Religious/Evolutionary Debate Thread
- Thread starter QUALTHWAR
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wrong end of the stick...
You remember the boy who cried wolf? Qualthwar is the peasants.
Reign said:Um, Qualth? My last post in your thread was #631. Perhaps Vision is actually your own "alter" ego. If he is, I must say, nice job. I can appreciate some one pulling a stunt like that from time to time. You have indeed proven that you can argue both sides of a topic quite well. All this time, I was under the impression that your grasp of the Christian side of the discussion was weak at best but I was clearly mistaken. Your Vision persona is quite good Qualth...a little too good if you ask me.
You remember the boy who cried wolf? Qualthwar is the peasants.
I don’t really know or care if you’re the same person or not. All I know is it seemed to me like you ran into a brick wall trying to debate with me, bailed out and came back with another alias. An alias with a posting pattern eerily similar to Reign; a newly created account, and backing someone named Reign. I think you can see why I thought you were the same person. It seemed like you got served as Reign and created another account to start anew and to add credence to Reign. It doesn’t really matter to me; I can handle myself whether you are one alias or 50 aliases trying to add credibility to yourself by agreeing with yourself. I could just ask Mass if you’re posting from the same IP or not, but I don’t really give a **** one way or the other.Reign said:Um, Qualth? My last post in your thread was #631. Perhaps Vision is actually your own "alter" ego. If he is, I must say, nice job. I can appreciate some one pulling a stunt like that from time to time. You have indeed proven that you can argue both sides of a topic quite well. All this time, I was under the impression that your grasp of the Christian side of the discussion was weak at best but I was clearly mistaken. Your Vision persona is quite good Qualth...a little too good if you ask me.
i have noticed that every person who practices any religion, when questioned about their belifes, they will answer you, but with faith-based answers. when questioned further they get irritated and defensive. when the debate is further pursued, they refuse to debate anymore.
WHY CANT CHRISTIANS OR ANY OTHER RELIGION CARRY ON A MY GOD CAN BEAT THE SH!T OUR OF YOUR GOD DEBATE, with out giving up.
WHY CANT CHRISTIANS OR ANY OTHER RELIGION CARRY ON A MY GOD CAN BEAT THE SH!T OUR OF YOUR GOD DEBATE, with out giving up.
I don’t know, but I’ve taken courses in Critical Thinking, Logic, and Psychology and this is what I’ve been told:GoAt said:
When some people begin to lose an argument, they will fall back, or resort to other tactics. One tactic is to change the subject. Another is to try and lay blame on the other party for something. For argument sake, let’s say Reign and Vision are the same people. If this were the case, they would have demonstrated both of these tactics. They try to change the subject and lay the blame on me when they say I’m the one posting as Vision. This is another reason to believe Reign and Vision are the same person, but who really gives a crap.
Back to the discussion: Another thing people do is name-calling, or making fun of another person. They start losing an argument and start calling the other party names, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the argument. Again, they are changing the subject.
Another thing that happens is physical violence. Sometimes people move from name-calling to physical violence, while others go directly to violence. The name-calling and the physical violence are primitive behaviors. People lose their sense of society and resort to caveman days and don’t use their brainpower to debate. People who do this aren’t too far off from primitive man in the first place: it only takes them a small step to move from a mature debate to violence.
Of course, we don’t just forget about years of inbred primitive instincts. Pretty much all of us fall back to a lower form now and then, but mature, educated people attempt to minimize this since they know they are stooping to a lower form.
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Reign said:Um, Qualth? My last post in your thread was #631. Perhaps Vision is actually your own "alter" ego. If he is, I must say, nice job. I can appreciate some one pulling a stunt like that from time to time. You have indeed proven that you can argue both sides of a topic quite well. All this time, I was under the impression that your grasp of the Christian side of the discussion was weak at best but I was clearly mistaken. Your Vision persona is quite good Qualth...a little too good if you ask me.
Reign, I am not Qualthwar, though my posts might have been somewhat untimely, I asure you I am definitely not anyones alter ego. I thought I was rid of this thread but I put too much effort into these post to allow Qualthwar to be wrongly accredited.Thank you for the complement all the same, and you were not mistaken his Christian stance is very weak. Very weak indeed. nothing personel Qualthwar, but for someone who tells other people to go study; you should include yourself. For the record i am not Reign either (see beginning same applies).
Qualthwar haven't you figured out yet the only thing your marble proves is life could never have come into being by accident? The marble consistently took the same path no randomnous at all. No chance involved it was continuously systematic. There is your answer!
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I don't think accident is same as chance in this case. Certain conditions lead to certain things. And while I'll agree that evolution has it's share of hills to climb, I can't possibly believe for an instant that this world and everything in it was created by an invisible man that nobody can see and who promises us either eternal heaven when we be good or eternal damnation in hell if we do bad.
Science is an understanding of reality and evolution exists in the real world with real physical possibilites. Creationism is an idea that holds no physical weight and exists souly on the word of men from thousands of years ago. If a man comes to my door and tells me he wants to sell me a vaccum that can suck crap off my floor better than the one I'm using, I'm gonna want to try it out and compare before I buy it. I'm not gonna say "really? Well if you say so, here's 50 bucks, have a nice day!"
Science is an understanding of reality and evolution exists in the real world with real physical possibilites. Creationism is an idea that holds no physical weight and exists souly on the word of men from thousands of years ago. If a man comes to my door and tells me he wants to sell me a vaccum that can suck crap off my floor better than the one I'm using, I'm gonna want to try it out and compare before I buy it. I'm not gonna say "really? Well if you say so, here's 50 bucks, have a nice day!"
"eternal heaven when we be good or eternal damnation in hell if we do bad."
Problem is,that,like I said way back in this thread,was,
if they are relying on science then! logic MUST prevale...
Hence there is NO mid term evolutants,there would have to be.
One must think all because the bible addreses the "creation" (way before darwin)AS WELL AS morals to lead one through life and many societies throughout time, AND EVERY person on earth believes in some higher being.
That all there doing today is to try and disprove the truest form of documentation and history of the only answer.
There is a GOD...........
So you all choose your way,plus what are the cosequences of believing in God
if your so opposed to the good and or are trying to buck the fact we are inteligent creatures,Of whom take it upon themselves to think they can outhink why we ended up here,floating in the middle of noware,CHANCE ?,
There is no mid term evolutants NONE.!!!!
Problem is,that,like I said way back in this thread,was,
if they are relying on science then! logic MUST prevale...
Hence there is NO mid term evolutants,there would have to be.
One must think all because the bible addreses the "creation" (way before darwin)AS WELL AS morals to lead one through life and many societies throughout time, AND EVERY person on earth believes in some higher being.
That all there doing today is to try and disprove the truest form of documentation and history of the only answer.
There is a GOD...........
So you all choose your way,plus what are the cosequences of believing in God
if your so opposed to the good and or are trying to buck the fact we are inteligent creatures,Of whom take it upon themselves to think they can outhink why we ended up here,floating in the middle of noware,CHANCE ?,
There is no mid term evolutants NONE.!!!!
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ReD_Fist said:
so since the roman gods were here BEFORE the christian god evolved out of stoicism(latin philosophy, judaism and jesus "teachings" put down by his apostels) they are more right than the christian god? I could go on enumerating different faiths AND philosophies all neglecting your first come, ultimate truth argument...
Y'know, back in the stoneage thunder and lightning was explained by "higher beings, beign angry or fighting". The smarter we got the more complex religions became and one day we ended up with the 4(or 5) world religions which are if you study them well amalgams of localized religions etc.
You answered my question. You’re just another religious person who dodges such questions. I ask you a simple question: you either pick tube 22 or tube 78 to adjust your marble to, but you can’t answer it.ViSion said:
One path implies faith while the other path implies repeatable results. One group of people have analyzed their surroundings by conducting experiments that others could repeat. Another group has a leader who carefully made observations and came to a conclusion that is conveyed in such a way that many others now agree with that conclusion.
If you’re implying that I don’t know enough about religion to decide about this or that, then you might as well say that for the majority of the religious population. They don’t know enough about religion to be deciding this or that, but they still follow a religious path and that may be okay with you. It’s okay in one instance, but not in another.
The truth of the matter is even if you’re a renowned religious scholar, you don’t necessarily “KNOW” anything. You just think you know. You put 20 religious scholars in a room and they aren’t all going to agree on religious events. Some will say some stories of the bible are just stories to teach lessons; others will say the events happened verbatim. Some will say Jesus is the son of god, while others dismiss the notion. This non-consensus has been an integral part of this debate from the very beginning.
Balton beat me too it. I find alot of Christians assume that their faith is right simply because it is older than evolutionism theories. But by that same logic they roll their eyes when people like me and Balton bring up the arguement that "Well what about all those hundreds of other religious faiths that have existed before Christianity and date back to early man when we looked into the sky with wonder and believed in Gods in the sky?"
I'll tell you, not only does that massively cripple your whole arguement Red Fist, but it just shows that you are willing to ignore an entire list of earlier faiths and religions prior to yours simply because this was the one you grew up with. How can you really proclaim so much when you aren't willing to step out of your own bubble and really check out other answers? I have. If there is a God he damn well knows I have, and when I compare all that faith to science...religion just falls short.
I'm not gonna say it is a foolproof idea, hell we've been saying this the whole time. But alot of the ideas in evolution make sense and YES, evolution in a sense does occur in the situations and things alot of us have described. Lucy is considered by many scientists to be such a midway organism, the fact that the fossil is different from both ape and man but carries characteristics of both, well that says alot. Could it be a seperate, ancient species all together? Sure, but the chances that it is a midway fossil is just as good.
And saying that the lack of midway organisms doesn't single handedly disprove evolution as a theory. But the fact that you guys all seem to be bent more or argueing the validity of this theory rather than propose REAL evidence that of all the invisible Gods that have existed in the course of human history yours is the real one true God....well that really doesn't say much about your stance. Sorry but, you guys all seem to going around in circles without offering even the slightest bit of relative info that the evolutionists supporters are bringing to the table.
No. The evolutionists are simply trying to prove their own theory. It is you guys who are "trying to disprove the truest form of documentation and history of the only real answer".
Truest form of documentation? Since when is faith based on mythology. Documentation? You can't just make shiit like that up! Only real answer? I say again, your religious faith was certainly not the first faith to be believed in by mankind and it won't be the last.
Prove it.
If I stand on a corner of some street and keep saying "There is a tooth fairy there is a tooth fairy" it doesn't neccessarily make it so now does it?
Pffffff...Wow. Open a history book there brother. And I mean a real history book, not the bible.
Opposed to the Good? Since when is thinking for yourself evil? Since when is religion in this society a complete and total good thing? I've said this before, show me a time in history where people were raped, murdered, enslaved, and banished by scientists. Guess what, religion is the number one cause of the above mentioned things, and it's still happening today.
I do agree people tend to over think their orgins, but I'd rather be a skeptic than someone who relies on blind faith. And I only say blind because nothing anyone on your side has said is giving me the impression that it isn't blind faith. None of my christian upbringing through 12 years of private schooling made me think it was anything more than the blind faith of a people terrified of change, sex, death, and gay people.
I'll tell you, not only does that massively cripple your whole arguement Red Fist, but it just shows that you are willing to ignore an entire list of earlier faiths and religions prior to yours simply because this was the one you grew up with. How can you really proclaim so much when you aren't willing to step out of your own bubble and really check out other answers? I have. If there is a God he damn well knows I have, and when I compare all that faith to science...religion just falls short.
ReD_Fist said:
I'm not gonna say it is a foolproof idea, hell we've been saying this the whole time. But alot of the ideas in evolution make sense and YES, evolution in a sense does occur in the situations and things alot of us have described. Lucy is considered by many scientists to be such a midway organism, the fact that the fossil is different from both ape and man but carries characteristics of both, well that says alot. Could it be a seperate, ancient species all together? Sure, but the chances that it is a midway fossil is just as good.
And saying that the lack of midway organisms doesn't single handedly disprove evolution as a theory. But the fact that you guys all seem to be bent more or argueing the validity of this theory rather than propose REAL evidence that of all the invisible Gods that have existed in the course of human history yours is the real one true God....well that really doesn't say much about your stance. Sorry but, you guys all seem to going around in circles without offering even the slightest bit of relative info that the evolutionists supporters are bringing to the table.
ReD_Fist said:
No. The evolutionists are simply trying to prove their own theory. It is you guys who are "trying to disprove the truest form of documentation and history of the only real answer".
Truest form of documentation? Since when is faith based on mythology. Documentation? You can't just make shiit like that up! Only real answer? I say again, your religious faith was certainly not the first faith to be believed in by mankind and it won't be the last.
ReD_Fist said:
Prove it.
If I stand on a corner of some street and keep saying "There is a tooth fairy there is a tooth fairy" it doesn't neccessarily make it so now does it?
ReD_Fist said:
Pffffff...Wow. Open a history book there brother. And I mean a real history book, not the bible.
ReD_Fist said:
Opposed to the Good? Since when is thinking for yourself evil? Since when is religion in this society a complete and total good thing? I've said this before, show me a time in history where people were raped, murdered, enslaved, and banished by scientists. Guess what, religion is the number one cause of the above mentioned things, and it's still happening today.
I do agree people tend to over think their orgins, but I'd rather be a skeptic than someone who relies on blind faith. And I only say blind because nothing anyone on your side has said is giving me the impression that it isn't blind faith. None of my christian upbringing through 12 years of private schooling made me think it was anything more than the blind faith of a people terrified of change, sex, death, and gay people.
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QUALTHWAR said:
That's most completely true thing I've heard in this thread in awhile. You ever tried argueing christian vs science with a group of people who don't know who moses is? Who don't know a single name of an apostle. Who have never even read the bible? It's sad when the side your debating against knows less about their content than you do. I'm not referring to Vision or Reign or even anyone in this thread, but from more personal experience with people outside the internet. I said before that I don't really have a side but I do follow science way before I'd ever follow religion. And I've gotten in enough real life arguements about it to know...most religious people don't know jack shiit about religion.
i still wana know why the bible and its teachings must evolve with the times.
why must we accept gays
why are women allowed short hair
why are men allowed long hair
why are we allowed divorce.
why is masturbation becoming more accepted and no longer taboo and a huge sin.
evolution exsists! religions evolove to adapt to the times.
why must we accept gays
why are women allowed short hair
why are men allowed long hair
why are we allowed divorce.
why is masturbation becoming more accepted and no longer taboo and a huge sin.
evolution exsists! religions evolove to adapt to the times.
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I really have no idea how religious and scientific notions got started, and probably nobody really knows, but I can speculate on how such things might have started out.
I suspect that people led simple existences many years ago. People began to converge on a region that was good for growing crops and existing and towns sprung up. I can imagine older and wiser people being asked why this happens or that happens. These wiser people must have presented a fatherly presence to the village. When weird events occurred that could not be explained, such as earthquakes, unusual rainfall, dying crops, etc. these wise men were pressed for answers. I can see them saying that there must be an even higher father who is ruling us. This higher father cannot be directly contacted, so the wise men of the village would hold their special status if they were considered a special go-between.
Religion starts in this way. An invisible power that can kill people with blowing winds, floods, etc. now becomes a god and the fathers of the village become the priests that try and talk with god and explain to us his ways.
We didn’t have any notion of scientific instruments at the time. We only saw a limited part of the world. We didn’t understand about atoms, carbon dating, rock strata, views from space, past discoveries of fossils from people around the globe. It took time for science to make its mark.
Of course science is going to be younger than religion. People in villages who didn’t understand something didn’t build atomic accelerators to figure out what was going on. They took what they knew of their world and tried to explain things in those terms. That’s why we have stories of the earth being destroyed by floods. That’s why we hear about the earth being destroyed by fire the next time around. Crap! We’re way past fires. If I was a 21 century god, I’d be talking about hurling the earth into a black hole where our atoms are pulled apart. Something, anything, but some mundane fire.
Mr. P., I know what you mean. I’ve had religious debates with people who don’t know all that much about their beliefs. They just believe in something because that’s what they’ve been taught. It’s like some Twilight Zone flick where people are programmed a certain way and they won’t hear of anything else.
GoAt: You bring up a good point. The church threatened Galileo when he said the earth revolved around the sun. It wasn’t until recent times that the catholic church publicly said they made a mistake and shouldn’t have imprisoned Galileo for the last 8 years of his life just because he believed in Copernicus. This is a good example of changing views within the church. Changing views bother me when it comes to religion. I think of a god as being definite; as being a force that isn't wishy-washy. I can’t see a god who was supposed to impress the ten commandments onto tablets being ambiguous. The changes that you describe seem to demonstrate that man is writing the rulebook, not a god.
I suspect that people led simple existences many years ago. People began to converge on a region that was good for growing crops and existing and towns sprung up. I can imagine older and wiser people being asked why this happens or that happens. These wiser people must have presented a fatherly presence to the village. When weird events occurred that could not be explained, such as earthquakes, unusual rainfall, dying crops, etc. these wise men were pressed for answers. I can see them saying that there must be an even higher father who is ruling us. This higher father cannot be directly contacted, so the wise men of the village would hold their special status if they were considered a special go-between.
Religion starts in this way. An invisible power that can kill people with blowing winds, floods, etc. now becomes a god and the fathers of the village become the priests that try and talk with god and explain to us his ways.
We didn’t have any notion of scientific instruments at the time. We only saw a limited part of the world. We didn’t understand about atoms, carbon dating, rock strata, views from space, past discoveries of fossils from people around the globe. It took time for science to make its mark.
Of course science is going to be younger than religion. People in villages who didn’t understand something didn’t build atomic accelerators to figure out what was going on. They took what they knew of their world and tried to explain things in those terms. That’s why we have stories of the earth being destroyed by floods. That’s why we hear about the earth being destroyed by fire the next time around. Crap! We’re way past fires. If I was a 21 century god, I’d be talking about hurling the earth into a black hole where our atoms are pulled apart. Something, anything, but some mundane fire.
Mr. P., I know what you mean. I’ve had religious debates with people who don’t know all that much about their beliefs. They just believe in something because that’s what they’ve been taught. It’s like some Twilight Zone flick where people are programmed a certain way and they won’t hear of anything else.
GoAt: You bring up a good point. The church threatened Galileo when he said the earth revolved around the sun. It wasn’t until recent times that the catholic church publicly said they made a mistake and shouldn’t have imprisoned Galileo for the last 8 years of his life just because he believed in Copernicus. This is a good example of changing views within the church. Changing views bother me when it comes to religion. I think of a god as being definite; as being a force that isn't wishy-washy. I can’t see a god who was supposed to impress the ten commandments onto tablets being ambiguous. The changes that you describe seem to demonstrate that man is writing the rulebook, not a god.
MR Pr.......Balton beat me too it. I find alot of Christians assume that their faith is right simply because it is older than evolutionism theories. But by that same logic they roll their eyes when people like me and Balton bring up the arguement that "Well what about all those hundreds of other religious faiths that have existed before Christianity and date back to early man when we looked into the sky with wonder and believed in Gods in the sky?"
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Yes but the FACT is there was allways a belief in a higher power,but it wouldnt make sense that several gods could be around,all that has been writen in the bible has outlived them all.
And whats so FACTUAL is the bible still stands to logic for one leading a good life,and also has an ending,how can they wright such a down patt ending to the end of the earth? how?,And it stays within the context of only one God.
Unlike mythology and lightning,yes we have DISPROVED them,but yet still the bible can be followed with commen sense. sin ,,, no sin,,
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Yes but the FACT is there was allways a belief in a higher power,but it wouldnt make sense that several gods could be around,all that has been writen in the bible has outlived them all.
And whats so FACTUAL is the bible still stands to logic for one leading a good life,and also has an ending,how can they wright such a down patt ending to the end of the earth? how?,And it stays within the context of only one God.
Unlike mythology and lightning,yes we have DISPROVED them,but yet still the bible can be followed with commen sense. sin ,,, no sin,,
I'm no academic when it comes to polytheism, but, didn't most of those religions die out because of war/politics? Not necessarily because they were... numerically inferior.
QUATH "Crap! We’re way past fires. If I was a 21 century god, I’d be talking about hurling the earth into a black hole where our atoms are pulled apart. Something, anything, but some mundane fire."
The way I see it is when God created the heaven and the earth he knew the sun would nova.
Yes science and or humans have figured out what "nova" is ,but that still doesnt prove there isnt a God all because we learned somthing new via science.
I would rather see people try to prove out the bible via science instead of trying to ALLWAYS disprove it.think about it,again it's allready in the bible,the devil will try and try and be very slick and sneaky to get exactly the way you guys are thinking.
I dunno,ones got to trust in at least one thing someware somehow,being the bible spells out alot of stuff,even for the newest of generations, I would rather have blind faith and not listen to man.
I used to go to church and was riased First Netherlands Christian Reform,now I havent been to church now for 30 years,but i believe in God more than i believe in some man made type of religion and or just look around you.
Baby being cut out of that woman,columbine,those tourtured kids in florida,the list keeps getting longer and alot more viscous,geez the dang animals or cavemen wern't is bad all that.
There is no need to question it,and doing good works don't cut it either,there must be faith,and what better faith to test is from somthing you cant see ,hear,taste,feel.
And one other thing I hated church,I hated my mom and dad having big arguments over what we could or couldnt do,no christmass tree,no trick or treat,no TV etc etc,but I still believe in God and really don't need to queston it.
But heres how it worked out,our church gets ministers from the netherlands and they still have dutch service.Well the minister got devorced from the woman who cheated on him.Guess what,the church has split into two churches now.One half thought it was so bad sin from the devorce ,the other didn't.Well there is a perfect example of how the devil manipulated the stricktest church in town,so they all failed in my opinion.
And I don't no squat about history and or other religions wich came and went or stayed ,all I know is ya got to believe there is evil that will tear you down and a good force that will help you up.Of wich is the escense of one god and the bible. and faith.
The way I see it is when God created the heaven and the earth he knew the sun would nova.
Yes science and or humans have figured out what "nova" is ,but that still doesnt prove there isnt a God all because we learned somthing new via science.
I would rather see people try to prove out the bible via science instead of trying to ALLWAYS disprove it.think about it,again it's allready in the bible,the devil will try and try and be very slick and sneaky to get exactly the way you guys are thinking.
I dunno,ones got to trust in at least one thing someware somehow,being the bible spells out alot of stuff,even for the newest of generations, I would rather have blind faith and not listen to man.
I used to go to church and was riased First Netherlands Christian Reform,now I havent been to church now for 30 years,but i believe in God more than i believe in some man made type of religion and or just look around you.
Baby being cut out of that woman,columbine,those tourtured kids in florida,the list keeps getting longer and alot more viscous,geez the dang animals or cavemen wern't is bad all that.
There is no need to question it,and doing good works don't cut it either,there must be faith,and what better faith to test is from somthing you cant see ,hear,taste,feel.
And one other thing I hated church,I hated my mom and dad having big arguments over what we could or couldnt do,no christmass tree,no trick or treat,no TV etc etc,but I still believe in God and really don't need to queston it.
But heres how it worked out,our church gets ministers from the netherlands and they still have dutch service.Well the minister got devorced from the woman who cheated on him.Guess what,the church has split into two churches now.One half thought it was so bad sin from the devorce ,the other didn't.Well there is a perfect example of how the devil manipulated the stricktest church in town,so they all failed in my opinion.
And I don't no squat about history and or other religions wich came and went or stayed ,all I know is ya got to believe there is evil that will tear you down and a good force that will help you up.Of wich is the escense of one god and the bible. and faith.
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