Give him a break. I could have also said that UT2k4 was a failure in my eyes because I didn't like almost anything of it.
Why the low UT3 adoption?
- Thread starter TehLlama
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That's true, you could say that. I also don't like the overall graphical appearance of UT2003/4, to me, it looks like a Serious Sam ripoff & I'm sure there's many other things we'd agree on, as far as what we don't like about UT2003/4.
But when you look at this thread title, it is a legit question deserving a legit answer regarding UT3. I certainly didn't pay 100.00 US dollars for 2 copies of UT3 to not like it. I love the core elements of the game & the graphics, but the finishing touches aren't there, even with 2.0 -- 2.1, contrary to what Brizz is saying. The netcoding still needs fixed, for one.
Here's another example posted here:
http://utforums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?p=26807030#post26807030
Overall, when you look at this thread title "Why the low UT3 adoption?", for many, myself included, the real tragedy is it could have been just the opposite, if the game had been developed for the PC platform only, which probably would've cost less for them to develop, and we wouldn't even be having this discussion, now.
If people are happy with UT3 in its current state, that's OK, but I'm not going to pretend that I'm happy with it, when I'm not.
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Dark Pulse has written a pretty fair summarization of the reasons why UT3 didn't work at launch which I really don't feel like spending the time to follow up.
I was going to try just tearing your PM apart when I realized that there is one level at which your explanation of why UT3 wasn't great AT LAUNCH is reasonable, however you do yourself a disservice by adding all the crap about "consolization" in there. UT3 is not and has not ever been "consolized" on the PC. I really don't see what the draw is for people to use that word in a context where a PC game takes influence from a console game. You diminish your point by bringing it up so many times.
Let me ask you this. If UT3 were released exactly the same way without many bugs, with fully working server browser and custom content and more settings in the options menu, would you still say it was "consolized"? The things you are talking about being simplified don't have to have any connection to the console versions at all, the game was released in a sub par state. Things were incomplete and missing. But that doesn't make it "consolized". In fact, people at Epic have admitted that they just underestimated the value of having a great UI.
Your WHOLE MESSAGE is about UT3 being consolized for this reason or another reason. I can't really even attempt to break your message apart because it would simply be restating the same thing: UT3 is not consolized.
@brdempsey: I'm not suggesting that you should ignore the fact that you don't like the game. But what's the point of convincing people to agree with you by sending them lengthy PMs?
UT3 has low adoption because the UT2004 players left, and the others that have the gameplay they like, prefer to keep complaining about everything else that is different from UT, including consolizishilified UI. And then go play games like TF2 that are more cartoonish than UT2004
Then I really suspect that some people can't tell the difference between being an UT fan and a PC gamer. What threatens UT are other games or Epic competitors like Valve, not the PS3.
Then I really suspect that some people can't tell the difference between being an UT fan and a PC gamer. What threatens UT are other games or Epic competitors like Valve, not the PS3.
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I would've thought that being a PC gamer was pretty much a requirement to be an UT fan. Many would blame consoles for the mess that UT3 is in now. If they hadn't had to put time into developing versions for the PS3 and Xbox 360 (which from what I've heard failed) then UT3 might've not have been the flawed product that it became. Hell there might've even been a release for the Mac and Linux platforms if Epic didn't try to chase the console market.
Okay, some things like the UI are not as bad as they were at release but we didn't see these improvments till 12-18 months after release. Too little too late. People had moved on to other games.
Okay, some things like the UI are not as bad as they were at release but we didn't see these improvments till 12-18 months after release. Too little too late. People had moved on to other games.
Did you try Onslaught and Invasion-RPG? I'm part of the crowd that thinks UT99 is far better for DM, CTF, and Domination, but I really do love the UT 2004 Onslaught and Invasion Monster Mash RPG games and I think that Assault is better in UT 2004. It might all depend on what game type you play.
I do think that the User Interface is consolized or at least clunky and slow. It does seem like it was designed so that people with a gamepad could navigate it as opposed to having something more akin to UT99's windows or UT2004's detailed menus. In the game play area, they left out weapon throw, possibly because people on consoles couldn't bind that. Also, they completely left out voice communication keybinds; it's something very obvious that they did not add to the game, perhaps because people with a gamepad would never be able to hit individual keys to issue a taunt or a team command. The Mapvote menu also leaves a lot to be desired and pales in comparison to the 2004 mapvote menu. (Even if that is a custom mod, there's no reason they shouldn't have been able to produce one just as good or better.) It's not the game play (which has its own issues). Rather, it's the stuff that surrounds it.
I can see your point about the server browser; it's not that bad but could use some more options. Upon release it was god-awful but yeah, we can chalk that up to its being unfinished. However, the lack of the ability to add Favorites, even as an unfinished and broken option at release, reeked of an attempt to simplify the browser and hence consolization IMHO.
Say what you want, I believe that the PC version of the game is, at root, a console port. To me it feels like it was designed primarily for consoles and then ported over to the PC or at least designed with consoles in mind.
Simply go back to the part where I said that the point where I agree with him was him saying that folks should try out ALL the UT series games. I never said anything about consoles, other than I disagree with the decision to spread UT3 across multiple platforms, as the PC version did suffer as result. Nobody can deny that.
Now as far as sending PM's, ( which I haven't done ) consider for a moment, that he could have omitted the consolisation parts, but still, if he were to tell them a number of bells & whistles that were in UT & UT2004 aren't going to found in UT3, & that they should try all the UT series games, he's being honest & sincere. And do consider that they are all out there for sale all over the web.
So, if anybody would object to me telling someone that they should try out all the UT series games, I have to suspect it's because those objecting are fearful that when someone does try out all the UT series games, they might prefer one iteration of it over the version which the objecting individual prefers. Make sense?
Personally, I don't worry about which version that the next guy prefers. People are going to prefer one iteration of UT over another iteration for whatever reason.
As for me, as far as UT3 goes, it's just disappointing where it wound up as opposed to what could have been & I know I'm not alone. The online numbers don't lie. Every time I see UnrealGrrl post here & see her game tracker showing very little activity on her server that she's paying for, I can't help but cringe. You might suggest I go play there, but there's nobody there.
You're free to believe that, despite it being wrong.
The fact of the matter is that the PC version is not identical to the console versions in every way, and the console versions themselves differ in several ways.You could say that certain things (or omissions) in the retail game were influenced by the PS3 (saying the 360 would be a MASSIVE stretch), but what I would say is that those influences were necessary to make modding on the PS3 possible. While I personally disagree with the attempt to take UT3 onto consoles (Unreal Championship was a much better series for that), I can't blame them or say anything negative about the fact that they wanted to support modding on the PS3.
I think there are other ways they could have accomplished it and ended out better, but, like I said, they've admitted they undervalued the importance of the UI.
But still, I think it's incorrect to say that console influences are bad. There are lots of cross-platform games. If they are made properly on PC, I'm 100% sure you wouldn't complain about them being consolified. Like, I never hear people say that Mass Effect is a gimpy, consolified PC port despite it's UI being nearly identical to the one on the 360.
To me, things like that just prove that the highly subjectively defined word "consolified" is mostly imaginary and describes anything that has a console release and issues that piss people off.
That's the thing, though. Was it "as a result" of being multi-platform? Or was it just what happened? I tend to think the latter, as plenty of other companies have made perfectly fine PC versions of multi-platform games.
I understand what you're saying, and it's kind of off my point. For me it's about intentions, and having references to the game being "consolified" or a "console port" both diminishes his point (it would take about one paragraph to tell someone that they should try all the games in the series) and makes his intentions unclear. His whole message comes off as "Don't play this crappy console game, go play the real UT games". That's my problem.
You're free to play or not play as you see fit, but I can't disagree with the fact that the game could have been much better at launch. Even in 1.3 state it would have been reasonable for release. And, yes, it is disappointing. I don't play the game a ton despite that I find it fun. It's just been too long, I've got so many games and projects I'm working on that I hardly have time to spend playing it. But I do try to be realistic about what its actual problems were, and I think "console involvement" is probably one of the least of UT3's problems (though I'm sure it had SOME effect).
Onslaught still uses UT2k4's general movements and gameplay that I despise, so no. I prefer Warfare. I don't know about Invasion-RPG (retail Invasion or another thing?).
I don't like Assault in both games.
I tried and tried but UT2k4 is not for me, I find it only worth for some mods. UT1 got old for me and I have it for the SP/U1 stuff and the latest CMP packs. Mostly sticking with UT3's HOLP maps, those give me the biggest entertainment value.
Meh UT2004 invasion RPG mods are pretty meh on the servers, filled with custom monsters and stuff, I prefer normal invasion with stock mutators over that.
The UT3 RPG mod is better in combination with the invasion there, the UT2004 version is just more boring to me.
The UT3 RPG mod is better in combination with the invasion there, the UT2004 version is just more boring to me.
Either way, whether it was one or the other, in the case of UT3, the PC version needed much more development time. I don't believe Epic really wanted to release the PC version when they did. They had to have known it wasn't ready for prime time & the timing wasn't right. But obligations to Midway ( and yes, they deserve to get a few fingers pointed at them ) dictated otherwise.
I had hoped, with Midway out of the picture, we'd see something similar to UT2003 -->UT2004, but they dropped the bombshell about UT being put on the shelf. So, we aren't likely to see that happen, even though UT3 does deserve it & needs it badly.
Let's flip the coin over. What's one of UT3's best features that seemingly is hardly ever discusses as far recruiting new players to UT3? No, it's not Akasha's nice tush or any of the other female characters with the well rounded knockers. What's the best place for new players to start in UT3? I believe you've guessed it -- Campaign Co-op. That's really where new players should start. It hasn't been exploited enough -- in other words that's the carrot that should be dangled out there. Too often, new players get online with seasoned players & get their head handed to them & where do they go from there? Usually, it's exit stage left.
I know that playing with/against bots doesn't make anyone a leet online player, but at least if new players spend some time playing Campaign Co-op, they at least have a better chance to have some fun with the game & at least get better familiarization with the game. A single player Tournament ladder, in addition to Campaign Co-op, certainly wouldn't hurt, either.
Maybe it wasn't console involvement, but unfortunately the PC version of UT3 was way too similar to the console versions, instead of really standing out as a separate entity. That's where the problem regarding "consolitis" is coming from. The PC version of UT3 doesn't really stand head & shoulders above its console counterparts -- although I'm sure that we all agree that it should. For a vast majority, UT is a PC game first & foremost, regardless of where Epic's focus may be. That's not likely to ever change.
I never had problem with the UT3 UI, it was the lack of options the bothered me & that Gamespy login -- got to go. It's proved to be more of a stumbling block than an asset. Don't know what they were thinking there. This isn't BF2 with an online ranking system & weapon unlock system.
EA spends 3x more on marketing than they do producing the title. link to gamersdailynews
What was UT3's marketing budget, like $100?
What was UT3's marketing budget, like $100?
What Source games have you been playing? lol source can't even decide where players are, let alone projectiles. ...now then when the player IS the projectile, Source just kind of says "eh I'll render that when I get around to it, I'm gonna go make a cup of coffee in the meantime.."
UT3 died because it came out at a bad time, backed up a truckload of "failed first Impressions" and dumped all over itself.
Not to mention the whole "Let's take the game that really brought user made content to the masses, and make that content, as impossible to implement as possible!"
Titan Pack was an incredible addition to help repair Epic's reputation, and I'm glad they cared enough to deliver, but I just couldn't find anyone online to play against after the first few days.
not to mention the graphics,.. I'm maybe in a small minority, but for as pretty as it looks, blurry, over-bloomed "ooooh, aahhh" doesn't make for a good fast paced shooter.
The version that I play is basically a huge, non-competitive shooting gallery where the targets shoot back at you. Where I play it, there are 16 waves of progressively tougher and more dangerous monsters with boss monsters on the 16th wave. (Killing them all earns an experience points bonus for everyone.) It's called Invasion Monster Mash RPG. The RPG aspect is that when you gain a level, you can do things such as increase the damage your player does, increase health, and purchase abilities such as vampirism (gain health when you hit something), etc. There a many stats that can be improved and abilities that can be purchased, and you can also get magic weapons. It's a lot of fun and rather addictive though it's brutal for new, low-level players. I play it at these servers:
http://www.clandw.org
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Pretty sure Titan Pack was that, even though it didn't add quite as much content (just almost as much).
I agree, but due to Gamespy, organizing and executing this is a HUGE PITA. I have my network set up with the right ports and things open to allow this, but most people won't. And games released at the same time as UT3 didn't have this "needing certain ports open" problem to get a local co-op game going (particularly L4D).
If Epic had made this work better, I 100% agree with you that it could have been a great way to introduce newcomers to the game. It, honestly, SHOULD have been used for that. Why else include it?
The problem is, I think UT3 PC DOES stand head and shoulders above the console versions, which is surely why those versions are also having problems.
Community Bonus Pack vol 4 and Jailbreak has been released. I didn't expect this without a single word before it happened.
All right, how much impact will this have at the moment? If you tell all your friends about it?
Shadow Complex proved to be an instant hit. Clearly Epic still can perform great deeds. How about a side scroll mod for UT3?
Apparently everyone has gone nuts today, even a new version of Prometheus has been released.
All right, how much impact will this have at the moment? If you tell all your friends about it?
Shadow Complex proved to be an instant hit. Clearly Epic still can perform great deeds. How about a side scroll mod for UT3?
Apparently everyone has gone nuts today, even a new version of Prometheus has been released.
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Yea, right, look at the media coverage. Wait a minute, what media coverage?
Looks like the HOLP 3 crew didn't make it, as if they where going to win anything, they just made the game playable.
I think I need to download that Xeno model again. There are quite a few good models out there.
Looks like the HOLP 3 crew didn't make it, as if they where going to win anything, they just made the game playable.
I think I need to download that Xeno model again. There are quite a few good models out there.