"Winning hearts and minds.."

[NTKB]

the best thing the US can do in iraq (beside actually doing their job ) is to set up camps inside cities and popular districts, learn the language and the culture, and buy and eat local food instead of fries and sandwitches. I've seen a little documentary about french soldiers in foreign countries. They usually do lots of effort to get along with the local population (for instance the french Chef visiting the popular markets every morning for the daily meals . The US army on the other hand usually settles away from the cities, even in peace time or in friendly countries

Yeah and france was lovingly accepted in great places like Indo-China.

 

[Crazy_Ivan]

the dutch are doing quite well too (nationalistic pimpage...)
With the numer of moroccans and turks in our armed forces there's always someone at hand who at least can read arabic.

 

[JaFO]

Those yankees probably think they just need to speak louder if someone doesn't understand them

btw :
those palaces aren't soo 'great' if there's no running water or electricity, which is kind of the #1 problem the ordinary people in Iraq have after the americans disabled most of their power during the war ...

// --
As for the Dutch in Iraq ... as usual they don't have the equipment or the manpower to do their job. So I guess the only reason they haven't had an attack is probably because either :
(a) they couldn't find them
(b) there's nothing to destroy ...

Never mind that their union is worried that it might not be safe for them. (ghee guys ... what did you think the army was ? Boy scouts ?)

Altough otoh our politicians do have some rather unrealistic opinions of what our army could do. I guess they rather look good instead of doing something useful.

 

[Saladin]

"Also the Iraqis have a general hatred for their own media due to the fact that it is way over the top anti American and not bothering to show the vast improvements in the country."

i used to get Iraqi tv on my dish before the invasion, then they blew it up....and then they made another one, and then they blew it up....and now there isnt any...so what iraqi media?

 

[Big_Duke_06]

...those palaces aren't soo 'great' if there's no running water or electricity, which is kind of the #1 problem the ordinary people in Iraq have after the americans disabled most of their power during the war ....

Not quite, Beavis. The US was very careful about the targets hit during the war. We knew we'd be rebuilding the country, so why make more work for ourselves? Military targets were hit, but the infrastructure was spared as much as possible. The reason so many of the utilities are out is not the fault of the US - they were attacked by Saddam loyalists.

Matthew

 

[(SDS)benmcl]

My fault Saladin. I really meant TV news in the mid east although I believe that some Iraqi news TV is back up.

 

[MetalMickey]

The reason so many of the utilities are out is not the fault of the US - they were attacked by Saddam loyalists.

Oh I see, the defenders attacked their own positions during the war. That makes sense.

 

[Keiichi]

Oh I see, the defenders attacked their own positions during the war. That makes sense.

Actually, MM, Duke is right. Remember that water main that was ruptured a while ago? It was a bomb planted by pro-Saddam forces. They destroy Iraq's infrastructure because they know that every day Baghdad goes without power, water or other essential utilities only increases the average Iraqi's belief that life was better with Saddam in power.

-Keiichi

 

[Big_Duke_06]

Actually, MM, Duke is right. Remember that water main that was ruptured a while ago? It was a bomb planted by pro-Saddam forces. They destroy Iraq's infrastructure because they know that every day Baghdad goes without power, water or other essential utilities only increases the average Iraqi's belief that life was better with Saddam in power.

Yup. The Saddam loyalists (and other anti-American groups) realize that the ignorant masses will hear that water and electricity are out in Baghdad and immediately think it was the US that did it... Thus engendering bad thoughts about the US.

Worked on you, didn't it?

Matthew

 

[W.R]

That was quite extreme just for some wood.
If the owner really is a taxi driver as said; those soldiers should feel real proud they just made sure his family would ****in starve.

 

[Nightmare]

Actually, MM, Duke is right. Remember that water main that was ruptured a while ago? It was a bomb planted by pro-Saddam forces. They destroy Iraq's infrastructure because they know that every day Baghdad goes without power, water or other essential utilities only increases the average Iraqi's belief that life was better with Saddam in power.

-Keiichi

Mostly right, not totally. The infrastructure has been in a shambles since the last war, and due to sanctions Saddam couldn't buy spare parts. Water purification equipment was blacklisted since it could be used to create chemical weapons. Power plants haven't exactly been working at 100% either.

Smuggling the parts might have been possible, but why bother? It was better for Saddam to point out how the evil sanctions killed people. He's had more than ten years to tell people how the UN (and especially the US) cares nothing if a few more Iraqi die because there's not enough pure water. Well, every single day without water or power makes that clear to them - again.

The destruction of infrastructure works because people can see it. They know it's the same guys who crippled the system during the Gulf war who fail to protect it now. Someone might suggest it's on purpose. More reconstruction contracts for GW Bush's friends, you see.

 

[The_Pikeman]

More reconstruction contracts for GW Bush's friends, you see.

Yea and they are gonna get a great deal as GW picked the company from a very select few ..... no over charging there then.
-How.

 

[MetalMickey]

Keichi is right, I remember that water main being attacked by the resistance to the occupation. That was some weeks after hostilities were declared over though.

Power and water supplies were disrupted/destroyed pretty much from the first night of the bombing of Baghdad though. Are we suggesting that this wasnt the work of the US military, but of the Iraqi military now?

Post some sources of Iraqis destroying their own infrastructure during the 3 weeks of the war. Id be interested to read them.

 

[JaFO]

// Keiichi :
If a few freedomfighters can do that much damage after the war is over ... then I wonder what Bush was thinking when he said so.

 

[-Snakebite-]

We've seen how much damage 'freedom fighters' can do with the recent bomb in Turkey. I had to mail that clip around to a few of my mates at work, most were shocked

I was for the war, I kinda still am. The achieved a lot, but its a very messy situation over there. One thing that gets me is people writing letters complaining that we can afford to pay for a war, but can't afford to pay more benifit (or whatever), do they think we go to war for fun?

 

[JaFO]

 

[kungpaosamuraiii]

About that cartoon, Iraq isn't that similar to Viet Nam.


In Viet Nam American forces were sent into Viet Nam against the will of the leader who was assassinated by the CIA. These troops came to fight for the people against communists to the north. Even if all America really needed to do was provide arms and supplies and the ARVN would've taken care of the rest.

Kennedy was an arrogant POS.


In Iraq, America invaded Iraq and 'liberated' instead of 'protected'. In both cases the war didn't go as planned but GWB's war in Iraq is going substantially better than Kennedy's and Johnson's was in Viet Nam, ie: it's actually went somewhere. While the leader of Iraq obviously didn't will the American troops to invade, Americans didn't go in as defenders but as invaders/liberators.

At Viet Nam the VC and the NVA were fighting a lot more dedicatedly than in Iraq. As you can all tell by the fact that Viet Nam comprised of 20-25 years worth of constant harrassment to all out battles resulting in massive casualties for both sides. Though the forces in Iraq are suffering many casualties, they are not suffering nearly as many and have won the 'war' in a much much shorter time.

This may be because the landscape of Viet Nam lends itself to ambushes and fierce close fighting with little short guys with AKs jumping out of every friggin hole and dissappearing after a 30 rnd burst but even then, the Viet Namese would not have just deserted their bases and leave all their tanks.

I just realized that most of what I just said really has little relevancies but oh well, I'll sum up what my original point was:

-Iraq and Viet Nam are too very different war

*Bush came in as a preemptive strike against possible WMD strikes
*Kennedy went in to stop the spread of communism
*This war is short
*Viet Nam was long
*Viet Namese needed the help of America but didn't get it (instead troops came in to take over the entire war effort)
*Iraquis need help in rebuilding infrastructure and America is trying to get that through
*In Viet Nam America withdrew all support at a random moment leaving ARVN with no hope in defeating the NVA
*in Iraq America is still there at a critical time NOT withdrawing from an onslaught of terrorists

-Similarities are the following that I see:
*both times there was little support or divided support
*both times the war was started by a president who didn't foresee the consequences


While there are probably a lot more similarites, all wars have similarities. Viet Nam is very unlike Iraq for reasons stated. And most obviously, the opposing army has been defeated in Iraq. All that remains is an unofficial force conducting guerilla warfare strikes on Coalition forces that have a presence in the entire country.

 

[W.R]

This war is short? As I see it its still going on and I see no end in sight… It is guerilla warfare as was Vietnam...

 

[Spier]

While there are probably a lot more similarites, all wars have similarities. Viet Nam is very unlike Iraq for reasons stated. And most obviously, the opposing army has been defeated in Iraq. All that remains is an unofficial force conducting guerilla warfare strikes on Coalition forces that have a presence in the entire country.

The NVA was at several points practically wiped out as a fighting formation, much in the same way as the Iraqi army is. IIRC, the NVA NEVER beat the US in open battle, it was guerilla warfare that won the war. For casualty numbers then Al Jazeera had a nice article about that a while ago:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/FFB13128-DC3E-4AF9-92D0-993351193D4B.htm

It is Al Jazeera, but it still makes an almost valid point.

 

[Big_Duke_06]

This war is short? As I see it its still going on and I see no end in sight… It is guerilla warfare as was Vietnam...

Unfortunately, I have to agree. What's worse is I feel that the worst is yet to come. And I say that as a supporter of GWB and the decision to liberate Iraq.

And regarding the Al Jazeera story - of course more US soldiers have been killed in Iraq than in the first years of the Viet Nam conflict. In those early years (1962-1964), US involvement was still limited, serving mostly as advisors. The large commitment of troops didn't occur until later. Contrast that with the fact that the US has over 100,000 troops in Iraq right now. My thought on the article was "Well, duh."

It's another attempt to stir the pot and get the ignorant masses pissed off.

Matthew