}Ghost]

Originally posted by jlamb_vo
Wait wait, you did do something to make the grenades more bouncy?

Is THAT why on Dasboot the other day I dropped a frag down some stairs, only to stare dumbly in amazement as it slowly rose back into my face and exploded?

<==me ROFLMAO!!

 

[MadWoffen]

Originally posted by yurch

The 5-7 shoots the same round as the p90, so the 5-7 vs the p90 is slightly out of whack.

Forgive me if I make any incorrect assumptions.

There are 4 kinds of ammo for the P90.

The 5.7 x 28 mm ammunition family

The SS190 Standard Ball Round
The L191 Tracer Round : visible trace from 20 m to over 200 m. Trajectory matches Ball Round.
The Sb 193 Subsonic Round : for use with sound suppressor.
The T194 Training Round : reduces backstop damage.


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Weight and size

The SS190 ammunition weighs only half as much as 9 mm and its size allows the P90® submachine gun to carry a 50-round magazine which is only slightly longer than a 9 mm 30-round magazine.

The SS190 is so far superior to commonplace 9 mm rounds, that the 9 mm is essentially obsolete for military operations.

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Low recoil

The recoil impulse of the SS190 is only 1/3 of the 5.56 mm ball round and 2/3 of the 9 mm ball round.

It is easier to fire rapid aimed shots, as the sight remains on target. In the full auto mode, the low recoil significantly increases the controllability and the accuracy of the weapon.


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High probablility of incapacitation

The SS190 ammunition will incapacitate the enemy in close range combat.

The SS190 provides a virtually flat trajectory up to 200 meters, does not deform or fragment on impact, and the projectile’s tumbling action ensures a very high probability of incapacitation.



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Safety

The SS190 ammunition transfers nearly all of its energy to the target on impact, thus minimizing over-penetration and greatly reducing collateral risks to friendly / non-combattants.

In contrast, a 9 mm round loses only 30% of its energy on the primary target and often causes unintended damage, well beyond the area of engagement.

Seems the 5-7 can do is load of damage.

www.fnherstal.com

 

[yurch]

The SS190 Standard Ball Round
The L191 Tracer Round : visible trace from 20 m to over 200 m. Trajectory matches Ball Round.
The Sb 193 Subsonic Round : for use with sound suppressor.
The T194 Training Round : reduces backstop damage.

That just proves my point, woffy
We aren't using training rounds(this is combat), we aren't using subsonic rounds in the 5.7 (which would penetrate less anyway).
Tracer rounds are the visible kind. If I assume that the 5-7 uses a mixture of both the ball and the tracer (like the p90 does), then it should do the same damage as the p90.

 

[St0rmcaller]

Whats the difference in chamber pressure, muzzle velocity, and all that jazzy shiznit? This stuff would change the effective damage rating.

 

[MadWoffen]

I was posting it for information purpose but also because everyone thinks the 5-7 do almost no damage. The tumblig of the bullet seems to do a lot of damage (incapacitation).
Here are the only specs I found. Don't have much time for further. Maybe if I find something new later, I'll post it.

Technical data :

Five-seveN® Five-seveN® Tactical
• Operating principle Delayed blowback
• Trigger mechanism double action only single action
• Trigger pull 4.5 -6.5 daN (10 -14 lbs) 2 -3 daN (4.5 -6.6 lbs)
• Weight loaded 744 g (1.64 lb) 756 g (1.67 lb)
• Magazine capacity 20 rounds
• Overall length 208 mm (8.2 in)
• Barrel length 122.5 mm (4.8 in)
• Frame, slide cover , magazine Black polymer
• Maximum effective range 50 m


Technical data :
P90
• Operating principle Blowback firing from closed breech
• Overall length 500 mm (19.7 in)
• Weight of loaded weapon 3 kg (6.6 lbs)
• Magazine capacity 50 rounds
• Firing modes Single shot, full automatic
• Cyclic rate of fire 900 rpm
• Max. effective range 200 m (219 yds)



Edit:

just for info. I spoke about the P90 with my friend who is officer at the para-commandos in Belgium this week. He likes the weapon but on mission, nothing is better for him than an old FN FAL. And nowaday, his troops are using FNC and P90. What he deslike in the P90, is the fact this kind of weapon won't support same sort of "outrage" (mud and the like) than a FAL.

 

[shadowkil]

what about bullet weight and diameter?

 

[MadWoffen]

Technical data :

SS190 L191 Sb 193 T194
• Function Ball Trace Subsonic Training
• Bullet type FMJ Tracer FMJ JHP
• Color code - Red White Green
• Length 40.5 mm (1.6 in)
• Weight of round 6.4 g (98 gr.) 6.4 g (98 gr.) 7.6 g (117 gr.) 6.15 g (95 gr.)
• Weight of projectile 2 g (31 gr.) 2 g (31 gr.) 3.6 g (55 gr.) 1.8 g (28 gr.)
• Muzzle velocity
P90®
715 m/s (2,346 fps) 320 m/s 705 m/s
Five-seveN®
650 m/s (2,133 fps) 305 m/s 640 m/s



Check the site for a better readble board.

 

[bastardb]

hmm so how much longer does the bullet travel in the p90 then in the 57?

 

[shadowkil]

Originally posted by MadWoffen
I was posting it for information purpose but also because everyone thinks the 5-7 do almost no damage. The tumblig of the bullet seems to do a lot of damage (incapacitation).

What tumbling? The tumbling that occurred in early M16's was largely due to loose rifling causing under-stabalization. I don't see how the bullet could effictively pierce armour if it is under-stabalized. I'm sure the 5.7mm bullet will do plenty if you put it in the right place, but I'm not sure I see how it would cause as much tissue destruction as a larger bullet.

 

[RAZZ]

A bullet can be balanced to fly and strike strait, but twist the second it hits flesh.

its kinda like a football.
it hits your hands hard and strait. but if you miss (butterfingers ) it corkescrews all over till it stops.

thats what a small bullet is doing inside your guts.
it wont kill you now, but you're just as sure to die without treatment. (if the wound is even treatable)
unless your some drugged up psycho, your pretty much outta the fight.

a while back there was some experimentation with fuchetts(SP?)
tiny needel like rounds that would penetrate most anything and cut you to pieces.
I dunno if anything came of that, but Im pretty sure their probly banned by now.

 

[shadowkil]

I understand that. If it is understabalized and tumbles the moment it contacts something solid though, how is it going to penetrate armour?

 

[RAZZ]

its flying at speeds close to mach 3 with little resistance comming from the air. flying dead strait cause of the guns rifeling and its own momentum.
in that instant it contacts a kevlar vest theres no time for it to twist and lots of pressure forcing it strait forward.

once it enters a body, our jelly like flesh acts as a flight meduim, allowing time to slow down.

 

[shadowkil]

Ok, that's a plausible theory. Anybody have any pics of how 5.7 acts in ballistic gelatin behind kevlar for a proof? I don't mean to sound all argumentative or imply that you don't know what you're talking about, I'm just of the "big and slow" group as opposed to the "velocity is king" group Although really I don't think caliber is as big a deal as a lot of folks make it to be - shot placement is what really matters IMHO, and as for caliber you need to it to be moving fast enough to penetrate to the vitals and be heavy enough to not be too easily deflected by wind and "soft cover". Again, it's certainly a sound theory, and I'm curious as to that's actually how the bullet behaves.

 

[RAZZ]

5.7

m-16 round
which will blow through most any level II vest out there.

 

[jlamb_vo]

RAZZ, I've also been wondering about 'flechette' rounds, I remember reading about some prototypes for Advanced Combat System project or whatever (before settling for improvements on the M16?) that seemed to use either caseless or flechette rounds.

I'd like to know more about flechette ammunition if anyone could enlighten me. From what I understand, it is essentially a steel dart contained in a cartridge which is shed after leaving the barrel. I also remember hearing about flechette packed shells for tanks (and even 40mm?) in vietnam.

Are these more suited to a particular role? I often see references to these being used as strictly lethal antipersonel, but a more remarkable application was in that Steyr anti material rifle that fired a 15mm flechette (!!) that would penetrate something like 40mm of armored steel at 800m

Then theres the Shadowrun RPG that gave flechettes a huge damage boost but reduced penetration... but I suppose we can't take that as gospel

 

[RAZZ]

I've heard of 3 kinda of flechetts.

one was a steel spike for a pre m-16 rifle called spew(?) spewm(?), bah something like that

I also heard(rumor) about a handgun flechett round. a wrap of a dozen tiny needels that could penetrate body armor.
supposedly making incureable wounds.

Theres also supposed to be a tank round thats made of larger flechette packs.
I've never seen one or heard much about that either.

 

[shadowkil]

ss190 in gelatin

Thanks for the pics Razz. I must say I'm rather impressed. I'm by no means an instant convert or anything - I'd still rather have a .40 or .45 in most situations, but that doesn't look too bad.