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You want hardcore realism, or not so?

Discussion in 'General Infiltration Discussion' started by St0rmcaller, Jul 9, 2001.

?

How much realism do you want?

  1. Infantry simulator. 'Nuff said.

    86 vote(s)
    78.9%
  2. More balance than realism.

    20 vote(s)
    18.3%
  3. Running and gunning is real, isn't it?

    3 vote(s)
    2.8%
  1. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    I hope I misinterpreted the last one... no one here is a NON-team-player in general... and the one ya spoke about isn't either... but some want scores some not ... so... now back to friendly talk again plz... [​IMG]

    - Beppo
     
  2. Warren

    Warren Infiltration Project Coordinator

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    Was asked to make a few comments.

    Okay, first off, we're adding a jogging system to Inf. Initial testing of the new animations began today. Walking and jogging will be the primary mode of transportation. Running will still be available, and will still stay the same speed. However, there is now inertia when you change directions, so no more doing an instant reversal. A small amount of stopping inertia occurs when you go from a run to a complete stop. Accuracy while running is going to be extremely difficult, borderline utterly useless. It remains in the game because it IS possible, but running is best served to let you get to another location quickly. We still have plenty of tweaking to do such as stamina drain and whatnot.

    Second, friendly fire. Most know it IS an option that can be disabled already. However, maybe we should disable it by default and those who like to play with it can turn it back on if they wish. I can live with that.

    Third, scoring. Oh how I wish we could please everyone. Well Inf is already option-city, which complicates the programming to the Nth degree. However, we are working on a new scoring system that may or may not be ready by 2.86. I won't give it all away, but it will remove individual scoring during the match and will include a handful of general statistics which will further calculate into the score. It's extremely team-oriented... on paper. Until we get a chance to run it through it's paces, we won't elaborate on how the scoring occurs, but if testing is positive for a release, I'll include plenty of details in the manual.

    One thing I do want to mention though is bot AI. Although players have inertia calculated into direction change and stopping, bots do not and from what I can gather, cannot, because the commands for specific direction and movement come from the engine- I'm sure Beppo will correct me if I'm wrong, but generally we receive the commands after the fact. So our only true alternative is to change the way they think. And this is being developed now. But a quality system will take a bit of time and won't make any appearances until after 2.86. So although bots are smarter, they aren't anywhere near the level they will be.

    And finally- for crying out loud- let's all keep some perspective. The quickest way to get the worst kind of attention and lose respect for future opinions is to bad mouth someone else, regardless. Don't sweat the small stuff. And guess what- everything, even Inf, is the small stuff.
     
  3. RogueLeader

    RogueLeader Tama-chan says, "aurf aurf aurf!"

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    The almighty Warren speaks!

    /me bows before His brilliant greatness.
     
  4. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    Thx Warren for joining!

    and ... not a real correction but:

    the commands given to bots for moving to specific locations, turning into specific directions etc are inside the engine and not accessable thru scripts. These commands/functions change the velocity and acceleration of the bot directly. The only way to add an inertia system or something similiar would be to alter the bots velocity and acceleration every tick ( = each 0.2 - 0.4 secs ) if needed and this will simply ruin performance and can result in choppy movement too. I haven't tested it yet but the effort isn't worth it really. Bots run around and they can change directions very fast, but this will change automatically when our AI improvements will be implemented. So there is no need for giving bot inertia or similar things at the moment.

    - Beppo
     
  5. RogueLeader

    RogueLeader Tama-chan says, "aurf aurf aurf!"

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    Right now the bots' ability to make split second changes in direction is compensated for by their crippling stupidity.
     
  6. {DA}TNT_$sp00ky

    {DA}TNT_$sp00ky A SPOOK WITH A GUN

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    piont taken :p has anyone thought of maybe a round winning kill bonus ? i recon a bonus score for the final kill will encourage caution and might help teaming plus at the end with 1 player left you will hunt him down not sit and wait wanting the kill just a thought
    :D
     
  7. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    How did you implement this inaccurate fire while moving...
    Through a accurate model that tracks where the gun is pointing as it bounces around...
    Or just a random bullet inaccuracy?

    I don't like having my gun point one way and having it hit another. Aiming from the hip almost comes to mind...
     
  8. Elite_Soldier

    Elite_Soldier -Malice-

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    Thanks Warren and Beppo. Cleared alot of things up with those posts.
     
  9. [L]the_Countess

    [L]the_Countess Novice

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    thx you for giving us some more insights into your caracter
    befor you get all exited the_fur about the teambased scoring systme lest just first w8 untill we know what the stats are all about. ummk?

    i agrea totaly with what Elite_Soldier has sayed

    i'd like to add something thou

    the no individual scoreing system or team-only is often referd to as the communitic or social system

    are you all aware of why comminuism didnt work?

    the mean reason is loss of identatie and indivualism
    you are nothing for the state
    you cant get higher up
    you cant fall lower
    you allways get payed where you work for it or not
    ppl turned pretty lazzy
    why work? it dusnt mater. i wont get any beter by doing it.
    after a couple of years of communism poductivity per person was down A LOT from befor (when effecics of industryalysation are taken away ofcourse)
    you work for the state not yourself
    the state is a abstrack something
    its not something you well know or love
    its a couple of guys far away you have never even seen

    why is it working in china?
    eazy
    give back individualism
    in china
    you can get payed more
    you can get higher up
    you can turn a personal profit

    with the loss if a personal score you become nothing to the team
    just anothing one of the drone's
    you, as a person, cant get higher up.
    now you do have more impackt then the average communist worker but still verry little on the whole

    now, hoping im not making to great a mindleap here,
    the consept "team" is verry simular to the communist goverment also.
    the problems being the same again

    the "team" is a couple of guys, far away behind a computer, that you dont really know
    you centenly dont love or would do anything extream for them

    why dus it work for soldiers IRL then?
    a soldier knows his teamm8's
    knows them well
    they are proud of their team and love them and are willing to go throu fire for them

    unless your talking about a clanm8 (e.g. brother in arms) you often dont know most of your team and so feel no affilation with them

    with the social scorying system your only reason to play(work) is for the abstrect concept of "team" with teamm8's you dont know or even like

    because the teams in inf are small, teamwork could (and dus) evolve but it usualy dusnt last more then a couple of rounds
    not on the level it takes to say turn the match around

    the only really realist playing can only be seen in clanwars where the feeling of toghterterness is verry strong.

    the INF team seem to have opted more for the chinez sens of communism in the form of the stats
    i can only hope it works in INF
     
  10. The_Fur

    The_Fur Back in black

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    countess we allready know you want INF to be quake, all you care about is your own score so please shut up in any topic concerning teamwork.
     
  11. St0rmcaller

    St0rmcaller [AFA]'s unoffical godfather

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    *sigh*

    I'm beginning to think that "no scoring" whatsoever is the best option.

    Countess, in most of the ideas for a team scoring effect, you can see that although no one really has an individual score, their score, and thus everyone else's, can be bettered through individual achievement. No one would get lazy because they have better chance of improving the score through aiding the team.
     
  12. poaw

    poaw You used to sleep easy at night.

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    Well I can't say comparing scoring in an online game to a economic system really works but I'll respond anyway.

    People playing that get no individual scores wouldn't get lazy because if they did, the game will still punish them by sticking them in ghost cam mode after they die. People aren't just going to sit in their spawn picking their noses because they actually do enjoy doing whatever they do.
     
  13. Snakeyes

    Snakeyes New Member

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    You have to ask yourself: What do I enjoy more, the score or the playing? Personally, I like playing. My score could be zero or a thousand and it wouldn't make the game-play more or less enjoyable or change my desire to do well.
     
  14. Nemisis-J

    Nemisis-J Cunning Linguist

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    Military RanKinG?

    Its probably been suggested B4 apolagise if so.
    But has the consept of giving players a score via Military Rank system ie private, leftenent, captain extra.. (don't know the correct oder I shore a lot of U do though ;) ) with the steps to the next rank being all the more ie 3 points first rank 6 sencond 12 third .......

    with points being awarded for kills and your team winning one could also include medals of honour or something....

    and emidiate demotion for team kills
     
  15. [L]the_Countess

    [L]the_Countess Novice

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    @the_fur the fackt alone that you think teamwork dusnt need communications says enough for me. follow your own advise
    try 1 clanmatch and you will see communication is VITAL!



    @everybody else: im not saying ppl will become lazzy and not enjoy it anymore
    that would mean they just wouldnt play (ummm, well DUH!)

    the main point in my statment is more that ppl wont really feel connected to the team
    i dont think the scorying system can create a real team feeling
    just doing basic teamwork taticks is not enough (the fur thinks it is)
    to really work as a team you need more bonding
    a mutual feeling
    be willing to take risks for the other
    a willingness to calculate your teamm8 into EVERY move you make

    posted by poaw
    "Well I can't say comparing scoring in an online game to a economic system really works but I'll respond anyway. "

    its not the econimic's im comparing it to
    its the interaction between ppl
    the way of life and the political system
    the economics i dont care about @ all (im not a american ;))
    besides i didnt start
    i didnt call it the "communist scorying system"

    @nemasis
    that would just be the only system presented in a new way
    nothing would really change then
     
  16. monkey_hanger

    monkey_hanger monkey spanker

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    You two seem to be arguing for the sake of it now is. I wish you two could settle your differences, especially both coming from the same country, so u should have some sort of affinity.:)

    Just settle on this:

    Countess like his personal scores
    Fur wants a fully team orientated game

    Both are entitled to opinions without requiring the fire brigade.

    Anyway back to the point.
    teamwork requires communications for only two main things IMHO.

    Ghost recon (it happens)
    Reporting of sightings and positions.

    Anything else depends on the familiarity of the ppl you are teaming up with. If you know your team mates really well then ive found that you need to say nothing apart from the 2 above. But if you aint too familiar then you need to talk more. I prefer to keep talk to a minimum as it affects concentration to a degree that it is debatable whether it is worth using it at all!

    But it all falls down to what the ppl are like you are playing with. Ive come to the conclsusion that RW channels for public servers will never work. For that reason.

    Sorry for going OT. My thoughts on scoring:

    Scrap all personal scores. Teamwork is what this game should be about (in terms of your team winning). Ive also been thinking lately that this game is really struggling for players. Newbies are only gunna be put off by the fact that a lot of ppl generate really high scores. If i was coming into INF now and was doing pretty poorly then id be on the 1st train back to instagib land, given the state of the servers at the moment. But i love INF so i'll never leave. :rollseyes:

    I was online today (cant remember exactly) and i was the only person in europe on a server. Thats a worrying fact considering its a continent of 400M ppl :(
     
  17. poaw

    poaw You used to sleep easy at night.

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    Only 400 million?

    At any rate, every mod has a "dead" version so to speak, where because of bugs, gameplay imbalances, or lack of updates people stopped playing as much as they used to. It's really nothing to worry about. Now if the site starts to go unupdated, the team stops posting on the forums and people lose interest in the infiltration community itself then it's a problem.
     
  18. monkey_hanger

    monkey_hanger monkey spanker

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    but why is it dead? i admit im a newby in the world of online gaming. But 2.85.5 is not any worse really than previous versions really, i just think its the atmosphere on the servers at the moment. There is so much bad feeling at times its unreal. You cant do anything for fear of incurring the wrath of the ghosts.
     
  19. [L]the_Countess

    [L]the_Countess Novice

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    ghost recon dustn happon on the publics
    its been a LONG time sins i saw it happen

    reporting sighings and positions : yup

    familiarity : is problem
    i know some players i know some well
    most i dont know

    so i need more communcation
    with the addistions of the compass quickly saying where more ppl are needed or where less or whatever will become MUCH quicker
    you use to have relay on the mappers to name every area
    and because or engine restrictions thats just not posible

    the compass will increase teamplay more then any scoring system.
    why?
    because now teamplay becomes usefull and viable
    it'll then be quick and eazy to say what you want/need and clear for everybody (execpt other team if you do it right:D)

    the only basic facilaties for teamwork so far have been the teamsay key and....
    ummmmm
    nothing
    this ofcourse is bad

    the total teamscore system wont do anthing if you dont make the actual game more team-oriented (talking about the public servers here)
    add the compass allready ok :)


    p.s. more like 350mill on europe, i think. i do know we got more ppl then U.S.A :p
    ofcourse it depends on who you count and dont count (russia, turky ect.
     
  20. The_Fur

    The_Fur Back in black

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    I allready gave several examples of teamwork without communication. You don't need communicatioon per se, ALl you need is some players whos IQ can top that of a rock.

    On top of that as somebody stated before why do you play? If you play only for your score i'm ure you wouldn't mind pissing off to something else that has your nifty scores, leaving inf to the people who play because they actually enjoy playing.
     

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