True Scale 29

[SaraP]

The name “True Scale” is incredibly arrogant and presumptuous; it’s clearly intended as a slap in the face to the Infiltration team, and calling a collection of kludged hacks like that an improvement over 2.9 is an insult to the intelligence of everyone here.

You might mean well, Toad, but you'd better lose that "better-than-thou" attitude. You're a mere ant crawling on the shoulders of giants.

 

[Bushwack]

The name “True Scale” is incredibly arrogant and presumptuous; it’s clearly intended as a slap in the face to the Infiltration team, and calling a collection of kludged hacks like that an improvement over 2.9 is an insult to the intelligence of everyone here.

As were the 'Elitist' comments you made, all based on supposition and assumation, since your so obviously of higher and greater intellect than the poor lowly Toad, we, the community of insulted intelligencia, await your attempt at coding something better.
I'm glad most decent people dont see things with such glaring CLARITY as you have so eloquently stated, but then again, what do i know, i'm one of the intelligently insulted individuals you speak for...
I'm sure Yurch, whom has since helped with the development of certain aspects of your much touted vanilla 2.9 was evilly plotting the pimpslap from hell to the faces of the likes of Beppo when he named and coded the evil cummunity killing and divider of all Real Aim Version 2, how utterly presumptuous of him to imply his mastery of all things REAL concerning ballistics and gameplay, bad Yurch, you set in the back with Toad from now on...

You might mean well, Toad, but you'd better lose that "better-than-thou" attitude. You're a mere ant crawling on the shoulders of giants.

...and people that post comments based on the total assumation that a mere name was intended to 'slap' the team members in the face is ludicrous and largely juvenile.
I will remind all you forumers that when this "community split" everyone is referring to with Rav2/vanilla Inf happened as well as the wait for the release of 2.9, and a lot of people were not playing INF at all on ANY server, people like Toad hung on, and played still, rav2/ra286/vanilla, we made INF fun again for ourselves with the inception of Ra286, and any and all attempts at releaseng that mutator were given this same reception of immaturity. All i have ever seen on behalf of the Dev team were kind words regarding ra286, and even in this thread, they are mature enough to recognise the effort gone into such a thing as writing code for a mutator.

People making statements such as the above are, in my opinion, the same type of people that would burn a book, censor a news report, introduce the word "can't" into a childs vocabulary , persecute for religious beliefs, and hang people based on the color of thier skin.
Facism has many faces and the less than receptive and helpfull or encourageing remarks from the likes of individuals "speaking on behalf of the community and SS team" certainly has its hand in the downfall of this community more than any mere mutator could accomplish.

Thank you very much for making the addition of another fine addition to my IGNORE list possible, i couldnt have done it without your most heartfelt sentiment and attempt at adult conversation. Well done! Kudos! Congratulations! Uncle Shickelgruber would be so proud.


If Toad is a mere ant crawling on the shoulders of giants You are a rashy boil that they have not yet found an ointment to ease the itching in our nether regions...badly in need of a good lancing.
BW out!

 

[5eleven]

Well, I wasn't really gonna post to this. Toad knows where I stand regarding Infiltration and any version of "real aim", etc.

I understand the varying ideas posted here, and respect everyone's opinion. As for me, I will play truescale or whatever you wanna call it offline for awhile. Hell, I don't play 2.9 well as it stands, and certainly haven't learned the maps AT ALL! So I actually don't intend to d/l or play it just yet.

Everyone had very good posts and good points, although I really don't like hearing anyone bash anyone (esp. Toad bashing). If you ask me, it's not the mutator that causes the divide in the "community", it's the pissing and moaning in the forums that create the divide. As I've said a million times, if you don't want it, don't like it, don't want to play it, DON'T! No one is forcing you to.

Having said that, Im gonna make a few comments/questions, sort of:

As I've said before, Yurch, as far as I know, had no problem with Duke and Toad's mod to the mod. Clearly, Yurch's time, effort and skill that he put into RAv2 were phenomenal and masterful, at the least. This isn't a bash on you Yurch, at all. But, I think Da_Blade made an excellent point when he said:

I can't help but think that if yurch or some other "respected" member of the community released this very same mutie everyone would be a lot more serious about this. But hey, it's only TOAD who made this now, he's not part of the posse.

I know Yurch reads the forums, and I would like to know his feelings on another mutator based on his excellent work.

In addition to that, how is it too early to release it? I don't get that one. It's just another style of play, and clearly Toad has released it as a "beta" version. When I feel more comfortable with "regular" 2.9, or I want something different, I think it's kinda cool that Toad put the time in it to make it available and hopefully bug free by the time myself and others are READY to play it online. And as usual, once we figure out exactly what to do, me and my budz will probably get another server, and will probably run this mod on it. Those that wish to play or try it out, as always, are more than welcome. Yeah, yeah, we had problems before with ping issues and lag on our previous server (ReconLamer), but we are trying to take steps to change that and make a low-ping, mod filled server available for those that want to play.

FieldMedic - excellent post. 'nuff said 'bout that.

Which brings me to something that I don't normally do: SaraP, I'm kind of offended at your comment. Clearly, you are entitled to your opinion, but to say that this mutator or it's name is a slap to the Infiltration Team, is ridiculous. In the time that I've known Toad personally, he has NEVER ONCE bashed the Inf team, and I know for a fact that he, as well as all of my other online pals think 2.9 is the cat's a$$.

If you would read Toad's posts, there is nothing better-than-thou about what he has presented. In fact, he acquiesced, and changed the name out of respect for the Inf community, and especially out of respect to Yurch.

It's an idea SaraP, a good idea, and takes one helluva lot of time and skill to code as well as he does. Toad reads the forums, and listens closely to the complaints and suggestions of those that try the mutator and see problems with it, or even want something else added. Toad is a former United States Marine, and I think he has a pretty good handle on what he's doing regarding "realism", which of course, in a game is pretty subjective. Most of us have constructively helped Toad when he has questions about real life shooting (and he doesn't have many). "Kludged hacks"? WTF?

If you think I'm defending a pal, you are right. I am.

If you ask me, which I'm sure you wouldn't, the only person I see posting here that is "arrogant and presumptious" is you.

 

[NoFate]

Anyone in this community that knows me also knows I have always tried to be as peaceful as my demeanor allows in regards to posting on these forums. And there have been countless times that I've read a post by someone I thought less-than-qualified on the topic being discussed. That's cool....anybody can regurgitate rhetoric or quote from the latest expert essay that supports their opinion. And yes there are still those who post on these forums that do actually have real-world experience regarding a given topic of discussion. And while I may not agree with them, I have to grant that their experiences may differ from mine. In regards to military and tactical experience, let it suffice that I am a veteran. Those days are behind me now and I choose not to give them any more attention than needed. But I do know war.

So to you with you're expert quotations and no field time. And to you who cheapen this fun game with your nitpicking and needless flaming. And to you who would raise your leg to pee on someone who is experimenting with the limits of this game, HOW DARE YOU. Have some compassion and consideration when you post on these forums. They are a means for intelligent dialogue between people that really do love this game, and not a place for you to speak the whims of your mind. The freedom of speech does not in any way imply that you are no longer responsible for showing at least a decent modicum of common courtesy.

I have spent more time getting to know some people who play this game, like Toad, than others of you. And I am his friend. But I would defend ANYONE who is trying to test the limits of this game, even if I personally didn't like the mutator they came up with. If I don't like it, I have the right not to play it. And the names that I see speaking harshly against anything DIFFERENT are the same ones I always see saying the same thing they always do.....can't shouldn't better not i hate it you're wrong.

People, this community is small. I've seen some new names on the servers as of late and that is very refreshing. If you want to drive them away so you can remain a cloistered little elitist community, keep doing what you're doing. It's already working.

But if you like to see new people getting into this game, and more full servers, and some true improvement in the quality of the PEOPLE you are playing with, then be constructive....because criticisim is way over-rated.

- NF

 

[5eleven]

Amen brother, and this ain't no

 

[Freon]

I just love how 5eleven comes here to give mark to the previous posts in the thread. I think that's what Sara meant by "better-than-thou attitude". You're not better than the people looking down on TOAD

SaraP is right on the "True Scale" name. Real Aim was there to fix things, stamina and shotgun sights for instance. While TS is only there to add or change things. You should have called it something like "TOAD's mutie" or "My vision of what Inf should be"

NoFate, you have to understand that more muties is driving people away. Even RA was driving them away. I know quite a few players that refused to play it because it was more things too learn. Most players don't even know the maps yet. Don't expect them to learn another mutator.

 

[Paskunx]

I know quite a few players that refused to play it because it was more things too learn. Most players don't even know the maps yet. Don't expect them to learn another mutator.

Oh, c'mon,
You talk bout that as if it was as hard as quantum physics. Maybe you underestimate other players wits?

 

[TOAD]

Ah... it's time like this I think I should dust off my Naughty tag muahaha

SaraP, can you please sit down so I can explain something to you... also would you like a drink... how about a warm glass of STFU. The name "True Scale" is just like the name "Real Aim". You can't really have true scaling with a monitor, or real aiming with a damn mouse. The name is just like those catchy tag lines like "funiest movie of the year" or... "dumbest bitch ever" you know...

 

[5eleven]

Freon, would you please explain your first paragraph? I'm not quite sure if that was a slam on me or not. If you are referring to my post AFTER Bushwack, I was posting at the same time that he was, and did not know about or read his post until after I submitted mine.

If you are inferring that I feel that I am "better" than others, I, in no way, think I'm better than anyone posting in these forums. In fact, if you would read many of my other posts, I have always respected everyone else's point of view, and been pretty damned middle of the road about it. Even yours.

I'm just not clear as to what you mean by your comments.

 

[SaraP]

Ah... it's time like this I think I should dust off my Naughty tag muahaha

SaraP, can you please sit down so I can explain something to you... also would you like a drink... how about a warm glass of STFU. The name "True Scale" is just like the name "Real Aim". You can't really have true scaling with a monitor, or real aiming with a damn mouse. The name is just like those catchy tag lines like "funiest movie of the year" or... "dumbest bitch ever" you know...

Despite what you and some other people here seem to think, I am not a rabid fangirl who froths at the mouth at the idea of a mere mortal daring to edit the Holy Code of Sentry Studios. I consider your development of “TrueScale” to be arrogant, presumptuous and a slap in the face to the Infiltration team not because it changes the game, but because Beppo specifically asked people not to make this kind of mutator. You may disagree with some of the design decisions the team made, but common courtesy demands that you not go counter to Sentry's expressed wishes regarding THEIR OWN GAME.

Not aiming for some toes to step on but I honestly don't want that another RA mutator 'fixing' stuff as you guys call it will ever show up.
Small mutators changing this or that ok, but nothing that divides a community in a whole.

And to all those guys that use the term 'I want' pretty often here... maybe make your own mod if you think you know how to make this stuff.

As you can see I try to stay calm but am getting pretty pissed about this stuff going on. Enjoy the damn game and if you do not enjoy it the way it is then go to your favorite store and buy something you like... and then piss in their cornflakes over and over again but do not aim for my froot loops if you get what I mean, period.

Beppo

I just find it annoying that some people are so used to their rules and ideas that they directly start to call for someone to get them into the game they play instead of playing the game for a bit more and maybe to find out that the ways how things work are ok the way they are. Sure, we cannot please everyone but many here are starting to call for changes way too fast for my taste.

Mutators that add something to the gameplay, maybe adding new equipment or new game modes... these are things I would love to see. Maps in general and some with new ideas and maybe even some new scripting for getting this or that effect. That's all cool stuff...
But mutators and game 'fixes' that change a bunch of values changing this or that are only dividing a community into groups that want to play the original and some that want to play the new stuff.

Moding a mod is different than modding a game. Sure it is somewhat an honour to see a mod being modded (doesn't happen very often) but on the other hand it is almost a direct punch thrown at the developers of it if only a slightly different version of the original shows up then.

If you want to setup your own rules aso, then develop your own game types that use the stuff you want but do not change the existing ones. Add new weapons, but do not change the existing ones. Stuff done in much smaller sizes - as yurch already said - is way better than setting up a complex thing that messes up the original totally…

 

[FieldMedic]

NoFate, you have to understand that more muties is driving people away. Even RA was driving them away. I know quite a few players that refused to play it because it was more things too learn. Most players don't even know the maps yet. Don't expect them to learn another mutator.

Just ask , as a sentry studio representative, your friends server admins to not put mutators online for a certain period of time. This way no threat of people running away because they dont want to learn a mutator (on server running RD , few people have learned to use the RD feature , but it doesnt prevent them to play along the other by the way).

Actually , the situation is already like this : server admins (i think i recognized some names of people who have posted there or on the other thread) think it is too early to put mutator, so at this hour there are no threat at all and i doubt there will be any .

From my point of view : more muties is good (even if one introduce triple akimbo guns with rocket launcher on top of the helmet during the time you fly with a redeemer on your back ) , as i enjoy (offline) a lot game variations in INF2.9 (actually i really like the zombie attack provided by TWT_Zombies).

When i play online , i adapt to the choice of the server admin. If on the server i join most of the time there is no mutator , i will continue to play as i enjoy the actual "vanilla" INF2.9 too .

I think i am not an isolate case , plenty of people are capable to have fun with 2.9+muties and vanilla 2.9 in the same time.
the 2.86 day are no more (i wasnt really capable to enjoy in any way vanilla 2.86), 2.9 has put the bridge between players . No muties will break it

 

[5eleven]

Huh SaraP, never saw that post. Thanks for clearing that up. Curious as to the context of the thread in which that was posted. Nobody said you were a fangirl or anything of the sort. But rather than take it upon yourself to rip someone and take personal potshots, why didn't you just post Beppo's comments to begin with and let them stand on their own?

If posted as intended, I can understand where Beppo is coming from, but I personally don't think that by coding a mod to the mod, that Toad is intentionally telling SS that "they don't know what they are doing" or "this is all knockered up, it needs fixing". I don't think that's the case at all. Hell, 2.9 comes with all kinds of weird mutators that you can use for offline play that you never see used online. I dunno, I understand I guess what Beppo is saying, but I really don't see the big deal. I suppose I'd really like Beppo to respond in this thread and clarify what he means himself. Just like I would like to hear from Yurch too.

Not that I'm "better than you", I'm not. It's just that uh, they ARE very respected in this community and I'd like to hear THEIR thoughts as it pertains to this. That's all.

 

[SaraP]

And to you who would raise your leg to pee on someone who is experimenting with the limits of this game, HOW DARE YOU. Have some compassion and consideration when you post on these forums. They are a means for intelligent dialogue between people that really do love this game, and not a place for you to speak the whims of your mind. The freedom of speech does not in any way imply that you are no longer responsible for showing at least a decent modicum of common courtesy.

No, a decent modicum of common courtesy would be to refrain from doing things that the people who slaved over the development of the game told you not to do. Or to paraphrase: And to you who would raise your leg to pee on all of Sentry’s hard work, HOW DARE YOU.

 

[SaraP]

Huh SaraP, never saw that post. Thanks for clearing that up. Curious as to the context of the thread in which that was posted. Nobody said you were a fangirl or anything of the sort. But rather than take it upon yourself to rip someone and take personal potshots, why didn't you just post Beppo's comments to begin with and let them stand on their own?

If posted as intended, I can understand where Beppo is coming from, but I personally don't think that by coding a mod to the mod, that Toad is intentionally telling SS that "they don't know what they are doing" or "this is all knockered up, it needs fixing". I don't think that's the case at all. Hell, 2.9 comes with all kinds of weird mutators that you can use for offline play that you never see used online. I dunno, I understand I guess what Beppo is saying, but I really don't see the big deal. I suppose I'd really like Beppo to respond in this thread and clarify what he means himself. Just like I would like to hear from Yurch too.

Not that I'm "better than you", I'm not. It's just that uh, they ARE very respected in this community and I'd like to hear THEIR thoughts as it pertains to this. That's all.

Beppo posted that in the "Yurch's antics reach a new level!" thread when people started asking about RAv3. I didn't repost them in my original post here because I was furious and because I knew that Toad had already seen Beppo's comments since he replied in that thread.

The bottom line is that Sentry has said that mutators which add new features or correct bugs that the team didn't spot are OK; mutators which only second-guess the team's intentional design decisions (as this one does) are not.

 

[Bushwack]

To the best of my understanding, that thread in which Beppo replied with those comments was made at a time when 2.9 was very newly released, and had i spent 2+ years coding and recoding, bug squashing etc, i would have been slightly ired by the manner in which the persons in that thread were posting as well, but like i have stated before, most people support thier views based soley on PARTS of a WHOLE to bolster thier arguements. Those comments you highlighted in particular, are totally out of context NOW, read the dates of the original posts, and then kindly read the dates on these posts.
Anyone is entitled to thier opinions, thats a given, the point we are trying to make that attempting to bash people for thier efforts, is juvenile, triting poetic and boldfacedly disguising a direct insult of ones intelligence, is juvenile.
Spending more time posting on these forums and less time playing is entirely retarded, and losing ones cool to the point of not posting a rational arguement and resorting to kindergarten type jibes at thier motives {which is all supposition since i doubt youve ever talked at great length with Toad in person, or otherwise} is in extremis the type of thing you have accused Toad of committing.
The words REAL and TRUE, well it doesnt take a genius to notice the glaring similarity in those terms, as well as those terms being taken in the Context of Infiltration as being highly subjective. So claiming that the mere name of something implies hidden aggression is based solely on conjecture and a biased opinion, which anyone is entitled to have, but the manner in which you choose to share your opinion is poorly chosen.
There are many ways to criticise, many ways to help, many ways to divide something. Posting insults to ones intelligence shows the maturity level of the author, namecalling and resorting to schoolchild mentality and pointing fingers is altogether what divides a much commented tightknit community , NOT the ADDITION of a mere mutator.
Its common sense people, just like a buffet, if you dont like whats being served, pass it up, but bashing the restauranteur for placing in his/her buffet something you find distasteful, is the epitomy of childishness and egotism, in its truest form.

Ive typed enough, i think ill play my grossly flawed and 'slap in the face' mutators, waving my fist in the air of Sentry Studios {which i dont know if its common knowledge, but why dont you TS2.9 haters just ask Beppo from whom he borrowed the idea for one of the included mutators from originally?} the rolling nade mute...you'll be VERY surprised where that one came from at the last minute. And until such a time or action is taken that absolutely removes Toad from posting a release of his mutator is taken by one of the Sentry Studios team, why dont we all let the Team members speak for themselves when it comes to things like this. Unless youve formally been hired as Sentry Studios PR representative, i think your opinion weighs in at roughly the same heft as all the hot air in the ballon full of BS your spouting.


BW out!

 

[kungpaosamuraiii]

All I really have to say is this:

Chill

 

[5eleven]

Don't get furious, it's just a game and these are just their forums.

I did not read all of that thread, much less just prior to the release of or post release of 2.9. I think I posted once, but it didn't have anything to do with that topic. SaraP, that's 47 pages and nearly 2 years of posting!

However, since you made a valid point, I did go back and read the posts with which you referred, just pre/post 2.9 release and Beppo's comments, as well as Toad's and Yurch's, and Kaoh's and others.

I took a very different view of this entire exchange and thread. Since you were kind enough to show me when I asked, that's why I read the last several pages of thread and asked you earlier in what context all of that was posted.

What I took from that was Beppo being slightly offended (and rightly so) not so much about mutators, but people in the forums simply bitching and bitching about features that they didn't like, and THEREBY bashing Infiltration. Yurch disagreed with Beppo's comments about "no mods" and they ultimately carried on quite a respectful "agree to disagree" dialogue. Toad even said in his post that the work that Beppo did on 2.9 was awesome, and showed his respect for the work. I hardly see that as a slap in the face to SS. Toward the end of the thread, which had twisted and turned over the years to a basic request for Yurch to code RaV3, Beppo clarified himself, appreciated the respect shown and and basically said "do what you want". Kaoh also had added that modding the mod was the most sincere form of appreciation for SS work.........

I do not want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think that Beppo was really sick and tired of people bitching in the forums about what they needed to change. I agree. And as I've always said, it isn't the mod that splits the community, it's the complaining that comes with the mod. As always, Beppo made some very good points, and he is more than entitled to. Yurch as well. And I think they adequately and fairly each addressed the "split community" argument.

I still stand behind my opinion that Toad's work is not arrogant, nor is it a slap in the face to SS. Far from it.

You are entitled to your opinion, I just personally think that you took Beppo's thread, and did not address the following threads. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[yurch]

I know Yurch reads the forums, and I would like to know his feelings on another mutator based on his excellent work.

First off, I can't claim any credit on how this mutator was made, RA may serve as a nice tutorial at this point on how to get to a particular piece of code or another but most of the steps toad has taken are probably his own.

As for releasing mutators, (I'm sitting on a fixed ballistics 40mm mutator with 2 new ammo types, shrapnel damage and smoke effects!) I'm wary of putting anything out myself. I remember running the first server with RA, and it wasn't exactly easy. TKing, harrassment, hacks, you name it. The community now is a bit more accepting of server differences, but threads like these are an indication to me that the community hasn't really decided on the subject.

What I think beppo means in his posts is that he wants new stuff that everyone can enjoy, not a "has or has not" mutator. I might consider running things past him or other people first, but hey, I can't stop others from doing what they want on thier servers or offline games.

Aside from actshun (which is too silly to be taken seriously) I don't plan on releasing much any time "soon". One thing I don't want to put the ICLR boys through is an ugly situation where some group of people have mutators they HAVE to play with... anyone who runs such mutators should understand they are going against the standard.

Big mutators like RA will show up inevitably, but the game isn't that bad that we need them right away.

 

[NoFate]

Freon, I don't expect anyone to learn another mutator if they don't want to. That's their right to choice, and I have seen plenty of servers that cater to both games with and without muties. So it's not like the exsistance of any given mutie is going to leave the people that don't want to spend the effort learning how it incorporates into the game with no place to play. There's room in this community for just about any and every type of add-on that you can think of, even the more fantastic like lasers and such.

As for what was and is splitting up this community, I think that the existance of mutators is simply a convenient scapegoat. Yes with vanilla INF and rav2 and ra286 there was a division in the places you would find people playing; each person went to the servers that hosted the style of game they preferred. That only makes sense. But the real division in the community is here in the forums. It comes from the people who take it upon themselves to tell anyone else in this community that they can't create a mutie or change some game physics or whatever simply because they think it shouldn't be done. You (the community) do not get to dictate to me what style of gameplay I may participate in if there is something available outside of the stock game. And if somone has a server and chooses to host something you don't like, then don't show up. That is your only recourse. And that should be enough for you. Case in point; even though I never cared for vanilla INF, never once did I complain that because bunnyhopping is so entirely unrealistic, all the MUF servers should be shut down because they are an effrontment to the theme of Infiltration ....'As real as it gets." But that's what I am hearing from so many people on these forums; that something like TS29 should not even exist because, for whatever reason, you find it offensive.

You want a tight and fast-growing community, then I propose this; instead of bombarding the forums with negativity whenever some new (or old) idea rears its ugly head, step back for a second, take a deep breath and instead say "ok, let's see if this idea even has a chance of being successful". It may be that you find yourselves looking at someone else's idea and saying "I can improve on what he/ she is doing". And if you can, then send them a PM with your idea. It's called being constructive. I don't believe in the term constructive criticisim because any idea that truly helps something or someone become better is in no way a negative thing. And criticisim is negative even if only by the the bad connotation that we associate with the word. We can help each other make things better or we can fight about it.

- NF

 

[5eleven]

Thanks Yurch...........makes sense.