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You want hardcore realism, or not so?

Discussion in 'General Infiltration Discussion' started by St0rmcaller, Jul 9, 2001.

?

How much realism do you want?

  1. Infantry simulator. 'Nuff said.

    86 vote(s)
    78.9%
  2. More balance than realism.

    20 vote(s)
    18.3%
  3. Running and gunning is real, isn't it?

    3 vote(s)
    2.8%
  1. Camel_Toe(l)

    Camel_Toe(l) Form Fitting

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    I could start my opinion on this thread, but it's been done already and the friggen thread went over 300 posts.

    hmmmm, all I will say is that I disagree with the fur, Snakeyes, Rogue on this matter. If you want to know why then read the past threads on scoring systems.
     
  2. [L]the_Countess

    [L]the_Countess Novice

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    so you agrea ppl should get a reward
    well cant simulate a couple of days R&R in INF (or you'd have to force them not to play but thats no reward, thats punchment :))
    and we sertenly dont get payed like real soldiers do for playing this game
    so points are the next best thing we got for a reward

    even if they work as a team 1 person can get many more frags then another
    simply because of the task they get (or take)
    example : most of your teammates are pinned down infront of main enterens
    sniper fire makes it imposble to get close to let alown go throu
    now 1 guy takes another route and circals around them
    he killz the snipers from behind and hes team can move throu the main enterens and on to the objective
    he helped his team a great deal
    he got many more frags then the rest of hes team
    but without score for frags no point where given to him

    in INF 1 person CAN make all the differens because the squades are not that big
    if you are that person you should see a reward for that (e.g. high score)
    the units in the regular army are usualy bigger and so the individual has less of a impackt and so is less important (specaily considering 1 unit dusnt usualy opperate on its own)

    the reason they dont give rewards in the regular army for killing lots of enamy is because they have no way of knowing who killed who
    believe me if they had a way of knowing who killed who they would (they do keep scores in battle simulators. actualy they keep full stats on everything. yup your read it right the army guys are statwhores)

    taking out the frag score could and so would make ppl play in a verry unnatural manner
    why shot when you can run?
    who needs a gun? your faster without one
    just make sure you get to the objetive as fast as posible
    extreme? yes, but no more extreme then : "hey you killed half a platoon all by yourself unfortunately the president was assasinated. Still here is a medal for killing those people."
    the likelyhood of a platoon succeding in killing the president after half its guys have been shotdown is neglegable

    and i have still not got a satifactory anser for the problem of what to do with the defending team!

    dont get me wrong i do want more teamplay
    but taking out the scores is not the anser
    a system where half to 2/3's (if your good its 1/2 of your score would be teamscore if your bad all of it)
    that way most of your score come's from your preformance as a team
    that would be good for everybody
    you (and me aswell) get your(our) teamplay and we get to keep our individual scores
    realistic gameplay and realistic rewards (killing a enamy is a good thing and so should be rewarded)
    i hope you the_fur can move past your mindset of "frags = bad"
    no offence just seems you have never compromized on that @ all
    if you dont we'll never resolve this because i want to keep fragscores as much as you want to get rid of them
     
  3. Elite_Soldier

    Elite_Soldier -Malice-

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    I have a suggestion

    Do you all know how in SF there is a medal system? Well INF could use a system like that and be more elaborate about it.

    Say you waste a bunch of enemies. You will probably get a combat badge. Or if you are wounded. Than you get a purple heart. And if you are dead, you get nothing.

    I dunno how this will work. The main problem is that it will force people to wait in one position and camp. The benefit is people will be less cautious to continuously move out and attack.

    That way the rusher who attacks from behind annihalating half the enemy will get rewarded for his "tactical skill" and "killer instinct" with a combat badge, or something (Close Combat series anyone?). And a coward who does nothing will get nothing.

    So in this way a standard trooper who gets wounded will get a combat badge and a purple heart and assorted crap. If everybody got a combat badge if they killed at least one person, it would get rid of rushing, as there isnt much incentive to kill someone after your first (for glory maybe, and for the team) . People would still rush, but thats because maybe they feel the need to give their life for the team. Which is fine. But you HAVE to live to get any rewards. It would promote survival. THe exception to this is a team win award or something... everbody gets that, because everybody contributed to the team.
     
  4. yo_momma_eater

    yo_momma_eater Banned

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    HARDCORE all the way!!!

    :p Hardcore is cool, thats why this game is rated mature. Blood and guts all the way. They're trying to make it so realistic, so why shouldn't it be hardcore. The Mature Rating Is 4 A reason.




    y_m_e
     
  5. TheWolf$M.Inc.$

    TheWolf$M.Inc.$ Knife Fiend

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    WTF

    WTF are you talking about, dude? LoL

    :confused::confused::confused::stick::confused::confused::confused:
     
  6. night_strike

    night_strike Banned

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    im going to say what ive stuck to my entire gaming life, u can make a game realistic, but at 1 point it wont be fun any more. so sometimes u may have to sacrifice realism for fun.

    just my opinion.

    n_s:boom:
     
  7. CyanideTriscuit

    CyanideTriscuit UScript hack

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  8. CyanideTriscuit

    CyanideTriscuit UScript hack

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    Hmmm... maybe it was his own stupid way of reminding us that we are waaaaaaaay off topic. Or him being an incredible idiot and not reading the thread before posting. Whatever. Not like I care. My take on scoring: Customizable score board.

    I'm usually at or near the top of the score board (If you're wondering why I say this, it's because SOMEONE implied that all people who want to do away with individual scoring are at the bottom of the score board), and often times I find myself wanting more points, which leads me to rush frag kill rush frag whore rush kill kill frag ugh :(

    I think it would be best for my mental state If I didn't see the individual scores. I know when I'm doing well. That's enough for me. Others want to be stat whores, well let them. Not like I care. I just want to have fun. I'd like to kill more than be killed while I'm at it, but it's still fun to play when I'm playing a horse**** game.

    Fur: You are a stubborn little bastard. While you have some great ideas of your own, you should at least learn to consider an opposing viewpoint once in a while.

    Countess: I always figured that you weren't a native english speaker. I usually keep quiet about peoples' writing errors because

    A) It's rude to point out meaningless errors
    B) The person in question may be a non-native speaker
    C) If the best retort I could dome up with is to attack someone's grammar and punctuation... well, that's just sad

    Your errors actually help me understand your posts because I actually have to take the time to thoroughly read and understand your posts. Unfortunately, some (lazy, arrogant) people see errors and skip over the post, assuming that nothing intelligent could be contained within. Shame on you, snakeyes.
     
  9. Elite_Soldier

    Elite_Soldier -Malice-

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    Calm down CyanideTriscuit

    We just stopped the flaming (I guess). Lets not start another one :)

    I agree with you though. I am often near the top of the scoreboard, and quite a few times on top. I almost always find myself competing with my teammate underneath me, or the top scorer on the other team. I will deliberately pick the lightest loadouts, than run out and attempt to frag as many people as I can with little/no regard for my own safety. I have enough brainpower to realize this isn't realistic :)

    I guess one point for one kill would work. And you also lose a point if you die. Would cause people to use a little more caution. Also TKs minus 3, so it gives incentive to realize what the hell you are shooting at. And finally, maybe the scoreboards shouldn't be shown until the end of the game. Oh yeah, and everyone gets 5 points at the end of a match if their team wins.
     
  10. [L]the_Countess

    [L]the_Countess Novice

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    CyanideTriscuit isnt flaming just saying the truth :)
    ok ok i'll quit now:rolleyes:

    true the current score system dusnt give ppl any insentive to stay alive @ all
    points for staying alive are good a good idea
    but to much and you create a game with only campers.
    to little and the rushing remains
    verry hard, if not imposible, to balance
    i dont think it can be proberly balanced

    a penalty for dying
    sounds verry good on paper
    loss hard won points if you die. would get me to play more carefully:)
    but that could (and will) create negative scores
    and that is verry disharting, espicaly for newbies
    sins this is still verry much a growing mod the newbies are important
    plus tk-ers dont show up so eazaly (im still all for registering tk's seppertly from the points)

    combining the penalty for dying with points @ the end of the round if your team wins could work thou
    you'd only get negative scores if you AND your team REALLY sucked (or are totaly outclassed)
    tk's should still be loged separatly thou (but you should get a penelty on your main score aswell)

    now that i think about it Elite_Soldier
    the scorying system you just invented is VERRY simaler to my idea the idea that i posted a while back in a incredibly long thread, the same thread Camel_Toe(l) was refering to infact
    mine was a little more complicated because it was dealing with more issues like camping @ the end of the round and some other stuff i cant remember now, but its still verry workable
    should i dig it up?

    o btw we are not off topic
    if you had followed the posts:) you would have seen we are trying to find a way, using the scoring system, to make ppl play realisticly(as realisticly as possible on a computergame)
    so still verry much on topic
     
  11. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    Instead of getting a negative score for dying... why not just throw any points you got in-round away.
    So if you die... NO POINTS FOR YOU!
    Or you could divide the points in half instead... just reduce the points earned in some way.

    But,
    I belive tribes2 has an odd dm scoring system, it seems to be based on kind of a "grade point system"
    Campers don't get many points because they don't see much action.
    The (unexperienced)people who fight all the time, and die all the time don't get too many points either.
    Guess who gets the most points. Yup. The guys who kill everything, blatently looking for action, and are good enough to stay alive. :)
    Anyone know what the formula is for that scoring(Tribes2 dm) style? I think it would translate quite nicely over to inf.

    Objectives.. hmm.
    With TDM(eas is a loooong way off), the only 2 "objectives" I see are this:
    1 Kill enemy team.
    2 Keep your team from being killed.
    The second objective really isin't rewarded right now. It quite possibly could be considered more important than the first one.
    Stormcallers scoring system is the best I have seen out of all of them... look it up :)
     
  12. [L]the_Countess

    [L]the_Countess Novice

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    getting no points if you die is to much i think
    that would again be verry newbie unfriendly because they always die
    and so will be stuck with a 0 for score all the time

    and half the score would be hard to with when they put in 1 point per kill
    not a bad idea but it whould create to many issues

    and umm whoudnt the tribes 2 system be verry rusher friendly?
    it would be great for my score thou :D
     
  13. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    I thought you stood still while aiming :)
    And I don't think the t2 system is very rusher friendly...
    If you die, your GPA(?) drops pretty darn quickly.
    It just kinda works as an incentive to fight rather than to hide & camp.
    If a person can kill 7 people without dying, I think we all know that he deserves a reward.
    If a person kills 8 people by running into them with a lit grenade, and dies himself - we can consider him a lamer :)

    Whats wrong with getting 1/2 a point, or just give 2 points per kill (like basketball)?
    We could give 3 points for headshots while we are at it.
     
  14. St0rmcaller

    St0rmcaller [AFA]'s unoffical godfather

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    I still like my communistic idea of scoring. Don't count kills at all, and you lose the prick waving concept.:)
     
  15. Elite_Soldier

    Elite_Soldier -Malice-

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    Another idea...

    Alright, I just thought up of YET ANOTHER brilliant Elite_Soldier idea :)

    If you kill a person, you get a frag. If you die, none of your frags for that round are counted. But if your team wins due to your "noble sacrifice", than everyone gets 5 points, inlcluding dead people. THis is to represent how dead soldiers are often rewarded for possible heroic actions, etc.

    For a headshot, I'm still thinking about this. It is good to award goo marksmanship for snipers, but alot of headshots happen in CQB too, so rushers may get tons of points.

    You get a point if you surivive, but ONLY if you killed at least one person. This would give people incentive to take out some enemies, and not to camp totally waiting for the enemy. Unforunately, these people would still have to be awarded five points per round as well if their team wins. Otherwise the system gets to complicated.

    You will NEVER be able to stop all rushing though. Rushing is a legitimate tactic in the game, and in real life. If you can get the drop on enemies as quickly as possible BEHIND them, than you have it made. Currently, rushing is abit too powerful though. The guy running around a corner with some kind of explosive has a massive advantage over the guy who decided to find cover faraway. And in reality, that corner guy is toast. Unless he's Rambo :D
     
  16. The_Fur

    The_Fur Back in black

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    *sigh* naive little people.


    Frags and team work do NOT go together. Gameing history teaches us that. It has been attempted before (firearms) and it failed miserably. As soon as you have frags people only care about them not about anything else let alone their felow players.

    Even in The Opera where you win on cash basis but frags are still kept you very often see people simply going for the frags while it doesn't bring in any cash.

    FRAGS WILL RUIN ANY GAME.

    since this is the case frags simply have to go. Kick the quake habit and adapt.
     
  17. [L]the_Countess

    [L]the_Countess Novice

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    *sigh* sad little stuburn fool
    here we go again

    frags and teamwork DO go toghter if you packeg it right
    in opera you kill to get to your objective and keep others from doing the same

    in TDM you win by killing everybody
    kill somebody and you complite a objective
    completing objective is good
    good = should be rewared
    reward = points

    if you get 5 points for every round won the frags wont acount for much in your score (this is with 1 kill 1 point)
    so if your team dusnt win you loss

    you base you argument that frag and teamplay dont mix on 1 failed attemt?!
    luckaly we and the gamemakers have more backbone then you seem to have

    ok so much for the_fur
    back to the real world

    "The guy running around a corner with some kind of explosive has a massive advantage over the guy who decided to find cover faraway. And in reality, that corner guy is toast. "

    in reality the other side dusnt know exectly where the enamy can appear nor after how long
    and so cant be waiting for him
    they may be watchfull but they dont have their irons always on that same corner
    on new maps that ppl dont know verry well i find my rushes to be far more effective which proves my point

    this is also the reason onbody play's totaly realistic
    and never will
    you know all maps by hart
    IRL you spent most of your time looking,looking and looking some more
    sins you know exectly where the enamy is in INF there is no need for that

    "And I don't think the t2 system is very rusher friendly...
    If you die, your GPA(?) drops pretty darn quickly. "

    i survive the vast mayoraty of my rushes
    me get biggy points :D
    if a serten route gets me killed more often then not i find another nomater how many ppl i kill with the old one
     
  18. The_Fur

    The_Fur Back in black

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    Countess fragwhore listen up and shut up.

    Frags do not promote realistic behaviour. And since INF is supposed to be a REALISTIC TEAMGAME frags have no place here.

    Frags promote ryunning around rambo style looking for kills. Something normal soldiers DO NOT DO!
     
  19. Elite_Soldier

    Elite_Soldier -Malice-

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    Calm down again guys...

    We don't wanna get this thread deleted.

    It really depends what kind of match it is to determine whether frags determine a place or not. Personally, I would be affected by the loss of a frag count, but it wouldn't be the end of the world. I could still play, and have fun. I can personally tally whether or not I am doing well.

    In team deathmatch, which is the current gameplay mode, frags <b>seem</b> to be needed. There is not going to be many tactics when the objective is to kill the other team. Especially with a reward system that rewards killing the enemy over personal safety. The result is that people, who are naturally competitive, will end up looking for the best way to score. And the best way is to kill as many people as possible. Hence rushing.

    If there WERE no frags, I can't nesseccarily say it would promote teamwork. I would simply be a little more catious... I wouldn't actively go out to support my team. I would still attempt to take down as many enemies as possible.

    With that being said, I still enjoy teamwork. If I see about two or more people acting together as a force, I will usually just join in. It really is alot more fun. When I act in a team role like this, I usually don't care about my score, becase it is a TEAM effort. The only problem is the UT engine doesn't really promote teamwork. It is far too easy to shoot teammates, and some won't want a teammate for fear of being shot. This has happened many times to me when I thought someone was covering me, a guy jumps in front of me and my trigger happy partner unleashes a hail of fire at me, killing only me and letting the assaulter kill him.

    Although it is exceedingly unrealistic, the removal of friendly fire encourage teamwork. TO, SF and at some levels even CS have some teamwork due to no friendly fire. Now people have nothing to fear banding together, because they can unleash a hail of fire at anyone rounding that corner, and be sure to kill him, without killing each other. Right now, hordes of people sticking together are just begging to be 'naded. Bigger maps would help...

    I don't think chanigng the scoring system will help that much. But the scoring system right now, for EVERYONE, is faulty. This is the issue at heart, and this is the issue that needs to be changed.

    Here are three unrealistic options that would almost ensure teamwork:

    1. No friendly fire

    As I said before this is exceedingly unrealistic... but it seems too many players aren't intelligent enough to handle their weapons. When there is no fear of killing your teammate, you usually don't mind them covering you, or you don't mind teammates in a narrow corridor. It has happened to me that when I fire, because of lag, a guy appears right in front of me and gets shot.

    2. Slower running speed

    God oh mighty I hope the team changes this. I can't run this fast even with no equipment... and I'm not that slow :) Slower running speed= more teamplay. In almost every mod in existence. SF, TO, and even CS before a few patches. When you are slower, you can't dodge bullets as easy, and make a bigger target. You want someone covering youm shooting at likely enemy positions, while you run. Right now, if you carry less enough, you can side strafe sniper fire on EP. Oh yeah, while on that topic, strafing speed needs to be reduced. I would be real impressed in reality if I could strafe that fast.

    3. No explosive weaponry

    Maybe that is too extreme. What I meant was that there should be no 40mm. They are extremely powerful. Hanging around teammates is jsut an excuse for somebody to (rightfully) nade you and your whole group. Without this weapon, they will be forced to adapt, such as ambushing you or something. Even better, and possibly likely, they will band together in their own teams to destroy you.

    These are not pretty options... but they are ones that will fix the teamplay. Note I do not personally support these. These are just things I thought of in msot games that helped teamplay. SF didn't include a grenade launcher because of gameplay reasons. Perhaps INF too...

    Nah, forget the grenade thing. I couldn't live without my m203 on EP :)
     
  20. {DA}TNT_$sp00ky

    {DA}TNT_$sp00ky A SPOOK WITH A GUN

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    well heres my thoughts on this.... in real warfare the brave (foolhardy) may get kiils and look cool ...but when the battle is over it is the survivors who reep the reward .....not the dead rambo his spoils.. go to his wife by the way of a nice flag and sympathetic letter but i understand the countess being against any such idea as TEAM WORK as he is a totaL loner who would not be able to top a game and then tell every one how much he loves himself .. i admire his die like a man on his feet style .. i use it my self but his self love only takes away how well he played and make him look like a real chump
     

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