True Scale 29

[Beppo]

Ok guys and gals...
sorry that I haven't read each and every single word here but I guess you can understand that I skipped some sentences.

@SaraP, thanks for jumping in here, really appreciated!

To all... I guess I made my point clear and most of you interpreted my other posts correctly. Any kind of addition is welcome so that the whole community can enjoy new additions made to the game but changing ballistics and other things that affect the balanced game we developed and needed a year to 'only' balance out is nothing I can support. You change the general gameplay and new folks that then grab such a mutator automatically from a server they play on will think that INF 2.9 was designed this way. And that false impression is the key thing here that annoys me.
I can only speak for myself but I guess many team members do not want that anyone out there can take the work of someone else as our work - especially if it changes base elements of the game.
INF 2.9 is not even one month released... do I really have to say more?

Anyway, I cannot stop you from releasing such things but why don't you go a slightly different route... make your own gametype. Let this gametype add your specific mutators directly or implement them fully. This way all out there can play 2.9 as it was designed and your game mode too if they want to try out something different. We added the "Other INF Games" browser tab for such things - even with a new RA version in mind if yurch plans to release one. That way you would be able to test out the acceptance of your new stuff on a seperate server without 'disturbing' the others or affecting the first impressions of new players out there at all.

If you need help on implementing your stuff as a new game mode... just call. If you plan on going further and stay on the "one big mutator changing basic rules" route then I bet that not many here will support you further, me included.

cheers,

Beppo

 

[MunkE]

i want more muties, plz.

 

[jaymian]

My only real complaint is that it is too early. I really can't say no to mutators, because that is why I am still here. If it wasn't for RA, I doubt I would have stuck it out for 2.9. I also think that a mutator was needed for INF 2.86. So I see it as a whole new thing when a gameplay mutator comes out for 2.9. I can see a lot of people's points here. I agree that you should be able to make mutators, but I also agree that a mutator could make INF look "bad". I also don't think this mutator is comparable to Report Direction and UT Compass. Those help with team communication, which after playing lately, I think all servers could use. There's still a lot of "Army of One" attitudes on the servers, even ones with Ex-RA folks. So what is the best thing to do? I'd let the dust settle after like 6 months or so. By then people will have a better feel for what they like/dislike, and what they feel is needed.

As for a new gametype, you could work on DOM. Haha, I know. But I think if DOM was modified to be like conquest for Battlefield 1942, it would be really fun. If I redo any of my maps for EAS, I'm hoping to make them like the conquest gametype. I just hope EAS allows it.

I guess I just think that stand alone, 2.9 is nearly perfect. But perfection is in the eye of the beholder. So I cross my fingers and hope the community can stick together no matter what happens.

 

[FieldMedic]

Anyway, I cannot stop you from releasing such things but why don't you go a slightly different route... make your own gametype. Let this gametype add your specific mutators directly or implement them fully.

Interesting suggestion in my opinion.
I hope "gameplay" muties coders will try to do full gametypes instead of muties , as from what i can imagine from this point, it should appease the fear of some people there ...
Until the next "threat"

But i have to add , for people that are discovering INF and that will read this thread, that when playing online you will not see all those rants , fears or worries etc ...
It is just a forum discussion that greatly exaggerate what is going on , as all forum discussions does.

 

[SaraP]

To the best of my understanding, that thread in which Beppo replied with those comments was made at a time when 2.9 was very newly released, and had i spent 2+ years coding and recoding, bug squashing etc, i would have been slightly ired by the manner in which the persons in that thread were posting as well, but like i have stated before, most people support thier views based soley on PARTS of a WHOLE to bolster thier arguements. Those comments you highlighted in particular, are totally out of context NOW, read the dates of the original posts, and then kindly read the dates on these posts.

*rolls eyes*

If I was digging up comments Beppo made months ago, you might have a point. Those posts, however, are just seven days old. Not seven years, not seven months, or even seven weeks.

Furthermore, Beppo has JUST posted here clarifying that, yes, he did mean that Sentry has no problems with mutators that extend Infiltration, but does not want to have mutators which simply edit Infiltration settings. Or is that also out of context and obsolete?

Anyone is entitled to thier opinions, thats a given, the point we are trying to make that attempting to bash people for thier efforts, is juvenile, triting poetic and boldfacedly disguising a direct insult of ones intelligence, is juvenile.

Spending more time posting on these forums and less time playing is entirely retarded, and losing ones cool to the point of not posting a rational arguement and resorting to kindergarten type jibes at thier motives {which is all supposition since i doubt youve ever talked at great length with Toad in person, or otherwise} is in extremis the type of thing you have accused Toad of committing.

It is the height of arrogance to ignore the team’s expressly stated wishes regarding their own mod. Toad’s intentions may have been good, but his actions were not. A close parallel would be President George W. Bush – I doubt he sits in the White House with his advisors plotting to make America an arrogant globo-cop, but the actions his administration takes give that impression nonetheless.

 

[SaraP]

Upon some thought, the situation here is rather similar to the direction the Star Trek franchise has been taking under Rick Berman and Brandon Bragga. It’s not that they’re evil monsters who are secretly conspiring to destroy Trek; they honestly believe that the way they’re doing the show is better than the way it used to be. It’s not even a particularly crappy TV show; it’s just that it’s not what Gene Roddenberry wanted, and therefore it’s not really Star Trek.

Beppo and the rest of the team have worked their butts off putting Infiltration together, and I think it’s perfectly reasonable for them to be upset by this. Instead of thanking them for an awesome game and playing it the way it was meant to be played, people whine about not liking this or that and try to change it. Whether or not it's meant that way, doing so is effectively taking Infiltration and throwing it back in the team’s face saying it’s not good enough.

That’s why a mutator that extends the game by adding new features or weapons is okay but a mutator that only second-guesses the team’s intentional design decisions by changing internal settings is not -- it’s the difference between building upon what the team made and tearing down what the team made to erect your own.

 

[Bushwack]

ok, if whining about 'thier' game is your arguement, find somewhere in any of these threads, where Toad, I, or 5eleven and Nofate, have ever whined about Infiltration 2.9. There wont be any to find.

Beppo, i can understand your feelings regarding any 'improvement' mutators, 2.9 is your baby, i've even stated that i understood that, i do however, defend the motives Toad has behind his release of TS2.9, its not out of malicious intent at all, and someone supposing it was is over stepping thier bounds of judgement, this is what me and my friends have been trying to get across here.

Look around people, there are thread after thread of new people asking legitimate questions, even if some of the things they ask are inappropriate concerning Infiltration type gameplay, ie weapons and the like, look at the responses from the so called "forum standards comittee members", they are more often than not purely offensive along the lines of "F*UCK off and go back to CS kiddies" type responses, hostility reigns supreme here at Infiltration Forums, and your not welcome.

Just because you think you know something better than someone else, does in no way give you the right nor power to make thier inquiry seem like the biggest single offensive thing you have ever read in text. The only stupid question is one not asked and left unanswered, yet still the majority of people on here are tolerated, even endeared whenthey answer in the standard 'RTFMn00b" manner. terms like moron, retard and the like referring to legitimate and possibly very young and naive posters makes one feel ever so welcomed into a new game doesnt it?

Here lies your community divide, also a reason many old timers and greatest fans of INF rarely post here, most good people dont even bother to read here anymore. I'm far from looking for arguements, im too old and too tired to try to instill humility and tact into a much younger generation of individuals with the internet allowing for free reign in thier faceless and totally inconsequential insulting of thier fellow man.

I'll forever play Infiltration, its the game for me, whatever incarnation it is in, im loyal to what the team has in its graciousness, sacrificed thier free time and energies, have given us. What you all have done is amazing.

I will however no longer allow myself to come here, fearing my legitimate questions will be picked apart, nor my first hand knowledge second guessed, my intelligence and honesty challenged. This already small community, will continue to get smaller, and drive away any new blood with the attitudes expressed freely and often encouraged herein. I'll see you all on the servers, but never again in here.

Bw out!

 

[5eleven]

SaraP, I think maybe you are missing the point. NOBODY. I say again, NOBODY in any of these threads has said, intimated, griped, bitched, complained, or otherwise indicated that SentryStudios did not do a stellar, fantastic, hell even otherworldly job with 2.9! No one, well, at least not in here, has been bitching about really, anything to do with the game. I have never, ever ONCE bashed or complained about one thing. I accept the game for what it is and am damned thankful to have it. I even defended the team when people were upset about not getting their CD one minute before someone else.

It's nothing like that at all. No one here is trying to change Infiltration. If you want to get upset at people who want to make another mod, go to one of the other threads, seems every day someone is posting a thread complaining about some feature, or this or that, or can't we have a mod where I can actually FLY the chopper out of the map, or snipers, or the list goes on. You are entitled to your opinion, but I fail to see how Toad's mod of the mod somehow drastically changes what the SS team envisioned.

Also, when you addressed Bushwack's last post and put it up as a quotation, Beppo had not yet posted in the forums, so that was sort of unfair to make it appear as though he contradicted what Beppo said in his last post.

And yes, it is perfectly reasonable for Sentry Studios' Team to be upset about mods. Totally. Agreed. But I also did not see any of them ripping someone like you did for an idea. I did see you doing it. And the last I checked, I didn't see your name on the SS development team roster.

Which leads me to Beppo. With all due respect, I was sort of confused after going back and reading your posts in the "Yurch's antics" thread, and then to see what you posted here. I am also, frankly, a little disappointed that you supported SaraP, when I saw her doing something that I've never really (except once when you were pissed) seen you do. Lash out and bash someone for an idea.

I understand what you are saying Beppo, and you have every right to request that muties that don't change the game as it was envisioned by the team not be produced. Fair enough. But I guess even when you lashed out once before on the forums, it was basically because of bitching and whining about the when is it coming out issues, and the "this is bull" type comments. I fully support you doing that, and I understand where you were coming from. I guess what I don't understand, or have trouble with, is the fact that the people who are talking about this mutator are not those that bitch about Infiltration, those that were content to wait until it's release, actually play on a relatively frequent basis, and absolutely LOVE the product. Just seems a bit misdirected is all, and I think it's unfair.

In addition to that, (without attempting too much to paraphrase Yurch), there will always be people that like something better this way or that, and a lot of those options are serverside, so I really don't see it becoming an issue, but it will always be a "divided" community one way or another. I guess with a RaV2, RealAim69, TrueVersion, The Way I think Inf Should Be, or whatever other version someone wants to try and others want to play, it is NOT repackaging Infiltration as 2.9, and pushing that product to other players, be it n00bs like me, or salty old vets, like, well, Yurch To be honest, I tried 2.86 and I did not like it. If it had not been for Rav2, I would have NOT stuck around for 2.9. But I didn't bitch about 2.86, I played vanilla a few times here and there, it just wasn't for me.

Please, please, tell me where I'm wrong. I'm trying to grasp what you are saying and I'm really trying to listen to both sides of this, but I don't get it.

And while I'm on my soapbox, and participating in the thing I hate the most, I guess what really honks me off is some of the click-ish elitism that exists around here. I haven't been playing long, and I just started jumping right into the forums. I'm not here to impress anyone, I'm just here to make some friends and have some fun playing a game. But I have gotten to know a few of the guys that did play rav2, or ra286, and now 2.9. Unfortunately, most of them seem to be either on the "outside", bashed for whatever they post, or just frankly disliked. To me, they've been great. They've helped me a lot, playing Inf and with other computer issues. And actually, they are some really decent people. I just get a little honked off with all the bashing, including the bashing that some have done to the Inf Team. Oh well, it's getting late, and I just got done playing a long stretch on one of the Euro servers. And that damned Midwinter He was kickin my a$$!

I hope to see a response, and for people to just relax. Good gawd.

BTW, Happy RamaHannuKwanza!

EDIT** You know, I just thought of something else, regarding "mutators driving people away" and "split community". Take myself for example: I played "vanilla" 2.86. As I said before, I didn't like it that much. I played some rav2 games and added some other mutators, and I was hooked........but I didn't see a shortage of regular infiltration servers. People complained that no one was online, or no one played regular infiltration. So? I had a blast playing rav2 and ra286 with a whole bunch of other people, quite frequently. We liked it, enjoyed it and had a good time. THAT was infiltration to me. So let me get this straight, rav2 "split" the community. Hmmmmmm, so I guess it would be better for people that didn't like playing regular infiltration to just......quit playing. THAT's what I call a split. The same number of people that WERE playing Infiltration using a mutator, just quit playing altogether. How does telling me that only one way of play or only a certain mutator, or no mutators or whatever make me enjoy a game? THAT is an elitist attitude. Hey, I don't care much for some of the 2.9 servers......I don't like either the mutators that they run or the mutators that they don't run. It's a personal preference. So guess what? I DON'T PLAY ON THOSE SERVERS. Doesn't mean I don't like Infiltration. Doesn't mean anything, other than it's my CHOICE, and I don't play there. Whoopdeedoo. Am I "dividing the community"? Sort of like a mutie that Toad might come up with, or like any other damned mutator out there. If you do not like it.........um, do not play it. But I guess don't talk about a "divide" because it isn't a division. Division is telling someone that what they like is stupid, or accept this the way it is, or that they can't change something the way they like it. I love Infiltration, I love 2.9, I love many many mutators, and I like my coffee black. Maybe you don't. Who cares?

 

[SaraP]

Also, when you addressed Bushwack's last post and put it up as a quotation, Beppo had not yet posted in the forums, so that was sort of unfair to make it appear as though he contradicted what Beppo said in his last post.

He claimed that comments that were SEVEN DAYS OLD were outdated and obsolete, which is a ludicrous argument.

And yes, it is perfectly reasonable for Sentry Studios' Team to be upset about mods. Totally. Agreed. But I also did not see any of them ripping someone like you did for an idea. I did see you doing it. And the last I checked, I didn't see your name on the SS development team roster.

So I'm not allowed to resent pissing on the game if I didn't help make it? Freedom of speech goes in two directions, you know, not just the way you want it to.

I am also, frankly, a little disappointed that you supported SaraP, when I saw her doing something that I've never really (except once when you were pissed) seen you do. Lash out and bash someone for an idea.

I understand what you are saying Beppo, and you have every right to request that muties that don't change the game as it was envisioned by the team not be produced. Fair enough. But I guess even when you lashed out once before on the forums, it was basically because of bitching and whining about the when is it coming out issues, and the "this is bull" type comments. I fully support you doing that, and I understand where you were coming from.

He agreed with me because I was backing the position he had expressed earlier, although admittedly in more aggressively antagonistic terms.

I guess what I don't understand, or have trouble with, is the fact that the people who are talking about this mutator are not those that bitch about Infiltration, those that were content to wait until it's release, actually play on a relatively frequent basis, and absolutely LOVE the product. Just seems a bit misdirected is all, and I think it's unfair.

You think I'm a newbie? Heh, I've been playing Inf since 2.85 -- just mostly offline, since I didn't have DSL until recently.

 

[DEFkon]

I think i'm gonna have to go with Beppo on this one. I think implimenting them as gametypes is going to make online gaming much easier because everything can be sorted out. That's not to say "don't work on your mutator", just do it in another way that doesn't complicate things.

 

[5eleven]

First off, where did I give the impression that I thought you were a n00b? I never said that, and it didn't enter my mind in the equation one way or another.

Secondly, what I was disappointed in WAS the fact that he supported your argument when PUT in "aggressively antagonistic terms". You can support whomever you wish.

Third, when did I say anything about Freedom of Speech? You must have me confused with NoFate's post, I think his referred to Freedom of Speech. All I am saying is that I am a little more inclined to take criticism or comments from the person that created the product. That's all. I really don't know where you are getting the Freedom of Speech thing. Baffled.

Fourth, what I was referring to as unfair about your post to Bush was this:

Furthermore, Beppo has JUST posted here clarifying that, yes, he did mean that Sentry has no problems with mutators that extend Infiltration, but does not want to have mutators which simply edit Infiltration settings. Or is that also out of context and obsolete?

I wasn't attacking your opinion as to what you thought or didn't think was relevant regarding the "antics" thread, what I was referring to was the fact that you posted the above, AFTER Beppo posted in the thread, who had posted AFTER Bushwack. You then set out, unfairly in my view, to try to make Bush look stoopid when he hadn't even had an opportunity to read Beppo's post when his was posted. **Takes deep breath** Hope that's clear enough.

This isn't a personal attack, so don't take it so personal.......... I happen to disagree with your comments made under the umbrella of your "Freedom of Speech". Therefore, I equally express my "Freedom of Speech" with you. Simply put, you can disagree with me if you want, but you have your opinion, I have mine.

**EDIT, and wait a minute...........did you even read everything that has been posted? NO ONE IS PISSING ON INFILTRATION OR SENTRY STUDIOS! NO ONE HERE IS BASHING INFILTRATION OR 2.9. Please stop making it APPEAR as though there is some hatred of Infiltration or that we are a bunch of people bitching, pissing and moaning, or even think that 2.9 is bad or should be radically different.

 

[SaraP]

**EDIT, and wait a minute...........did you even read everything that has been posted? NO ONE IS PISSING ON INFILTRATION OR SENTRY STUDIOS! NO ONE HERE IS BASHING INFILTRATION OR 2.9. Please stop making it APPEAR as though there is some hatred of Infiltration or that we are a bunch of people bitching, pissing and moaning, or even think that 2.9 is bad or should be radically different.

You apparently haven't read my posts.

I am perfectly aware that Toad and his supporters mean well, in terms of intending to improve Infiltration rather than moan and whine about it. However, creating a mutator like TrueSight right after Beppo told people not to make mutators that only second-guess the team's design decisions is a slap in the face to the team whether or not they mean it as one.

Or, to use Beppo's own metaphor, it's pissing in the team's Froot Loops.

 

[5eleven]

SaraP, I understand your opinion, I really do. I think where we differ is that I do NOT see a mutator such as this as a slap in the face to infiltration. That's all. The only thing that I resented in your comments is the way you presented your opinion in the first place.

And yes, I did read your posts.

What I am referring to is how you present your opinion such as this:

So I'm not allowed to resent pissing on the game if I didn't help make it?

In MY opinion, presenting it this way makes it appear to some that people are not happy with Infiltration 2.9, and that is simply not the case.

That's all.

EDIT** In closing this, I sincerely hope that this is NOT the way that Sentry Studios interprets my support for a mutator such as this.

 

[[C22]-SpOOky]

I didnt even finnish reading this thread.

This SUCKS .. 2.9 has been out only a short time and already your takeing the piss

Yay lets take the hard work of others .. "TWEAK" it a bit ..a little turn of a screw here and there and hay presto you have made a new game style/type and you are well on your way to spliting the community

Congratulations

This thread and many others like it shows exactly why a LARGE part of the "PLAYING" infiltration community Dont and Wont use thease forums .

The worst thing is 2.9 aint even warmed up yet and your already pissing all over it and what the team has done . :tdown:

@Beppo
I honestly dont know why u guys bother

 

[5eleven]

Wow Spooky, for not reading the thread, you sure have a pretty strong opinion.

 

[SaraP]

I didnt even finnish reading this thread.

This SUCKS .. 2.9 has been out only a short time and already your takeing the piss

Yay lets take the hard work of others .. "TWEAK" it a bit ..a little turn of a screw here and there and hay presto you have made a new game style/type and you are well on your way to spliting the community

Congratulations

This thread and many others like it shows exactly why a LARGE part of the "PLAYING" infiltration community Dont and Wont use thease forums .

The worst thing is 2.9 aint even warmed up yet and your already pissing all over it and what the team has done . :tdown:

@Beppo
I honestly dont know why u guys bother

I wouldn’t go that far. Toad isn’t an idiot, and he isn’t a Counterstrike player with an evil conspiracy to destroy Infiltration. His actions, however, were foolish and arrogant – even if he didn’t intend them that way.

 

[5eleven]

Okay, it's official: I give. Time to just quit posting. I've tried to explain what I think about it, and listened to everyone's opinion. "Foolish and arrogant" sounds like one being scolded by a 7th grade teacher. So much for freedom of anything around here. Now you can be blamed for "dividing a community".

 

[geogob]

After reading all this, I just finished by your post Spooky. Frankly, I'm a little dissapointed by the level of maturity shown in your post (and in some others I have seen in this thread).

...Maybe you should have gone through the whole thread...

You might at least give some respect to those who, as you say, divided the community. Why you'll ask? Because they extended Infiltration's life much more than you think. Myself, I stoped playing INF for a period of about one year and a half. The only thing that made me come back was RAv2 and, later, Ra286 with DTAS. If it wasn't of those modifications, I wouldn't be playing INF anymore (perhaps even not 2.9). With those once new modifications for INF 2.86, I discovered a new INF community, much more polite, mature and respectfull then the one I knew before my long break.

From my point of view, it didn't divide any community... it created a new one. But that's my point of you. I won't blame you (or even argue with you) if you can't understand this.


This dark vision of mutators and modification is very ironic. Why do you still have Unreal Tournament installed on your computer? mmmm let me guess.. a modification maybe... perhaps one called infiltration? Mutators and modification are not created to "piss" over the game, but to prolonge it's life.

On the name "True Scale"... well Toad said about all there is to say about it. How true can a game be? How could you say INF 2.9 is more true then what Toad is doing. But it isn't even worth wasting time to argue on this, since it's only a name. If your best argument to state that Toad is doing something against the creators of INF (who are, btw, still able to express their opinions themself I think) is based on the name, maybe you should think it over. I find the name cool and it has a punch. It's a good name.

This thread and many others like it shows exactly why a LARGE part of the "PLAYING" infiltration community Dont and Wont use thease forums .

ok, now on than one, I'm doing big efforts to stay polite and respectfull. The post you just did is probably one of the least constructive and disrespectfull in this thread. Even then you have the guts to state something like this. Maybe you should stop posting yourself or refrain yourself of such comments. The community and its forum will only come out to be stronger.

Following your logic, anyway, we should all flame the Beppo and INF team for taking the hard work of other .. "TWEAK" it a bit ..a little turn of a screw here and there and hay presto you have made a new game style/type. Yes, some people worked hard to create Unreal and Unreal Tournament. Oh but wait, this doesn't make any sense does it?


============== Other topic ===============
SaraP, I'm gonna to say this once (I'v had this on my mind for a while now and if you want to reply, please don't do it here. Email me or PM me or what ever.).

We all understand you have opinions, but you must understand that other people also have opinions. We all understand you have knowledge, but you must understand that other people also have knowledge.

 

[[C22]-SpOOky]

I have a sugestion that i think Could solve most Problems the community has

This is Infiltration General Discusion Yet many poeple are not discussing Infiltration they are discussing new game types/styles
So Imo thats sorta off topic for this part of the forums But there is Nowere specific for this sort of thread to be posted

So make One

Why not add another section to the Infiltration Forums Called "Other game styles" Or summat like that, Specificly for Ra, TS, RAv3 or what ever elese comes along

Then those apossed to thease ideas cant flame the threads since they are in a section for that discusion, and also the General discusion would not be full of such bitching and disagrement.
Also New releases of RS/TS or what ever Sgould only be announced in that part of the forum then there would be no confusion for newbs who come to the forum and see a community of people argueing about what is Real and what is not

I sugest a new section for this sort of discussion .. Moderators could Move all Ra/TS related threads to that part of the forum
were those who suport this kind of thing can go and discuss it without having it attacked and those who dont like that sort of playing style can choose Not to visit that Part of the Forum

IMO This would solve alot of problems

Edit: geogob I didnt see your post untill i had posted this 1
And franky i cant be asred to reply to you now But Look at this thread and many others its clear there IS a split in the community on this forum about whats real or not real
2.9 is Still New and already people are creating New styles .
Despite repeated requests Not to do this sort of thing so early in 2.9 life
"IMO" some People want a band of little bitchs to worship them as gods and care Nothing for the Infiltration Community as a whole
Go ahead Flame me and what i think .. I dont care .
PS: Who are you ?
I dont think ive seen you playing Online since 2.9 has been out or in the Preceeding year, So im kinda at a loss as to who you even are ( No disrespect meant)

 

[geogob]

I don't even know what to anwser to that. Yes it's a good idea, but the logic of it solving any problems completely eludes me. Maybe i'm not the only one who needs a good night of sleep.