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"Winning hearts and minds.."

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Spier, Nov 23, 2003.

  1. Freon

    Freon Braaaaiinss...

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    As you said yourself, iraq needs policing, not a "fighting spirit". France often send gendarmes in this kind of situation. Their job is to stop looting and prevent tensions that could lead to civil wars. But they do that in a respectful manner and not as an occupation force. These guys on the video are cowboys, they have nothing to do in Iraq.
     
  2. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    Hence, the error in pre-planning for this mission. Those guys may be "cowboys" as you put it, but I don't necessarily blame the position that they are put in on them, I blame it on the administration, who thought that we would waltz in there and the masses would greet us with open arms. I don't think necessarily that the plan was that horrible, just that they didn't have a very well conceived or executed plan for what is going on in Iraq today. Doesn't mean it can't be fixed, just means that it was poorly planned, in my opinion. Again, those guys, in that video are warriors, trained as such. Not holding hands, touchy-feely problem solvers. I think we are arguing the same thing. My only point is, we shouldn't blame the soldiers in this incident nearly as much as we should blame the administrators and planners that clearly DID NOT plan for such a contingency and drastic and sudden change in mission.

    AND, Freon, (not a personal attack, so don't get offended) since the French Gendarmes are so good at policing, and so available, why doesn't the French government send them over, fix it, and be the heroes and world players that they so desperately seem to want to be? Honestly, if there is a better solution, I sure as hell would be happy to hear it, see it implemented, and give them credit for fixing the problem. It is easy to "Monday Morning Quarterback" a game that you aren't in. Instead of telling us how bad we suck, why can't someone suggest a SOLUTION to the problem?
     
  3. The_Pikeman

    The_Pikeman Also known as Howski

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    They did offer to send troops along with russian IIRC but the talks stalled because the US wanted to be in command of the troops and they wanted the UN to be ... again IIRC the french's main fear was that the US would retreat and leave the **** jobs to the french as a sort of punishment. Like it or not your troops arn't exactly friendly towards teh french you must of seen that pic of the tank with "First Bagdad next paris" on it. As for the 82nd yea they are doing a half decent job but from what I've heared they are the only one. Like the Iraqi said the US troops are getting more and more scared and, because of that, agressive.
    -How.
     
  4. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    No Pikeman, I did not see that tank. Poor taste, and ignorant, agreed. And although I appreciate the fact that the French and others were concerned about being relegated to crappy jobs, I'm sure that diplomatic talks could be brokered to ensure that they could attend to peacekeeping duties. My point is, that if they wanted to be involved, I'm sure they could be. Although I do appreciate the info, and I stand corrected.

    I'm glad you feel that way about the 82d, I'm a former 82d trooper. But rest assured, those fellas are some of the hardest headed, hardest minded, sarcastic and aggressive folks that the US Army has to offer. (I'm not comparing to USMC, SEALS, Rangers, SF, etc. :D , so all you SOCOM types don't get pissed. :lol: )

    My only real point in all of that, is that warriors are best suited and trained for combat. They are not civil affairs, PSYOPS, or Corps of Engineers folks. That's all. It's like getting mad at a guy for winning the old UFC, cuz he cheated. Hehe. :D

    And as far as getting scared and "trigger happy" or aggressive, to me at least, that's understandable given the current climate and daily attacks on their comrades. Again, back to planners needing a better plan.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2003
  5. Big_Duke_06

    Big_Duke_06 Charlie Don't Surf!

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    I agree that the soldiers went beyond what was necessary in that situation. And clearly they were playing up to the cameras - and I think we can all agree that even fairly intelligent people sometimes do some stupid things when in front of cameras. That's universal. I agree that firing handguns at the car was unnecessary. And probably even driving the tank over the dude's car.

    But here's the thing - Iraq was under martial law at the time. And they were looting. I'm not gonna say that I've never broken any laws, but I do know that if/when I break said laws, there are consequences if I get caught. And I need to consider those consequences before I go and break the laws.

    cleve-ntt, using your logic, if I was going through a really long dry spell, it would be okay for me to rape your mother because I had needs?? Clearly, no. Obviously I'm overstating things and giving a very poor example. But I'm doing so to make a point. It's just as easy to say something like he was poor and needed it. And just as dangerous.

    That's how society works - there are laws and consequences for breaking those laws. Without laws and consequences, society crumbles into anarchy.

    Couple quick points to address:

    Actually, I thought the reason was that the US didn't want US troops under UN command more than anything. And this is not anything new. AFAIK, US troops have only rarely been under the command of the UN.

    The more I thought about what you said, the more pissed off I got. Don't forget that the cost of your nation's freedom was paid for in a not inconsequential number of young American lives. We helped free Europe from the Nazis - and now you're trying to say we're as bad? Can't have it both ways.

    [sarcasm]Riiiight. The sanctions. I forgot about those. Afterall, it was the sanctions that abducted, tortured, raped, and murdered thousands of Iraqi citizens. And it was the sanctions that gassed the Kurds killing thousands, including women and children. Man, those sanctions were bad![/sarcasm]

    Again, you non-Americans really have your fingers on the pulse of political happenings in this country! Here's an important datapoint - GWB wants the $89 Billion US economic aid package to be a grant, as in the Iraqis won't have to pay it back, it would be on the US taxpayers' nickel. It's the democrats that are trying to turn this package into a loan, one to be repaid in oil.

    Matthew
     
  6. Nightmare

    Nightmare Only human

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    What's with the sarcasm tags? Those sanctions WERE bad. Shortages of medical supplies alone killed many. Some say half a million :eek:

    BTW, after the Gulf war the only one able to hunt Kurds in Iraq was Turkey. Save the Kurds from Saddam so the Turks can kill them instead?
     
  7. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    Pretty good post BigDuke. Although, I AM curious, by what method did our troops "announce" martial law. AFAIK, the US made a mistake by allowing, hell, almost encouraging looting by ignoring it for quite a spell. I just wonder if they made announcements, dropped leaflets, what? Clearly, the Iraqi people are used to being told what to do, when to do it, and I think that if the US would have PLANNED for the looting and stopped it from the outset, it might have helped. But again, that's hindsight, which is always 20/20. And I'm not saying that the Iraqis should be manipulated or oppressed, it's just a fact that they are conditioned to orders, and orders from the outset might have been a good idea.

    In addition, I think in the past we've actually supplied UN commanded US troops in several circumstances. I can only speak from what I know, but I do know that several soldiers from the 82d did 6 month tours of peacekeeping duty in the Sinai. Complete with blue berets and UN patches. Now, I did a quick search and found this: http://www.stimson.org/fopo/?SN=FO20030620565 I didn't research the background of this organization, but I have no reason to dispute the numbers. Interestingly though, it does show that we are a minute contribution to current UN missions. Make of that what you will.

    And I couldn't agree with you more regarding those outside America and their view of the "real America". It seems to be as full of media misguiding as our own views of our country. :lol: For some reason, those outside of our country love Bill Clinton as much as the French love Jerry Lewis and the Germans love David Hasselhoff. :lol: But seriously, you are dead on about the loan/grant package. Dead on, and it's unfortunate.

    Nightmare, you are right, the sanctions were bad. But unfortunately, the sanctions were put in place because of conditions placed on Hussein which he refused to acknowledge or comply with. IMHO, placing the blame for the suffering of the Iraqi people squarely on the US, is misplaced blame, at best. Hussein never bothered to even provide food received from the US in the "Oil for Food Program" to the masses that needed it. It's like blaming a judge for the death of inmate that he sent to prison for child molestation. Okay, maybe a bad example, but you get my point.
     
  8. Freon

    Freon Braaaaiinss...

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    actually, France volunteered to form iraqi police officers ;)
     
  9. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    Fair enough, I stand corrected again. However, I applied for, and ultimately passed on, a one year contract to work in Iraq as a police advisor, through these folks: http://www.policemission.com/

    What became of the French police initiative in Iraq?
     
  10. Hadmar

    Hadmar Queen Bitch of the Universe

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    I have to kill you now, sorry. :(


    :p
     
  11. 5eleven

    5eleven I don't give a f**k, call the Chaplain

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    LMFAO! :lol: A bit of double entendre sarcasm, glad you liked it. :D
     
  12. The_Pikeman

    The_Pikeman Also known as Howski

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    Thats just a peice of **** I'm sorry but you don't need to have sex there is no life ending conciqences of not having sex but unike not having enough heat to survive...... remember where they are nights gett pretty damm cold and no infostructure = no heating.


    Yea they did such a good job too...... what was the only ministry that had a guard and therfor didn't get looted ..... oh yea it was the oil ministry.



    Again I might be wrong but talks were started and then finished because the US adminisration would not budge an inch...



    I'd say that the blame is 50/50 ... I mean look at the sanctions did they hurt anyone but the average Iraqi, I'm sure there were alot of better options.
    -How.
     
  13. The_Pikeman

    The_Pikeman Also known as Howski

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    Well I got the tank message slightly wrong SSDS
    [​IMG]
    -How.
     
  14. Freon

    Freon Braaaaiinss...

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    ROFL! :lol:
     
  15. MetalMickey

    MetalMickey Banned

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    I find it interesting that you have no problems with war, with all its horrors, as a neccessary evil to bring liberty and freedom as Iraqis, but you cant seem stretch to stealing wood in a powerless city being a neccessary evil.
     
  16. Big_Duke_06

    Big_Duke_06 Charlie Don't Surf!

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    Ah yes, heating. Let's see, this incident likely happened very shortly after the "end of major combat operations" in Iraq (and unfortunate choice of words and poor timing by the Bush administration) - so that would be late April or early May. I live in Phoenix, AZ - a very similar climate to Baghdad, Iraq. And I can assure you, in late April/early May, heat is not my primary concern! Daily high temps typically hover at the 100F mark, and while it does cool off at night, it doesn't cool off as much as you'd think. Claiming that this guy needed the wood to burn to keep warm is a stretch at best. You can burn all the wood you like, it ain't gonna keep you cool. If he was looting an airconditioning unit, then I'd understand.

    Source?

    Remember, those sanctions were passed unanimously by the UN security council - which includes Germany and France. So what would have been better options? And how can we NOT hold the leader of a nation responsible for the deaths of his own people - when these deaths were caused by his decisions?

    You know what really irks me? The very people that right now are bitching and moaning that the US shouldn't be in Iraq... If the US suddenly decided tomorrow to withdraw every last troop, they'd be the ones complaining about how we just abandoned the people of Iraq and that they deserve better and it's our responsibility to help them rebuild.

    The US truly is in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. No matter what course of action we take, someone is gonna be pissed off about it, and the national pastime of "Old Europe" seems to be sniping the US in the media.

    So what do we do? We'll continue to do what is the right moral thing to do - help the Iraqi people rebuild their country and install a government of the people, for the people. A government that won't seek out and use weapons of mass destruction on it's own people or others, a government that won't arbitrarily abduct, torture, rape, and murder it's own citizens.

    But still we'll get hell for it. I just have one question... Where were all these voices of dissent when it was the Marshall Plan going forward, and the rebuilding of the nations of Europe? How come the US wasn't evil for helping those nations rebuild?

    Matthew
     
  17. kungpaosamuraiii

    kungpaosamuraiii HOVER TANKS

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    Hmm, I'm beginning to see parallels here....


    US, damned if withdraw, damned if no withdrawal

    SS, damned if release, damned if no releasing



    If US withdraws now, world would criticise America for abandonment

    If SS released before now, the community would criticise the team for a buggy half finished product


    US, staying in Iraq for probably a long time to right now at least trying to flatten out the terrorists and whatnot

    SS, (during development) didn't release 2.9 for a long time trying to squah all the bugs



    US, under much criticism from most of the world for prolonged occupation

    SS, under much criticism from a lot of the community for prolonged betatesting


    US, spending much time, effort, money on Iraq situation right now

    SS, spent much (we all know how much time they spent) time, effort, and possibly a little money (like Beppo taking vacations to work purely on INF)



    US, declared an end to major fighting but bad stuff is still happening

    SS, declared an end to further development but CDs get delayed coming out




    :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2003
  18. Hadmar

    Hadmar Queen Bitch of the Universe

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    Well then I suppose the wood is worthless to the original owner now that a tank gave it a love hug. Way to go!
    You couse the mess, you clean it. That dosn't mean everyone is happy that you coused the mess in the first place. Is that abstract enough to understand it?
    You might want o move to iraq then seeing how it's government will be better than your own.
    *edit* Actualy, if you add "freedom of speech", "non survilance happy" and "works in the interest of the people rather than the interests of some industrys" I might consider joining you! :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2003
  19. MetalMickey

    MetalMickey Banned

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    Watch him dance! Do they cook their food by leaving it out in the sun too? Maybe they can heat their water that way. Im sure its not neccessary to boil water somewhere where the water supply has been off for weeks!

    Damn criminals, we should crush their houses next.
     
  20. The_Pikeman

    The_Pikeman Also known as Howski

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    Well I could be wrong but I do remember the media saying Iraq was going through a cold spell around that time.
    As for a source on the oil ministry I'll look but it was on TV and a while ago .... so dont hold your breath.

    And? give me one example where I or any of the "bitching and moaning" people have said that saddam was right in his actions or a nice man. Go on. As for the UN bit well if you read the context the 50/50 bit was reffering to saddam not the US but then I oviously hate the US so much that anything I say is "Anti-american"


    Yea the hate campaign against the last US presendent was terrible wasn't it all those people protesting too .... :rolleyes:


    Right then I'll restate the point that everyone with half a brain can see, its NOT you helping them to rebuild the country thats the problem it's the way you went/are going about it. Were are the post with "let the Iraqis die"? You invaded a country againt all international law againt all moral grounds (lets not forget that the plight{SP?} of the iraqi people only become an issue after the WMD didn't go down well) and now you complain that people you threatened with sevear consiquences if they didn't help you are reluctant to let you control their troops. No one whats the US to withdraw they want a multinational peace keeping force not one made up of the US + people that wont argue.


    Well at the moment the US martial goverment has done 3 out of the 4 quite reguarly lets see how long the fourth takes.


    Ah chalk and cheese so hard to tell apart.
    -How.
     

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