Will Epic guarantee the elimination of cheating in 2k7?

[EL BOURIKO]

Well i maybe naive once again because i am not totally aware about all these cheating things and internet stuff...

... but can t we imagine that instead of checking the ID of players with a CD key (that obviously one can change in an easy way on some illegal places) we could check the ID through personnal IP adress?

 

[edhe]

IPs change daily, or at request, never mind proxying etc, so no.

Basically, there is no way you can stop people from getting into a game. They can buy a new copy of the game, warez it, change keys, change IPs, change ISPs if necessary.

If poeple really want to be utter pain in the asses, then they can be.

All you can do is make it hard, with cd key hashes, tight control on *getting* these keys necessary online/email registration? etc. You can't stop human nature.

 

[The_Head]

adding on to edhe's point. If they really want to go through all the hassle just to get slightly better stats and ruin others peoples fun they need to take a good look at there own lives.
On the witnessing cheating front. I have had 2 definent experiences of it, first one was on an iCTF server running Colossus. Someone had a speedhack and could cross the level in less than 10 seconds. (very fast if you remember the size of collosus)
Other time I watched my brother procede to play an aimbot on a 1on1 IG server.

Havent seen anything more recently though

 

[ReTox]

"There are people that cheat and nothing in the computer world can be called 100% secure so there will always be cheating in games".

This seems to be the common "thread" of the replies to Ubl's post, But why should a game require its users to write their own security to fill the gap? Its like buying a car and you have to install your own airbags to make it safe.

How many leagues/ladders require Anti-Tcc because cheating is a problem?

How many different user written packages try to combat cheating in the UT world?

Punkbuster may be flawed but at least its a try and at least its a constantly updated part of the game. There is zilch for security in UT out of the box.

I've been playing COD:UO for about a year now and I have yet to get owned by a botter in that game, but I've seen LOTS of botters in my days as a server admin for UT2004 and as a player on other clan servers.

I applaude Wormbo for stepping to the plate but I'm also ticked at Epic for having an environment where Wormbo NEEDED to write Anti-Tcc and NEEDED to keep updating it so much. If Epic has ever approached Wormbo about integration of Anti-Tcc then my post is mute but if they haven't then they have done more to hurt the game then improve it.

For the Epic lurkers - Please, PLEASE add some decent security to 2K7.

Just my .02

 

[thatcher]

Well most people get their game id banned for life unless they can prove otherwise

Banned by who? Only individual admins. (Maybe small collections of admins who chose to share log files.)

If Epic built auto-permaban functionality into the game, it would be a step in the right direction, IMHO. Yes - there would need to be safeguards. Yes - a new CDkey may not be so hard to find. etc etc.

But imagine a UT environment where anti-cheat measures were built into the game instead of being reliant on individual server admins to maintain an up-to-date 3rd party product which has also been configured properly and where a cheater will get caught and the effect of being caught is automatically reflected on EVERY server. Of course cheaters can reinstall with another CDkey but the point is that online cheating would have been made more bothersome.

To EL BOURIKO who has seen few cheats in UT2k4, I say he is lucky. To me, its been much worse than in 2k3. Maybe its more obvious to spot in the instagib world where I usually find myself? If cheating is not given appropriate concern by Epic, it will harm ongoing activity in UT2k7 just as badly as it has surely done in UT2k4. If they don't recognise that, it speaks volumes to me about their commitment to people who buy their game.

To Keltare who says cheating is not rampant, I would ask how would anyone really know? The system is undeniably flawed and vulnerable: so who can be 100% about anyone under such circumstances?

Finally, to Wormbo... I have much respect for the work you have done with AntiTCC and other products. Epic should be ashamed that they could not have done more to secure their product on their own. I applaud you.

 

[Selerox]

Cheaters I helped to ban = 4 and counting.

In sloe to 6 years playing UT games, I have seen a grand total of 5 incidences of cheating in-game. It's not a big problem.

Does UT2007 need some form of anti-cheat? Certainly. Did the anti-cheat work done by Epic for UT2003/2004 do anything? No. Did the community make the game safer? Yes. Will that situation continue with UT2007? Probably. All easy questions with easy answers.

I can't remember who said it (so I can't credit them for it), but someone once said that the best cheat protection for a game is a clued up and active player and server admin community. Which I completely agree with. If players took the time to report cheats + details to server admins who activly take action against cheaters then the game would be a whole lot safer than it already is. The development of the UTAN system makes that player/admin relationship even more powerful. UTAN being fully integrated into the game (and without the ability to allow banned players to play on servers) would be a huge bonus.

So, I'll ask the question back to UBL + others. What are you doing to help remove cheats from the game?

 

[EL BOURIKO]

To EL BOURIKO who has seen few cheats in UT2k4, I say he is lucky. To me, its been much worse than in 2k3. Maybe its more obvious to spot in the instagib world where I usually find myself? If cheating is not given appropriate concern by Epic, it will harm ongoing activity in UT2k7 just as badly as it has surely done in UT2k4. If they don't recognise that, it speaks volumes to me about their commitment to people who buy their game.

well actually I have seen few that were cheaters for sure, but I met many more that I highly suspected of being cheaters too. But well, I am often naive, and I want to believe that these highly suspected players were maybe some top rank players...In fact, it s a bit embarrassing to blame someone if they are just extremely good and no cheater at all :S .
If someone have the recipe to sort out for sure extremely good players from stinky brainless frustrated impotent cheaters, then send it to me....

 

[ReTox]

So, I'll ask the question back to UBL + others. What are you doing to help remove cheats from the game?

Again with the owness to the user to "fix" the game. This is what we are trying to stop! Why the hell should I spend a day e-mailing every admin to every server, then go to every forum and every UT site to post a botters GUID? Can you promise me that my forum posts will stop that botter from playing or that their GUID will populate to every game server? No you can not so I think your question is flawed, yep pretty darn sure its flawed. It should not be up to us to secure the game!

Would you let Microsoft off if they decided to just not do security (err... at all) and let the users fix it? MS gets raked over the coals about security and Epic should fall under the same scrutiny, as should any software company. They both deliver a software based product don't they? Why is a game any different? If UT allowed someone to crack into your system you would be PISSED and screaming "Hey Epic!! Fix This NOW!!!".

I think the big problem is that we have become too "used" to cheaters in our games. We sit back and quietly rage internally but say things like "Well, what can you do?" or "Its just part of the game". Its BS is what it is.

 

[thatcher]

UTAN being fully integrated into the game (and without the ability to allow banned players to play on servers) would be a huge bonus.

Exactly. (And throw in an automated way for cheaters to get themselves onto the banlist!)

That's why it has to come from Epic, of course, not the community. No doubt the community has filled a gaping hole rather better than any attempt from Epic to date but AntiTCC, UTAN and other products must be added and kept up-to-date by individual server admins - when an ideal solution would be to have them integrated into the game.

[Aside: UT2k3 had no in-game mapvote system, but presumably due to to demand and the 2k3 success of UT2Vote and others, an in-game system was introduced for 2k4. The continued support from UT2Vote did not stop Epic building a mapvote into the game - so why not add anti-cheat functionality to 2k7?]

So, I'll ask the question back to UBL + others. What are you doing to help remove cheats from the game?

Its not really right or appropriate, I think, to ask what a user is doing to remove cheats from the game. As a developer myself (non-gaming products), I happily receive constructive criticism from users of my code and don't expect any of them to contribute directly. It is arrogant for any closed-source developer to demand money for their product and expect others to patch up holes. Any criticism of Epic during this thread has been generally constructive, I think, in that the issue has been highlighted as a concern to at least some of their users. Now we have to see if Epic welcome such feedback in order to deliver a product its customers want.

 

[Selerox]

Complacancy = Nothing

It should not be up to us to secure the game!

Maybe not, but does that excuse an attitude of utter complacency? Not a chance in hell.

Yes, the game should be secure, but that doesn't mean for a second that players don't have a responsibility to assist when they can.

Cheat protection relies on the community as much as the community relies on cheat protection. Get used to that fact and start helping anyone and everyone who wants to stop cheats, wether they're Epic or in the community.

 

[UBL]

IPs change daily, or at request, never mind proxying etc, so no.

Basically, there is no way you can stop people from getting into a game. They can buy a new copy of the game, warez it, change keys, change IPs, change ISPs if necessary.

If poeple really want to be utter pain in the asses, then they can be.

All you can do is make it hard, with cd key hashes, tight control on *getting* these keys necessary online/email registration? etc. You can't stop human nature.

tie it to a MAC address with self update.

 

[UBL]

In sloe to 6 years playing UT games, I have seen a grand total of 5 incidences of cheating in-game. It's not a big problem.

Does UT2007 need some form of anti-cheat? Certainly. Did the anti-cheat work done by Epic for UT2003/2004 do anything? No. Did the community make the game safer? Yes. Will that situation continue with UT2007? Probably. All easy questions with easy answers.

I can't remember who said it (so I can't credit them for it), but someone once said that the best cheat protection for a game is a clued up and active player and server admin community. Which I completely agree with. If players took the time to report cheats + details to server admins who activly take action against cheaters then the game would be a whole lot safer than it already is. The development of the UTAN system makes that player/admin relationship even more powerful. UTAN being fully integrated into the game (and without the ability to allow banned players to play on servers) would be a huge bonus.

So, I'll ask the question back to UBL + others. What are you doing to help remove cheats from the game?

My minimum bill rate for what I do as a profession is $125/hr. If Epic wants to retain me I will play UT policeman. By example:

I coordinated two very prolific programmers capable of delivering superior security as an admin of a well know gib league/ladder and as a former member of the UT leadership council. They were accepted into a development team of 6, provided full disclosure of all testing and step protocols, fully disclosed, while the brillance of this leadership council never had any guidance for the developers in terms of testing. The two I speak of also played competitively, on a ladder in the league that most of the leadership were also admins. They get caught with a helios in the system folder and disqualified by the same set of fools who asked them to be part of the development team that they provided all test and development documentation to date.

Where is the incentive? Anyone, including myself, who tries to improve the environment will be ridiculed regardless of how fact based or presentation. Take Wormbo all you here is F N mid game check, not wow I really give props to the guy, it is the basic nature of the so called community referenced.

What I am currently doing is closing down the environment to just those within a specific player base that are close freinds for long periods of time. This reduces the play to about 25-30 players, but for the most part we are certain that our relationships will carry the integrity.

It is a joke to me that people in here state all is well in 2k4 it is a pathetic mess, which I agree is not worth fixing at this time. Those cards have been played, water under the bridge. Yes, I get sick of noobs using cheat excuses, and ping issues, server spikes. We have a time out channel in ts we drop people into when they rant too much. What I am trying to do here is justify the wait and training time spent now until 2k7 releases.

If the scope was narrowed to extracting CTF LGI 135/35 would there be a way to then reasonably address the issue?

However, and again, my original post ended with "What can resonably be expected" with one response so far that attempted to address bottom line.

Is Epic willing to release position?

You are either going to contribute or critisize.

What's it going to be?

I am willing to pony up $5K-$10K and a 1/4 man year (500 hours) of my time with a net value of $72,500 if others are willing to step up. I will expect a share in the intellectual property rights and any potential proceeds.

 

[UBL]

adding on to edhe's point. If they really want to go through all the hassle just to get slightly better stats and ruin others peoples fun they need to take a good look at there own lives.
On the witnessing cheating front. I have had 2 definent experiences of it, first one was on an iCTF server running Colossus. Someone had a speedhack and could cross the level in less than 10 seconds. (very fast if you remember the size of collosus)
Other time I watched my brother procede to play an aimbot on a 1on1 IG server.

Havent seen anything more recently though

you havent seen anything ecause the servers are virtually empty

 

[UBL]

Maybe not, but does that excuse an attitude of utter complacency? Not a chance in hell.

Yes, the game should be secure, but that doesn't mean for a second that players don't have a responsibility to assist when they can.

Cheat protection relies on the community as much as the community relies on cheat protection. Get used to that fact and start helping anyone and everyone who wants to stop cheats, wether they're Epic or in the community.

I paid $75 dollars for my LE copy with editor. I am the cutomer not the vendor. Since we are all so close knit in here why dont you come paint my picket fence and pay me to do it....man if I could capture the Tom Sawyer aproach for Defense contracting I would be in tall cotton.It is Epics responsibility not ours.

 

[Selerox]

Sorry, I switched off when you said "LGI 135/35"...

What can we reasonably expect? No fecking idea, ask Epic. As for what looks to be you begging for a job, trying mailing that to Epic with a resume. Might be a start...

 

[thatcher]

Maybe not, but does that excuse an attitude of utter complacency? Not a chance in hell.

Yes, the game should be secure, but that doesn't mean for a second that players don't have a responsibility to assist when they can.

Cheat protection relies on the community as much as the community relies on cheat protection. Get used to that fact and start helping anyone and everyone who wants to stop cheats, wether they're Epic or in the community.

Your sentiment is great - but I'm not sure how practical it is. To a large extent, only one individual (Wormbo) has had any real impact on the entire UT community. The rest of us can mostly only hope to influence our own clan server - maybe the odd public server.

With the greatest respect for your 4000+ posts in this forum, whatever standing you have here and the achievements of this website, I think you would agree that your own influence hasn't reached the entire community either. But tell me what you have in mind that individual gamers can realistically do, and I'm with you 110%.

I'm not understanding who you think is being complacent. I would have thought the people fitting the definition of complacency are those raking in the cash whilst their customers are frustrated by the cheaters who exploit their code. It seems that you have it the other way around, somehow.



Also want to respond to The_Head. I had missed your initial welcome to this forum. Thank you very much.

I hope my point-of-view (which seems to be the opposite of many here) is taken with my intention to have a voice during reasoned and respectful discussion.

 

[thatcher]

[I need to type quicker or shorter. I miss my opportunity to stay in the flow of the thread when I take too much time on a post... Sorry, all.]

 

[UBL]

What can we reasonably expect? No fecking idea, ask Epic. As for what looks to be you begging for a job, trying mailing that to Epic with a resume. Might be a start...

I was asked what have I done to contribute, I document partof it, and continue to offer up and I get this response. I am a CEO of a defense contractor in the Beltway doofuss. That's right: bangers, boomers, fast attacks, and the very real WMD programs I have been involved.

This game gives me an out when the rest of the world is going nuts.

 

[Discord]

I was asked what have I done to contribute, I document partof it, and continue to offer up and I get this response. I am a CEO of a defense contractor in the Beltway doofuss. That's right: bangers, boomers, fast attacks, and the very real WMD programs I have been involved.

This game is a cherished out for me when the rest of the world is going nuts.

Heh... UBL, a true original.


Well anyway, I think a significant part of your problem is competitive instagib... and I certainly don't mean that as a slam. Rather, insta (being all hitscan) is something of a cheater's paradise, and since it's competitive there's A. more incentive to cheat and B. greater consequence to cheating.

By way of comparison, your average ONS pubber doesn't lose any setup time if a cheater turns up, stands to lose nothing from match to match, and doesn't deal exclusively in hitscan weapons.

And, after all, the average ONS pubber is at the end of the day the Lowest Common Denominator. There are so many "interest groups" within UT these days that the best Epic can hope for is to please the big ones and maintain their revenue.

Hence, Epic is unlikely to go out of its way to address the higher- maintenance concerns of the (smaller) competitive insta scene. It is, as they say, nothing personal... just business. And that, I think, is bottom line what we can reasonably expect.

Pubbers (of which I am one) will tell you that cheating isn't a big deal in UT, and from their perspective that's true. Cheats of any real consequence on the pubs are rare, and if you do see one... so what? It's just a pub.

For the competitive crowd I see that it's different. You yourself have seen that even trusted players get the urge to cheat... but then again you've only seen that because you've also seen them get caught. So things can't be 100% bad.

As you should know from your line of work, for every measure there is ultimately a countermeasure. That's how arms races happen, and that's how cheat vs anti- cheat happens in online gaming. That battle is never going to be won, by either side, neither is it going to go away. As one of the "good guys" the only thing you can do is make life as hard for cheaters as you possibly can (or at least as you possibly have the time for ).

To sum up: as a minority demographic, competitive insta is never going to get the full attention of Epic. 2k3 was the best chance it had, and it'll probably never be that good again. Furthermore, the endgame against cheaters is an outright impossibility.

So what can we reasonably expect? Simply that dishonesty has always and will always be with us, and even quitting the game won't insulate you from that problem. The things you value in life are always going to be something of a job... try not to let it get you down.

If, on the other hand, you think you've got the magic bullet, well... the range is clear, you may commence firing. Or not. Entirely up to you.

 

[ReTox]

Maybe not, but does that excuse an attitude of utter complacency? Not a chance in hell.

Yes, the game should be secure, but that doesn't mean for a second that players don't have a responsibility to assist when they can.

Cheat protection relies on the community as much as the community relies on cheat protection. Get used to that fact and start helping anyone and everyone who wants to stop cheats, wether they're Epic or in the community.

I've help run a few popular servers, maintained the security and dealt with leagues and ladders and other admins, is that really complacency? I'm in here now trying to get something done with UT so it will be an even better game.

I never said we don't have the obligation to provide a secure enviro for our players, thats what I do with Anti-Tcc! My point is that if the features were there to begin with then the owness of security would not be 100% on our shoulders like it is now. And getting used to that fact IS the problem. We should not have to have a "well thats just the way it is" mentality. Least I don't think so. I've been writing code since I was 9 (Apple IIc) and if its one thing I have learned is that if you want the feature you can write the feature and Epic has talented people so whats the problem? Maybe they just aren't as smart as Wormbo!

I respect your opinion and point of view Selerox, but I think we see two different ways of solving the problem, I'd prefer to set the game up and play instead of having to constantly update security, post info about botters, subscribe to 1x10^18 forums so everyone will know about a cheater that may or may not ever play in my server again (with warez'd keys etc).

I think there should be more done by Epic about security.