Recoil - let the experiments begin.

[yurch]

Correct. Inf has a 'kickmod' that increases for sucessive shots, but it usually isn't distinctly notable until the entire mag is involved. A three round burst and three single shots with no compensation will usually group the same.

BF2's SVD sniper rifle has a lesson we can learn from, as well. The recoil motion on this rifle follows a v-shape, recoiling up and then is (automatically) pulled down by the shooter, and usually ends up in a slightly different orientation.

The result of this is a half-second of disruption that nearly EVERYONE has to deal with before fring again - usually you only find people firing at maximum rate in close combat.

Of course, I think this particular recoil pattern would be more fitting to pistols.

 

[gal-z]

Never fired a pistol so I can't comment about that.
About the 2nd shot firing before the recoil has taken a full effect - sounds a bit wierd to me. After all, in order to fire a second shot, the bolt has to move all the way backwards and forward before the shot is fired. The recoil effect is (according to my logic at least) should be fully done until then.

 

[Nukeproof]

I agree - that's in fact what the G11 tried to overcome.

 

[keihaswarrior]

Never fired a pistol so I can't comment about that.
About the 2nd shot firing before the recoil has taken a full effect - sounds a bit wierd to me. After all, in order to fire a second shot, the bolt has to move all the way backwards and forward before the shot is fired. The recoil effect is (according to my logic at least) should be fully done until then.

The same is true for almost all automatic pistols. The slide must recoil back, then come forward chambering a new round. So I am not sure what gnam is talking about. While the recoil isn't instant, it is very fast.

 

[jayhova]

It's important to remember that recoil has a cumalative effect. Recoil in a rifle is buffered by the action. That is to say that until the bolt has moved entirely rearward the full impact of the recoil has not been felt. In addition to this the energy of that rcoil then has to transfer from the firearm into the shooter. the shooter will then compress and then expand in the direction of the recoil as the shockwave moves through him. Finally the shooters orientation will change as the upper right quadrent of his body moves in the direction of the recoil. All of this takes time. Now given that the initial direction of recoil is straight back it is possible to load a new round before the weapon has changed orientation. In the case of most weapons there will be at least some change before the second shot is fired.

 

[Gnam]

Yeah, I'm not saying that the round fires before any recoil is felt, but the rounds fire earlier in the "recoil cycle" than lower ROF weapons. Granted, I don't know exactly how fast a rate of fire you need or exactly how much time it takes for the recoil of a single shot to have full effect on your body (probably varies with the weapon and the shooter) but this effect does exist, and Inf does not simulate it. If the AN-94 were in Inf, it would not fire any tighter bursts than the AK-MSU.

 

[gal-z]

Before putting something like this in game, you'll have to experiment with it a lot, and feel exactly how significant it is if at all, which would be very very hard. Personally I hadn't noticed such an effect, and I'm not surprised, as it either does not practically exist or is very small, at least with my weapon

 

[yurch]

Well, the problem in field 'testing' something like this is that you've basically got a free-floating weapon - the task of keeping the weapon on target will have so many factors, recoil's role will be impossible to distinguish.

I don't doubt this burst recoil effect, as I know a person is often still moving after the bolt has completely cycled, so there's still that potential time window. Too bad you can't bench-test people.

 

[Psychomorph]

I´m sure it's not a big problem for some people out there to test some guns, but hard to tell if they have such an eye for detail as gal-z.

Hmm gal, you have to go to a shooting range and test some various guns (just an idea).

 

[Gnam]

Yeah, I think the only way to tell for sure is to compair various compairable automatic weapons of identical caliber, and close to the same length, weight, ergonomics, etc, but vary the fire rate.

I would bet a M3A1 'Grease Gun' shoots larger burst groups compaired to Thompson's and other .45 cal SMG's of that era (the fire rate of the M3 was close to 350 rpm). Another good compairson would be the Soviet PPS-43 to the PPsh-41. With the highest fire rate in a 5.56mm assault rifle that I know of, the Fa-mas would be a good compairson to almost any other 20" 5.56mm rifle, though preferably the later would have as low a fire rate as possible (AFAIk no 5.56 AR's have a fire rate under 750rpm, so it may be tough). Of course, there would still be other factors to consider which could cause one weapon to shoot tighter bursts than another, but it might give you some clue as to whether this is true. If every higher-ROF weapon shot tighter bursts, then clearly you'd be on to something.

 

[jayhova]

Bear in mind that recoil works 2 ways. Since the shooter is expending energy to hold the weapon in position the energy of the recoil is returned as well. So a slow rate of fire weapon may give more time for the weapon to return to the original position. This is especially true of light weapons firing a heavy round.

 

[gal-z]

If we take putting the weapon back into account and not leave it to the player with the mouse (which is an idea though I doubt it won't take too much control away from the player), only then will low rof weapons will spread less because they can be put back on target faster. If we leave it to the player, it will just be easier with lower rof weapons (assuming same recoil of course) but will still depend a lot on the player.
So we need to decide if recoil compensation is computer or player controlled. Right now I think player controled will be a better idea because making the game try to put the weapon back to where it was will take too much away from the player and won't be completely realistic anyway.

As for firing with different weapons, it's really not so easy for me. Non-pistol civilian shooting ranges are non-existant in Israel AFAIK, and in the pistol ranges you can only fire what they have (probably not too much variety there) or your own pistol, and I'll have to pay for the ammo as well and it's still just pistols. In the army we get to go to shooting ranges once in a while, usually happens every 2 weeks but we probably won't have time for it in the next month due to the holidays. And even then I can only fire my own weapon (everyone has the same weapon in the HQ, though there's a low chance I can get my hands on an M4A1 for shooting). Constantly checking the targets is impossible as we're always in a hurry, and for the same reason it's hard to convince the officer to let me shoot all the ammo that I manage to gather (and I gather a LOT of ammo that gets "neglected" ).

 

[Harrm]

Or maybe there should be a more significant weapon shake that holds true while firing the weapon?

--Harrm

 

[Psychomorph]

@gal-z:
As I know the recoil causes always a kickback-to-front after the actual recoil kickback-back. So the weapon returns a bit, but since it is a human fireing, the weapon never returns to exact the same position where it was before it was fired (it is pointed slightly more up and sideward after the shot). That means you still have to reposition the weapon after the shot.
That means useing fullauto the screen doesn't move up, not really the weapon, but the bullet spread will be more, but if you control the weapons with the mouse you can control the recoil better and minimize the bullet spread.

That's why I think both should be the case, an automatical compensation and the need to reposition the weapon manually with mouse movement.


One I can say, no fireing till the screen looks up! I would suggest, that when kicking fullauto with a highrecoiled weapon, the screen should move only very slightly up (like shaking), but the weapon only start to move slightly up after few shots (when no time to be compensated automatical [like when using bursts]).
So you look still forward, but the weapon moves and fires more up and sways slightly around a bit every time it recoils.

When you stop fireing, the weapon moves back till it's pointed forward again (if you do not make it faster with the mouse).

 

[gal-z]

I know that we're usually noy allowed to fire fullauto because if you're really really not careful you can hit the person standing next to you, or at least be somewhat dangerously close to doing it. So lots of firing with no compensation SHOULD cause extreme turning.

 

[Domox]

In all the trainingg videos etc I have seen on full auto weapons, even full auto is done in short bursts (6-10) rounds max because the body torques slighty to whatever side you hold the gun, even if the shooter is particularly solid and knows what to expect from the hardware.

In my time on the pistol lines the recoil follows a basic V form if things are somewhat loose, however i have seen guys who really know what they were doing eat a hole the size of a golf ball in a target at 10m... pistol recoil is a toughy because _alot_ of it is dependent on the ammo/grip/length of the reciever etc. A desert eagle mk XIX for example shooting action express will smack you in the forehead if you dont watch it, while the same gun with .357 chambered is a whole nother story, its very easy to control imho...

what would be nice is an RPG element where the experience of the player can be transformed into various points that stabilize the gun easier or decrease recovery time after shots.... the only problem is how would you prevent people from hacking this element... I will tell you it would be hard if not dang near impossible....

 

[Demosthanese]

In all the trainingg videos etc I have seen on full auto weapons, even full auto is done in short bursts (6-10) rounds max because the body torques slighty to whatever side you hold the gun, even if the shooter is particularly solid and knows what to expect from the hardware.

If they are standing, that is true to some extent, if not, then it is for the simple reason that the barrel gets hot and melts during a sustained firing. Even mounted weapons, such as the cannons on fighters, fire in bursts for this reason.

what would be nice is an RPG element where the experience of the player can be transformed into various points that stabilize the gun easier or decrease recovery time after shots.... the only problem is how would you prevent people from hacking this element... I will tell you it would be hard if not dang near impossible....

It's easy to prevent people from hacking it. Simply don't impliment such a silly idea.

 

[Domox]

If you look at how you adapt to your situations and how you learn in RL you would realize the idea isnt so 'silly'.

 

[Crowze]

All learning and 'role playing' should be done by the player, not the game. If you learn how to snipe then you will probably be a good sniper. The only issue with that is there is precious little documentation on how to be a good sniper in Inf, but you can always ask .

 

[Nukeproof]

Actually, mild roleplaying stuff like BF2 does with bonus weapons, is at least good for longterm motivation.