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Recoil - let the experiments begin.

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by gal-z, Aug 10, 2005.

  1. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    Recoil in INF seems very unrealistic to me. It may be way better than any other game out there, but needs a lot of work. The only weapons I have good experience with are M-16, car-15, M4A1 with trijicon 4x and a haris bipod and M-24. I have some minimal experience with IMI negev (almost the same as the minimi) and the FN mag.
    Right now in game it is too difficult to hip shoot with the minimi imo and too easy to shoot rapidly or full-auto with 5.56 when standing, yet a BIT too hard when moving.
    So I started experimentig with what I can, and got results for 2 positions:
    Crouch, 4 rounds, almost as rapid as full auto (the officer thought I was using full auto and made me stop shooting). Prone, 5 rounds, full auto.
    Note the differnece where in crouch it went mostly to the right and a bit up while in prone it went mostly to the left and very little up. Probably because in crouch your right side of the body can be pushed back while in prone the stock slightly slides to the right so the barrel points more to the left. Those reasons are just a theory though. I'm a right handed shooter and was focused mostly on aiming the first shot and barely focused on handling recoil (since it's the first time I was testing very raid/auto fire when actually aiming the sights). Targets were at 25m.
    Main conclusion you can see here is that recoil affects way more to the left/right and can go completely off to the other side in a different position.
    Also when zeroing my M4A1 with bipod and trijicon 4x a while ago, every shot made it go way to the left as well, so it's possible that in prone as a rule the recoil will make your weapon turn to the left.
    With M-24 I can't really talk much about recoil because I didn't really cared about it when I fired, both because it's a bolt action, and that the recoil usually makes you blink because the scope gets kicked quite close to your eye and you're trained to reload immidiately after firing so you don't really get a chance to see the effect. I hope I'll have a chance to make experiments with M-24, but that probably won't happen. With M-16 and car-15 I should be able to experiment sometime in the future, and maybe even with a reflex sight (ITL MARS, Meprolight and or Elbit falcon reflex sight) to see how they work when firing rapidly (had a chance to play around with them, just not fired with them).
    Another unrelated recoil problem I found in game is that the M4A1 "jumps" way less than the M16A2, which makes absolutely no sense.

    I hope more people who can will make experiments to help make the reoil system in INF actually real and make people stop spraying full auto with minimal recoil.
     

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  2. Rostam

    Rostam PSN: Rostam_

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    Although I have no experience with firearms, I do think that recoil should be so much harder to control. If weapons would do more damage as well, then maybe covering fire would be more effective (right now covering fire means missing on purpose :p) and maybe there will be an actual use for semi - other than just being cool.
    Glad to see you've put some effort in this, it was informative for me atleast.
     
  3. zeep

    zeep :(

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    Interesting read. I have no real experience with those weapons myself but your findings make sense to me.
     
  4. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    As I know many people say, that recoils are never really straight up and differs like your position is.

    I´m not sure too, but when you aim a sight and fire, isn't it the case that the frontsight actually doesn't move up, but it looks like the frontsight moves down, due to the rearsight beeing closer to the eye and having more movement, so when the rearsight is recoiling back and slightly up they is the effect like the frontsight is moving down.
    Can you confirm this?
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2005
  5. Rostam

    Rostam PSN: Rostam_

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    Psych, you mean dis-aligning the sights due to recoil? That would work really well I reckon.
     
  6. Derelan

    Derelan Tracer Bullet

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    Recoil could be done better, definately needs to be way higher on the weapon pack guns regardless of realism :p

    Psychomorph's idea sounds pretty cool, its hard to keep a weapon perfectly aligned after firing.

    Unfortunately, recoil has to be unidirectional so we can control it in-game, but it would be neat to see weapons realistically moving directions other than up because of recoil.
     
  7. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    @Rostam & Derelan:
    You're right, but I think I mean something a bit different. I mean the way the weapon recoils. In most games you see the frontsight going more up, but doe to the rearsight is closer to the eye it has a 'larger' movement scale, so the frontsight should disappear downside during the recoil, but should recover after this a bit.
    Sure not 100%ly recovery, you need to realign it then.

    I cheked INF again and indeed the single shot recoil does work as I explained. It just recovers to straight.
     
  8. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    Recoil definately needs to go more to the right and left. Right now, it is straight up which allows you to easily walk your fire up through the target while spraying on full auto.

    We need a proper wound system before semi will be useful.
     
  9. Derelan

    Derelan Tracer Bullet

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    Well its not perfectly straight up, and most of us like to move the mouse down while firing, simulating the "hold your gun really tight"-anti-recoil.
     
  10. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    It's quite perfectly straight up, or at least unnoticeably close. Which is far from the way it is IRL.
    As for disaligning the sights, 5.56 recoil barely disalign the sights and it's natural to realign them. It is not natural, however, to aim left after the recoil offseted you to the right - you move it back as a reaction after you see where the recoil offseted you.
    As for animation of gun moving backwards, it moves backwards then back to normal real fast you can't notice it IRL as well. The only reason you know it happens is that when you're new to using the weapon or when the recoil is strong (like M-24) it often would make you blink as a natural response for something getting close to your eye in high speed :p
     
  11. Rostam

    Rostam PSN: Rostam_

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    Gal, I thought he meant exactly that the first time. After firing having the sights dis-aligned and re-aligned in a blink of an eye. Doesn't matter for semi auto, but it should make it a lot harder to put 30 bullets in a face while on full auto like some people do now :p
     
  12. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    What I totally agree on is to give single shot more advantages (without really making fullauto burst that uneffective).
    I like to use rifles on singleshot, it is done in real life (trained soldiers) and since weapons are lethal, fullauto is not that of an advantage it just suits more of a suppressing situation when you just spray at a undefined target.

    You know, even if they is a vest and the hit doesn't kill, the hit still affects the person. He recoils, fall, loose weapon control a bit all the variety of reactions on just a single hit.
    I know they is a shock element too when a person is not that affected by the hit, but that should go only for less serious areas of the body.


    Even if it sounds nasty, but beeing hit by a round should often create a situation where you are still alive, but weakened and disturbed so the guy just have to finish you. It's like you are alive, but as good as dead (with a slight chance to strike back of course).

    When it is a firefight on distance the weakened person have a chance to survive, since the guy can't easily shoot you a second time (if not a totally free area without cover of course).


    Sorry for slight off topic.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2005
  13. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    Realistic recoil should be the main thing that makes it impossible to do very good groupings with full auto.
    As for injuries, it should be a different thread, but I know some1 who got shot and the bullet hit his NV sight he had in his back pouch and it didn't penetrate (didn't even reach the lvl3 vest). If I get a chance to talk to him I'll try to get more information.
     
  14. Rostam

    Rostam PSN: Rostam_

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    Did it change direction and miss or did it stop all together? In any case, glad he didn't get hit :)
     
  15. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    It was stopped. It was a pretty well-placed shot in the top-center of his back, where the pouch is and the NV sight is held during daytime.
     
  16. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    gal-z how exactly an M4A1 behaves during fullauto (or other weapons like the tar, mitar)?
    How does it sway? How the sights behave?
     
  17. Eric220

    Eric220 New Member

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    I too suggest the recoil on Auto/Burst weapons should be harder so noobs don't spray you. But I'm VERY amazed with the Robar effect with the sight aiming, that's beautiful.
     
  18. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    M16A1 fullauto is the 2nd picture (and 1st picture is semi but very fast almost like fullauto). I didn't fire M4A1 in fullauto, but unless the different flash hider has a significant effect, it should be quite the same. If the effect IS noticeable, it will rise up less but left/right movement will be the same.
     
  19. Eric220

    Eric220 New Member

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    IMO if you waste a 30 round clip at the wall it SHOULD look something like this:

    T
     
  20. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    Infiltration uses an instant displacement for it's recoil. It is for this reason I suspect that the recoil was made linear, as random displacements of any significant scale are quite disconcerting, especially at the edges of the freeaim extents.

    As an example of nonlinear recoil, try firing 75 or more consecutive (without letting go of the trigger) shots through the SAW. Standing and walking around for extra fun. The left/right motions will make it difficult to even walk straight.

    Of course, using just displacement for recoil is quite simple, too simple really. Why use algebra when calculus is more fun?
     

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