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Recoil - let the experiments begin.

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by gal-z, Aug 10, 2005.

  1. Demosthanese

    Demosthanese .

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    KW, it's basic physics; if an impulse is applied off of the center of mass, the object will rotate in the direction of the impulse. In the case of INF Guy, it is a sharp impulse to the right shoulder, above and right of center mass. The center of mass will move backwards, away from the impulse with the right side moving away faster than the center, with the left side moving toward the impulse. As the center of mass moves back, INF Guy also pivots at the waste and leans back slightly. The result is the recoil will go up and to the right. As the traditional fighting stance has INF Guy leaning slightly forward, the upwardmovement is minimalised.
     
  2. Nukeproof

    Nukeproof n1

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    I understand, some things just don't turn out to be what they looked in theory. I fully trust you - you'll do an awesome implementation anyways :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2005
  3. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    That would be the case if a soldier was a rag doll or mannequin. But the soldier can expect this to happen and therefore compensate for the recoil trying to twist his torso.

    I would think that if a soldier saw his shots always going up and right, then he would correct this by bracing against it. Therefore, the recoil wouldn't always go up and to the right.
     
  4. Demosthanese

    Demosthanese .

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    In INF, that would be simulated by the player moving the mouse.
     
  5. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    Went shooting yesterday with my car-15, and noticed once again that in standing and crouch it will ALWAYS recoil right+up.
    The attached images show about where it recoiled to (where the 2nd shot was fired to, sort of), in standing and crouch positions with my car-15. Notice that with crouch it goes a bit less up, probably since the elbow is leaning on the knee. We've seen it in prone with the M16A1 in full auto that it barely goes up since both elbows are on the ground. Also we notice greater recoil with the car-15, and I can guess that the reason for it is the lighter weight of the weapon (about 2/3 of an M16A1).
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    Nice, go on with your tests :D.

    It is known that full sized rifles have less recoil than their carabine counterparts. Due to a shorter and mostly lighter barrel (which creates a total weight loss) thw weapon recoils more. It is the case with all weapons, G36vsG36K, M16A2/3/4vsM4A1, SIG550vsSIG551, AKMvsAKMSU, MP5A2vsMP5K, Mk23vsUSP45. :D

    Thats why I would like to have most rifles in both (or more) variations. I would love to use the G36 with more accuraccy on larg maps and a G36K with less weight and size in CQB.

    When you run forward (+walk) how the recoil behaves (could be a problem for you to test.. just risk it :p ).
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2005
  7. Conglomera

    Conglomera Proud Toilet Cleaner

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  8. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    What range is that? What is the size of the target? and why didn't you fire the second shot to make sure where it would hit? Keep it up gal-z, RL experiments should be a big help to the INF devs both on the team and in the community.
     
  9. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    range is 25m, target is a man 35cm wide I think.
     
  10. MP_Lord_Kee

    MP_Lord_Kee New Member

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    The pics you posted gal-z are very consistant with my own experience of recoil. On full auto with Rk 62 (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as43-e.htm) from aprox. 25m range, only first couple of shots hit the target and due to recoil it goes upwards and to the right. Easier to control recoil if hipped compared to shouldered but less accurate unless you got tracers. First shot is always off target hipped unless you are very lucky. Interestingly with tracers in the mix, single shots hipped becomes surprisingly easy, 2-3 shots to hit a 10 cm diameter stationary target from approx 25m...
    On the other hand, if you don't hit and kill with your first shot it becomes a moot point if the next rounds fired are of any big importance...

    //K
     
  11. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    Under ~15-25m it isn't a must to hit with your first shot. SF units in the IDF are taught to fire rapidly without using sights (with weapon shouldered) and have very good groupings - at 8-12m they hit with most of their shots inside of a circle with a radius of only a few CMs, and ALL shots hit the A4 page the circle is printed on.
     
  12. Harrm

    Harrm I am watching porns.

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    I dont think this up-and-to-the-right applies to pistols, does it? My .22 sets in a pretty tight circle when fired (the offset is rarely more than an inch). The .38 too. The .44...well...let's just say there's never any need for a second shot.

    As far as rifles go, my experience definately agrees with up-and-to-the-right, but I'm a pretty poor shot with a rifle anyhow, so that's not saying much. But I noticed my friends' father (who is left-handed and fires left sided...somehow) had a tendancy to let his shots drift almost straight up. Is this indicative of all left handed shooters?

    --Harrm
     
  13. -Freshmeat

    -Freshmeat Eternally noob

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    If anybody are able to get a digital video of them shooting, I would be VERY happy to analyze the videos to get an idea of the angular displacement per shot. It can probably be done with any digital camera that has opportunity for digital video, as long as it shoots at least 20 frames per second.

    If anybody are interested, the videos should be shot with the camera on a stand, zooming to show the weapon only, so I can get as many pixels as possible to work with. A measure af the particular weapons overall length would be necessary as well to get a reference.

    -Freshmeat (Teaching high school physics for a living)
     
  14. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    You already know the angular displacement. He told us the range and target size. That's all you need. For a high school physics teacher, your trig isn't so hot :p

    Now we just need the same thing for all the other weapons from every possible posture.

    *looks @ gal-z......... well what are you waiting for get crackin! :D :p


    Edit: Gal-z, what is the height of the target? Both the torso box and head. Or maybe you could just measure the vertical and horizontal distance from the first and second red dots for us. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2005
  15. jayhova

    jayhova Don't hate me because I'm pretty

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    I have something of a question here. I envision recoil having a number of effects on the shooter. First and formost is the tendency to push the shooter back this has the added effect of rotating the shooter to the right and upward. However this motion is somewhat limited by the position and stability of the shooter. One of the other effects of recoil is not at all simulated in INF is the violent change in the position of the shooters head. one of the reasons it is so hard to judge where to aim your weapon after the first shot is that you head is being jarred by the repeated buffeting of a weapon against your shoulder. This would be like trying to aim while someone is skaking you by the shoulder. Of course the fact that the weapon tends to buck around as well couldn't help.

    On a completely different tack, one of the things that has always disturbed me about INF is that fact that the things that should move (as you move do to walking breathing etc.) don't and the things that shouldn't move do. When holding a rifle the most stable part of the weapon is the stock. Why is it then that this is the part that moves the most in INF? The other part that bounces around is your head. I don't care how tired you are or how much your pack weighs peoples heads don't bob like ballons in a breeze. If you are breathing hard the thing that will most move is your chest arms and shoulders and anything attached to them. I so hate seeing everything near me bobbing around like I am standing on a boat.
     
  16. -Freshmeat

    -Freshmeat Eternally noob

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    @KW: Sure, the displacement of Gal-Z's second shot could be calculated. It is a good place to start. However, it does not take into account all adjustments Gal-Z might have made more or less unconsciously. A movie would be a lot more reliable information. Further, it would be nice if other persons would join in as well.

    -Freshmeat
     
  17. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    Yeah, the community should work for their favorite mod.
     
  18. Nukeproof

    Nukeproof n1

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    I think that's were RAv3 looked a lot better. I'm really keen on testing INF-HL2...
     
  19. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    Well my pictures aren't too accurate. After all they're from memory and the second shot was fast so it could've been a bit off of where I thought it was aiming, but definately not much. The target I used is actually a full body, I just cut it since I only aimed at the upper body part, but you can still *estimate* the offset.
    Making accurate measurements or videoing myself isn't a practical option for me, at least ATM. It's hard enough to convince certain people to let me shoot :p
     
  20. Gnam

    Gnam Member

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    Aaah. OK, I was wondering about that. I was experimenting with recoil in Halo a few weeks ago, and got the exact same effect as Inf; point of aim is istantly "teleported" straight up to the amount specified. By far, I think the most aparent effect of this discrency from real life is that a weapon will land the same auto grouping regardless of the the rate of fire. In other words, in real life, faster ROF's tend to produce tighter grouping on short bursts, because the 2nd and 3rd shot fire before the recoil of the 1st and 2nd round have ran their full course (the AN-94 is supposed to have such a high ROF in burst mode that it can potentially land 2 shots in the same hole at long range). The off shoot is that the recoil does catch up to you eventually, causing greater innacuracy at sustained bursts, and potentially delaying the time it would take to line up a 2nd burst (compaired to weapons with lower ROFs). Lower ROF weapons generally shoot bursts with wider groupings, because the successive shots fire after the recoil of previous shots had taken full effect on your point of aim. However, lower ROF's are easier to control in sustained fire.

    In the Halo mod I rigged up, and, I assume in Infiltration, burst/auto grouping will be the same regardless of ROF because the effect on your point of aim is instantaneous. There is no way the shots could out-pace the effect of recoil on at any rate of fire. Weapons like the FAMAS with an ROF of aproximately 1000rpm should shoot tighter 3-round-bursts than other 5.56mm weapons of the same weight that shoot at 700-800rpm, but the difference is probably not existant in Infiltration, unless the programmers acheived it artificially (by lowering the overall recoil impulse).
     

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