Serenity (spoilers sold separately)

[geogob]

Well that's the thing. It's not about shiny space ships, big guns, phasers and "antimater flux power conduits that blows up when another ship comes too close" (or what ever stupid crap they invent in the "others SF movies/series".

 

[Nukeproof]

For example Alien 2 had no "Phaser guns" or fancy shaceships either but a believable progress to todays technology. Still the environment seemed more solid to me than the Serenity vision.

Who'd use a wild west style revolver in the distant future (like the on the captain kept using)?

 

[UN17]

You can't fully enjoy Serenity without watching the original 13 episodes of Firefly. It would be like watching Star Wars : Return of the Jedi without watching the other 5 movies. You might enjoy bits and pieces, but you won't have a clue who is who or give a damn what happens to the characters.

And I agree, the Firefly/Serenity universe is not a 'probable' future but because most of the series is kept low-tech (like Aliens but they are more advanced than Aliens. They have lasers, jump drive, psionics, holography and hover technology.), you don't run into strange occurences where problems are solved by rearranging little glass chips in your transducer matrix or other engineering acts of god.

 

[Cap'n Beeb]

For example Alien 2 had no "Phaser guns" or fancy shaceships either but a believable progress to todays technology. Still the environment seemed more solid to me than the Serenity vision.

Who'd use a wild west style revolver in the distant future (like the on the captain kept using)?

In the director's cut, Hudson mentioned a bunch of weapons we never saw. Particle beam phalanx, phased plasma pulse rifles, and sonic-electronic ballbreakers. (Woo!)

And I'd use a wheelgun in the future. They'll never go out of style, never.

 

[DEFkon]

I sorta liked the weapon philosophy in the serenity universe. I'm not say'n i agree with it 100%, but i find it feasible that in the future people will still be useing hot lead, rather than lasers or partical beam technobable. It's simple, it works, it's cheap. I wouldn't flinch at seeing some futuristic character pulling out some AK varient, those things will probably still be used for years to come so long as someone's making parts and ammo.

About the only place i'd disagree with serenity, and most other sci-fi is that in a future where the most common battlefield would be the CQB nature of ship interiors, that rifles might not be common place. The last thing i'd want to use in a tight presurized enviorment would be an armor piercing round, or something that would ricochet alot. The big problem of course would be that if your Opfor is using body armor (which is an area that could have alot of RD) you could be facing a situation where the target is more armored than the enviorment. I have no idea what kind of firearm i'd take for that type of fight. Maybe some kind of Shotgun?? with a bayonet? lol.

Anyhow as far as Mal's revolver? I'd say it's more of a personal choice. It's never explained as to why he uses it, infact during the war he seems happy with Mp5's and G36's IIRC. My guess is that it's supposed to reflect the fact that he favors old fashioned reliability. Which would fit with his choice for a firefly class.

 

[ravens_hawk]

Yeah the guns were annoying, if there were supposed to be guns I could understand it but they were supposed to be fricken laser beams or some such. I think it's just that it started as low budget and they kept it for the movies. Either way, it was just a cool sci-fi action flick with a decent plot (much better than starwars I'd say.)

 

[UN17]

In the war he was a Soldier. As the captain of a Firefly class cargo ship (that has absolutely no weapons... Edit: Except the psyker on board, two ex-Browncoat soldiers, a big mercenary with a hefty arsenal and an ex-government agent, and the ship itself as a battering ram?) perhaps machine pistols and laser guns aren't his thing anymore. The revolver is for self-defense, not killing large numbers of whatever. Big, heavy, space guns? They're Jayne's thing.

 

[Arethusa]

Yeah the guns were annoying, if there were supposed to be guns I could understand it but they were supposed to be fricken laser beams or some such. I think it's just that it started as low budget and they kept it for the movies. Either way, it was just a cool sci-fi action flick with a decent plot (much better than starwars I'd say.)

Um, what the hell are you talking about? There are no laser weapons in the movie. They're all traditional projectile weapons, with the exception of the pistol the operative takes off a dead soldier at the end.

 

[geogob]

Any sci-fi movie that uses lasers as small arms loses its credibility. Unless someone comes with a brilliant new idea how to amplify light coherently to make a laser, having a weapon-power level laser as a small arm is just ridiculous.

 

[Nukeproof]

I just borrowed all the firefly episodes from a friend - I gonna re-evaluate Serenity once I'm done with watching 'em.

My point was: Serenity uses quite some silly and well established SciFi cliches that I was hoping not to see this time. (gravity within a small spaceship, flying in space like an airplane etc.)

Sidenote question: Do gunpowder driven bullets work in non oxygen environment? I know guns can be shot under water but does the explosion "feed" itself from oxygen from the water or does the explosive material contain its "own" oxygen?

 

[geogob]

I'm pretty sure some chemicals are unstable enough to explose without oxygen

 

[Arethusa]

Flying in space is not like an airplane. Between that and you thinking that the guns were laser weapons, I am wondering just how much of the movie you actually stuck around for.

And, yes, bullets will fire just fine in space.

 

[Nukeproof]

Flying in space is not like an airplane. Between that and you thinking that the guns were laser weapons, I am wondering just how much of the movie you actually stuck around for.

That's what I complained about, what I'm fully aware of but most SciFi authors obviously not. Vehicles in space don't work like airplanes but in serenity they seem to (big battle at the end).

I saw the full movie and if it didn't get a A+ rating here I might not even be disappointed. And I never brought up laser guns - I just mentioned that 90% of the weaponry looks like stuff you could buy today.

 

[Arethusa]

But the vehicles in Serenity don't behave like airplanes. The battle at the end wasn't even in space. This is why I am wondering if you were paying attention.

As for the weapons, that's because 90% of it is. This honestly doesn't strain credibility nearly as much as you make it out to.

 

[DEFkon]

"But the vehicles in Serenity don't behave like airplanes."

Infact Firefly was one of the few Sci-fi shows that went for a very realistic aproach to physics and space flight. If you watch the series you'll note that in the cut scenes where they show ships in space they use manuvering jets for orientation, and operate with inertia. During re-entery they show ships doing retro burns for deceleration ect ect.

It's never really explained outright how ship's in the Firefly/Serenity universe traverse the large distances of space but based off of the conversations in the series it basically operates as a kind of super powerfull nuke/fusion thrust based engine. You wanna go somewhere faster? Just make a longer/bigger burn. Fuel doesn't auto-regenerate as its shortage often plays a part in stories, hence i suspect they usually take the slow route and opt for a few days worth of travel. It's also worth noting there's no food replicators in the serenity universe, so a ships "range, or endurance" is really only limited by the amount of food it can carry much like todays SSN's. Air and other life support seems to be reycled somehow by the engine.

As far as guns working in space? I really don't know. A vacume is only part of the equation, because the other is extreem tempratures in both directions depending direct sunlight, and lack of gravity.

Gravity would effect recoil, and range. Hopfully your bolted down cause otherwise it'll just be your mass to absorb the kick, so you'll probably go floating backwards a bit. Infact if your not a big guy, you might end up limp wristing it even with a perfect grip. Ejected casesing would defentily be a pretty sight to see espically on a SAW. Follow up shots would be take some getting used to cause you wont have the weight of the gun to lower the barrel... I doubt that short term exposer would do anything to the actuall cartridge, but i'd be cautions about prolonged exposures.. might cause the powders to shift around funny like? i dunno much about that though.

Tempratures could be a pain. Everyone gets the idea that space is only cold, but if your in sunlight it's the opposite. Modern spacecraft have to rotate to keep one side of the ship from being super heated. Prolonged exposure to sunlight might be enough to cook off ammo, or prevent a barrel from cooling. Extreem cold would need special oils for lubrication i suppose but wouldn't be a huge issue with modern military weaponary.

I doubt that a vacume would prevent a cartridge from firing. It's a matter of combustion, and a modern bullet has a primer which is like a mechanical spark plug, and the gunpowder is the stuff it burns. Lack of any atmo would effect bullet trajectory as well as lack of gravity so don't forget to zero for both. I don't know much about "gas operated" automatic rifles though.. maybe they might have an issue.

---

Ironically there was an episode where they did have to use a gun in space AND they said it needed air around it to fire.. they just shoved the rifle in an empty space suit and fired it from within it.

 

[UN17]

You'd think after being attacked so often as a Cargo ship on the fringes of civilization, Mal would have the sense to mount a cannon or something on the outside of his ship. That WW2 Anti-Aircraft turret worked fine in the movie. Too bad he didn't think of that sooner. Then again, flying around with a huge gun on the outside of your Cargo ship is probably against Alliance regulations.

 

[geogob]

Pretty good analysis on use of conventional weapons in space.

The only point left to ponder is the need for oxygen. Some explosive might need oxygen. Other not. I would say that in most cases they don't.

An explosive is a chemical compound that, when given a small amount of energy, violently reacts. Usually unstable molecules breaking up (well that's a bit oversimplified) releasing lots of energy (heat) and gas. There is not need for oxygen for that reaction to take place. Some explosives are actually a mixture of fuel and oxydant. I would say gunpowder is one of those explosive. Having the fuel and oxydant, they might not need oxygen, although some might need it for a full chemical reaction. Often the fuel and/or oxydant are under a different form (for more stability) and some primary reaction might be needed to create the main reaction. There oxygen could be needed. But really, needing oxygen for a weapon would be a bit stupid... I mean, if you need a significant amount of oxygen, you'd expect there would be a way for the oxygen to reach the combustion chamber (i.e. the cartrige). That not really the case...


Another thing I would be worried to are internal ballistics... more then external. Without any atmosphere in the barrel and around the chamber, I wonder how the internal ballistics would be. Maybe that would be more of a problem then the lack of oxygen itself. Actually it's for the same reason I wouldn't fire a rifle under water. The HK-water gun thing, as far it seems is simply a convetional pistol water proofed. The barrel is sealed and is only opened by the bullet going through the seal, at the muzzle. At this point the acceleration is finished and the presence of water isn't a problem anymore.

 

[Arethusa]

The problem with firing a gun underwater is overpressure. In a vacuum, you don't really have any problem with that at all— but I would be a little concerned about firing, say, a Glock, or anything else lacking a fully supported chamber. I really don't know enough about cartridges, reloading, and ballistic pressures to say whether this is could really be a problem or not.

Not all guns will even have problems firing underwater, and any modern catridge fed weapon will fire at least once. Some will catastrophically fail, some will end up with warped or cracked barrels (M16s are famous for this, especially in Vietnam), some will simply fail to cycle, and some will function just fune without modification. But cartridges are sealed, so unless those fail, they will go off in any environment. DEFkon raises some interesting points about temperature, though, as that could certainly affect the life of exposed equipment and ammunition.

 

[geogob]

Usable cartrige life in vaccum would sure be very short. A water proof seal and a gas proof seal and quite the same thing. Under vaccum environement, the explosive might behave very badly, decompose, or what's not.

Also, protecting ammunition from the heat would be quite easy. Protecting it from cold quite less. I would say that some chemical reactions would probably not even happen at such low temperatures. 3 K is the temperature of deep space. You'll never get the gun cooled at those temperature, but even around 80 K not many chemical reactions that are andothermic or have an andothermic initialisation can take place. So you'd probably have to heat the barrel, chamber and ammunition.

Another problem with thermal variation is even more important with firearms. Chances are that at 80K, the bullet won't even fit into the barrel due to mechanical variation due to temperature. Anyone who worked with mechanism in those conditions know what I mean

There's nothing like very cold and very hot temperature to mess up all the tolerances of your mechanical design.

 

[ravens_hawk]

Sorry I assumed the weapons were supposed to be lasers based on the noise they made, and the mention of laser type weapons in the TV show (it's been a while but in particular I'm thinking of "Trash.") I had always assumed they had just saved the money by not building props and used existing weapons...