Beppo
Infiltration Lead-Programmer
...see current INF...Hurin said:
no way... center of screen = crosshair ... free aim like it is at hip at the moment...Hurin said:
Psychomorph`s Idea for INF
- Thread starter Psychomorph
- Start date
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Freeaim is the best, the gun is shooting where the barrel is pointing at, but I would prefer a limited freeaim overall.
For example if you have a 45cm (in diagonal) monitor (sorry don´t know how to tell an in german called 19Zoll monitor
), you would have from the middle of the screen 1,5 cm radius freeaim zone (in INF it is horizontally 1,5, but not vertically), that would be realistic enough (I guess), like IRL it would be easy enough to shoot unaimed in close distances, but not to difficult to aim on larger distances.
You allready can aim (sense) in INF good enough from hip, but the limmited freeaim would be even easier and would better simulate if you "shoulder" the weapon and try to get accurate shots.
Because if you shoot unaimed IRL, you would try to reduce the natural freeaim as much as possible, to place the shots in the center of your natural view, due to natural 3D sight. (lol sorry to explain this in formal english is not easy for me).
For example if you have a 45cm (in diagonal) monitor (sorry don´t know how to tell an in german called 19Zoll monitor
), you would have from the middle of the screen 1,5 cm radius freeaim zone (in INF it is horizontally 1,5, but not vertically), that would be realistic enough (I guess), like IRL it would be easy enough to shoot unaimed in close distances, but not to difficult to aim on larger distances.You allready can aim (sense) in INF good enough from hip, but the limmited freeaim would be even easier and would better simulate if you "shoulder" the weapon and try to get accurate shots.
Because if you shoot unaimed IRL, you would try to reduce the natural freeaim as much as possible, to place the shots in the center of your natural view, due to natural 3D sight. (lol sorry to explain this in formal english is not easy for me).
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I think you shouldn't make aiming easier if your weapon is hipped. It's easy enough right now if you train it.
Btw. I think it's generally called 19" display, 19 inch
Btw. I think it's generally called 19" display, 19 inch
You re right, it shouldn´t be too easy, but I spoke more about shouldered no hipped. but it doesn´t really exist in INF, but as Beppo said, hipped is kinda shouldered at all
If we speak about RL, than it is more effective to shoot unaimed shouldered, than hipped, cuz you can sense better where you are pointing at.
Well I´m for realism, if it means better aiming while shouldered, than yes.
But if IRL it is easier to shoot unaimed, why all good trained ppls are shooting aimed? Even in CQB, cuz you can place the holes exact.
The big problem in games is, that in a game you do not care about spending bullets, in RL you respawn only at the beginning of the round, one time You would use IRL the sights more often than in a game. Also IRL you can place precise shots in the head or heart, which is not that easy in a game.
You can have a realistic game, but it is still not as realism is IRL.
In that case, I would make the use of ironsight more comfortable (but not easier than IRL), so activating the sights should be as IRL if you have the gun allready shouldered, that means 0.5 seconds (just lowering the head and closing one eye), the only work after that is pointing the front sight on the target. So no matter how realistic and easy unaimed shooting is, the use of ironsights should be better
@mat69:
Ah Yes, "Zoll" means "inch" in English, thx
If we speak about RL, than it is more effective to shoot unaimed shouldered, than hipped, cuz you can sense better where you are pointing at.
Well I´m for realism, if it means better aiming while shouldered, than yes.
But if IRL it is easier to shoot unaimed, why all good trained ppls are shooting aimed? Even in CQB, cuz you can place the holes exact.
The big problem in games is, that in a game you do not care about spending bullets, in RL you respawn only at the beginning of the round, one time
You would use IRL the sights more often than in a game. Also IRL you can place precise shots in the head or heart, which is not that easy in a game.You can have a realistic game, but it is still not as realism is IRL.
In that case, I would make the use of ironsight more comfortable (but not easier than IRL), so activating the sights should be as IRL if you have the gun allready shouldered, that means 0.5 seconds (just lowering the head and closing one eye), the only work after that is pointing the front sight on the target. So no matter how realistic and easy unaimed shooting is, the use of ironsights should be better
@mat69:
Ah Yes, "Zoll" means "inch" in English, thx
Beppo
Infiltration Lead-Programmer
The current free aim area is ok imo. Reducing its size would not allow you to ie track your target without the full view changing significantly. The free aim area allows you to look 'around' your weapon and choose the focus point you are looking at yourself. Same as IRL where you can quickly change your focus with your eyes and without the weapon or head moving at all. So limiting the area you can move the weapon in freely, is not something I personally would like to do.
[edit] .... the use of ironsights IS way better in INF as 'hipped/shouldered' ... in terms of accuracy of course[/edit]
[edit] .... the use of ironsights IS way better in INF as 'hipped/shouldered' ... in terms of accuracy of course[/edit]
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Ok, right, but in that case, aiming from shouldered (if the weapon actually looks like shouldered, see the pics of M16`s I´ve posted) would be much easier than the actual 1st person "hipped look like position". If the weapon is more straight pointed, you could sense better where you are aiming at with the same freeaim as in actual INF
[edit] And if shouldered aiming will be easier in INF as hipped, the ironsight should still stay better [/edit]
P.S. lol, I write a book and Beppo is answering with some words. Beppo, say if I start to get on your nerves.
[edit
] And if shouldered aiming will be easier in INF as hipped, the ironsight should still stay better [/edit]P.S. lol, I write a book and Beppo is answering with some words. Beppo, say if I start to get on your nerves
.
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What i meant by shoot at center of screen with reduced accuracy is that not only those the free aim keep you from knowing where you are shooting but there would a function the equivalent of weapon bob, might as well make it weapon bob on a grand scale severely reducing ur accuracy for anything outside of some probably 15 meters.
Beppo
Infiltration Lead-Programmer
Just don't change a working system, please.
If you make the weapons shoulderd AND make shooting that way easier AND make aiming faster everything would be more easy.
Why should I use the sights of the FAMAS if I can shoot pretty precise without them, being shouldered? I would only use the sights if an enemy is far away. Maybe it's realistic this way but I think it would result in spray an pray.
You allways can make something more realistic, but making something "realistic" can result in unrealistic efects. You don't lose your life if you are dieing, i.e. you won't move in reality that way as you do in INF right now. You won't ever cross a field if you are pretty sure that a sniper is aiming at it, you will use cover if someone is shooting at the direction you come from, but in INF most just try to move on and aren't killed that often.
In short I think making aiming easier (as it is maybe in reality) can result in pretty unrealistic effects.
If you make the weapons shoulderd AND make shooting that way easier AND make aiming faster everything would be more easy.
Why should I use the sights of the FAMAS if I can shoot pretty precise without them, being shouldered? I would only use the sights if an enemy is far away. Maybe it's realistic this way but I think it would result in spray an pray.
You allways can make something more realistic, but making something "realistic" can result in unrealistic efects. You don't lose your life if you are dieing, i.e. you won't move in reality that way as you do in INF right now. You won't ever cross a field if you are pretty sure that a sniper is aiming at it, you will use cover if someone is shooting at the direction you come from, but in INF most just try to move on and aren't killed that often.
In short I think making aiming easier (as it is maybe in reality) can result in pretty unrealistic effects.
Shooting from shouldered wouldn´t be easier, as I said only the more straight looking first person weapon model would give you little more comfort in "sensing" where you are "aiming" at.
As I also mentioned I personally would prefer to have no hipped or shouldered, but instantly the aimed (which includes shouldered as well). And if I said faster aiming, I ment getting into the aimed position from the low ready position. IRL it is very fast (depends on the weapon you use), the difficulty is in the aiming itself (especially on longer ranges). This "difficulty" you have with the breath (and maybe handshake?) in INF and if you hold the right mose key, it takes a little time to have the sights really straight, as IRL. So I think INF got most things that are realistic and it works fine.
And I think in INF, if you run over a place where a "good" trained sniper player is waiting, you are dead, so it is all kinda realistic in INF.
In INF, if you play ucarefully, you get hurt and are slow`n`lame (leaked time of fun), so I think you, as player, are afraid enough of uncarefully playing, same as real soldier are afraid of risking their life.
@Famas:
Yes, A little problem we all know
I would prefer only the aimed position in INF, cuz why you should shoot unaimed IRL if you can aim fast? Lets see it from that direction.
I that case, some would disagree and would like to have shouldered, or hipped. And since INF doesn´t restrict players from things that are possible IRL, but not often used (such as shouldered, or hipped), It could be implemented in the game as options.
Not so good Suggestion:
One Idea I wouldn`t prefer is to be in low ready and aim with the "right mouse key", but shoulder the gun if you press the "left mouse key".
If you are in one of the modes, you use the left key to shoot, the right key to decativate, or hold breath.
You could be able to switch from shouldered directly to the aimed if you push the right mouse key double, or from aimed to shouldered, if you press the right key and instantly the left key.
But I would prefer to shoot with the firekey no matter if you aim, or low ready (as gal-z said), that would display the realism in INF`s manner and would force you to be more carefully with your weapon.
Good Suggestion:
The suggestion I would prerfer is, to have the low ready/aimed as standart, but you could be able to toggle with a special key the aiming modes (aimed/shouldered and maybe hipped if you want). With the right mouse key you would use the current aiming mode.
The current aiming mode would be displayed in the hud. Maybe the aimed mode would have green typo (color), the shouldered orange (as less accurate) and the hipped red typo (as even more inaccurate).
Maybe it would be good, to have this toggle on the "mousewheel up", "mousewheel down" stuff, cuz than you could toggle better between the 3 modes. If you aim a rifle, you could use the "mousewheel down" to unaim the rifle, but hold it to the shoulder (shouldered) and again wheel mouse down, to hip it (with all the 1st person animations). Using wheel up would shoulder the gun and than aim it again.
Using the wheel in low ready would just define the weapon aim mode you will have if you press the right mose key.
That would be awesome in using the acog assaultrifles. you could define with the mouse wheel your personal aiming position and could be able to use the rifle shouldered. From the shouldered you easily could be able to aim through the acog scope (using wheel up) and that would take even less time than to lift the weapon from low ready and aim the scope.
If you choose the aimed mode (as me), for comfort sake you would just use the right mouse key as in actual INF to aim, or low ready the gun.
On that point I have to point out, that it is even in the hipped mode difficult to hold the rifle straight for a longer time without to get tired arms, so for realism sake, you would need the low ready position even if you hip the gun.
As I also mentioned I personally would prefer to have no hipped or shouldered, but instantly the aimed (which includes shouldered as well). And if I said faster aiming, I ment getting into the aimed position from the low ready position. IRL it is very fast (depends on the weapon you use), the difficulty is in the aiming itself (especially on longer ranges). This "difficulty" you have with the breath (and maybe handshake?) in INF and if you hold the right mose key, it takes a little time to have the sights really straight, as IRL. So I think INF got most things that are realistic and it works fine.
And I think in INF, if you run over a place where a "good" trained sniper player is waiting, you are dead, so it is all kinda realistic in INF.
In INF, if you play ucarefully, you get hurt and are slow`n`lame (leaked time of fun), so I think you, as player, are afraid enough of uncarefully playing, same as real soldier are afraid of risking their life.
@Famas:
Yes, A little problem we all know
I would prefer only the aimed position in INF, cuz why you should shoot unaimed IRL if you can aim fast? Lets see it from that direction.
I that case, some would disagree and would like to have shouldered, or hipped. And since INF doesn´t restrict players from things that are possible IRL, but not often used (such as shouldered, or hipped), It could be implemented in the game as options.
Not so good Suggestion:
One Idea I wouldn`t prefer is to be in low ready and aim with the "right mouse key", but shoulder the gun if you press the "left mouse key".
If you are in one of the modes, you use the left key to shoot, the right key to decativate, or hold breath.
You could be able to switch from shouldered directly to the aimed if you push the right mouse key double, or from aimed to shouldered, if you press the right key and instantly the left key.
But I would prefer to shoot with the firekey no matter if you aim, or low ready (as gal-z said), that would display the realism in INF`s manner and would force you to be more carefully with your weapon.
Good Suggestion:
The suggestion I would prerfer is, to have the low ready/aimed as standart, but you could be able to toggle with a special key the aiming modes (aimed/shouldered and maybe hipped if you want). With the right mouse key you would use the current aiming mode.
The current aiming mode would be displayed in the hud. Maybe the aimed mode would have green typo (color), the shouldered orange (as less accurate) and the hipped red typo (as even more inaccurate).
Maybe it would be good, to have this toggle on the "mousewheel up", "mousewheel down" stuff, cuz than you could toggle better between the 3 modes. If you aim a rifle, you could use the "mousewheel down" to unaim the rifle, but hold it to the shoulder (shouldered) and again wheel mouse down, to hip it (with all the 1st person animations). Using wheel up would shoulder the gun and than aim it again.
Using the wheel in low ready would just define the weapon aim mode you will have if you press the right mose key.
That would be awesome in using the acog assaultrifles. you could define with the mouse wheel your personal aiming position and could be able to use the rifle shouldered. From the shouldered you easily could be able to aim through the acog scope (using wheel up) and that would take even less time than to lift the weapon from low ready and aim the scope
.If you choose the aimed mode (as me), for comfort sake you would just use the right mouse key as in actual INF to aim, or low ready the gun.
On that point I have to point out, that it is even in the hipped mode difficult to hold the rifle straight for a longer time without to get tired arms, so for realism sake, you would need the low ready position even if you hip the gun
.
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Nice idea with the mousewheel, but I would still like the right mouse button to raise/lower the sights. Mousewheel should only choose if when unaimed u use hipped or shouldered (and maybe even add a "sideways" mode for super-fast sprints (running for cover or from nades) and moving around in non-dangerous areas, though it's not something important to have in inf).
Beppo, I understand your point of not wanting to reduce the freeaim zone, but on the other hand, the point of shouldering the rifle is to at least try to have it pointed where your eyes are looking.
Beppo, I understand your point of not wanting to reduce the freeaim zone, but on the other hand, the point of shouldering the rifle is to at least try to have it pointed where your eyes are looking.
@gal-z:
But the low ready (sideways) is RL. IRL you have the gun always low, you raise it fast, or in direct danger situations you have it shouldered (aimed). But you never see soldiers have the gun in high position the whole time, even if they are in battle. Your arms will get tired also in hipped. So you need the low position to be able to jog with lower stamina reduction, to move inside very close surroundings.
If you want to turn yourself, but you stand between two walls (or whatever), your weapon would crash, or you have to look down. In the actual hipped you see the weapon moving closer to your view, so you can move around those obstacles, but sometimes the weapon is too long, or you stand to close to the obstacle.
I think low ready is something INF has to go for, cuz it is reallife and is as easy to implement in the game as every other thing, maybe easier, due to the simpler 1st person animation.
IRL you see doing all that everytime. How it will be implemented (if it will be), than the devs will see how. It can be my way, it can be any other way.
@freeaim:
Kinda yes, IRL you rather turn your body if you aim, or point a gun, to keep the shouldered position comfortable (IRL it is harder to move around the gun and keep the weapon that straight as in INF).
But INF has the best solution to make guns inaccurate during unaimed use as in any other game.
You said you follow with your eyes the weapon if you want to point it somewhere you are looking at, but that is exactly the case in INF, the view (screen) is more of your head, or torso. Your real eyes are the eyes ingame, you look with your real eyes at something on the screen and move the mouse (weapon), to point the gun toward that target.
My personal critizism in the freeaim is mostly, that if you aim the weapon you would rather move your whole torso to stay on the target, but it is not that important.
But the low ready (sideways) is RL
. IRL you have the gun always low, you raise it fast, or in direct danger situations you have it shouldered (aimed). But you never see soldiers have the gun in high position the whole time, even if they are in battle. Your arms will get tired also in hipped. So you need the low position to be able to jog with lower stamina reduction, to move inside very close surroundings.If you want to turn yourself, but you stand between two walls (or whatever), your weapon would crash, or you have to look down. In the actual hipped you see the weapon moving closer to your view, so you can move around those obstacles, but sometimes the weapon is too long, or you stand to close to the obstacle.
I think low ready is something INF has to go for, cuz it is reallife and is as easy to implement in the game as every other thing, maybe easier, due to the simpler 1st person animation.
IRL you see doing all that everytime. How it will be implemented (if it will be), than the devs will see how. It can be my way, it can be any other way.
@freeaim:
Kinda yes, IRL you rather turn your body if you aim, or point a gun, to keep the shouldered position comfortable (IRL it is harder to move around the gun and keep the weapon that straight as in INF).
But INF has the best solution to make guns inaccurate during unaimed use as in any other game.
You said you follow with your eyes the weapon if you want to point it somewhere you are looking at, but that is exactly the case in INF, the view (screen) is more of your head, or torso. Your real eyes are the eyes ingame, you look with your real eyes at something on the screen and move the mouse (weapon), to point the gun toward that target.
My personal critizism in the freeaim is mostly, that if you aim the weapon you would rather move your whole torso to stay on the target, but it is not that important.
Beppo
Infiltration Lead-Programmer
Well you do. Your hands/arms and shoulders do rotate and this means that your upper torso is rotating too. The feet and legs do 'follow' if you hit the freeaim limit and start to rotate further. You do not aim just with your hands/arms without moving the upper torso... not even for pistols in RL. The hands/arms and shoulders form a steady system that does not tilt or twist while you swing from the left to the right.Psychomorph said:
All good points and interesting (and for once civilized). First of all, I love the current way the aiming and freeaim is implemented. It all seems fluid, realistic, somewhat challenging and rewarding once you get your skills honed to a sertain level.
I would argue one point made though. Hipped shots at short/medium range in RL are easier to make (and sertainly have a more "natural feel to it") than unaimed shots fired from the shoulder. (with unaimed I mean not using the sights).
Also, when hipped it is much easier to control automatic fire than if shouldered.
Anyway, that is how I remember it beeing (not in active duty anymore) and your milage may vary depending on weapon used and training.
Whatever you do, please don't ruin the experience with some forced cone fire implementation :/ What I love most about inf is that your bullets hits where you aim, everytime.
//Kee
I would argue one point made though. Hipped shots at short/medium range in RL are easier to make (and sertainly have a more "natural feel to it") than unaimed shots fired from the shoulder. (with unaimed I mean not using the sights).
Also, when hipped it is much easier to control automatic fire than if shouldered.
Anyway, that is how I remember it beeing (not in active duty anymore) and your milage may vary depending on weapon used and training.
Whatever you do, please don't ruin the experience with some forced cone fire implementation :/ What I love most about inf is that your bullets hits where you aim, everytime.
//Kee
Yeah that's basically what INF is all about, I doubt anyone ever even thought of changing that.
Anyway, you do have a better chance to hit first shot firing shouldered VS aimed.
Ah, that explains why you have the sights straight when you move (the freeaim). I thought it was ment more of the free moving of the arms, but that would drop the accurassy and weapon steady.Beppo said:
What about hipped then? Do you move the torso too, or in that case only the arms, because the buttstock is not forced to enything?
I would say it is just a part of what INF is all aboutgal-z said:
Beppo
Infiltration Lead-Programmer
Well at hip it is a mix and highly depends on how 'strong' you are and which weapon you are firing or holding, if we talk about RL.
For MPs and pistols you would normally move the arms/shoulders a bit. Maybe even only the left arm to control the 'aiming'. Easy to 'spray' this way. But if you want to fire 'steady' shots from the hip position then you again form up a more or less steady system out of your arms/shoulders and the weapon that only moves minimal on the pure arms axis and would normally be done by slightly rotating your torso with the whole thing. The hip position is way more flexible then the aimed or shouldered position cause you can easily use both rotation methods in combination. For small changes in your aim you only need to move your left arm slightly whereas in aimed position you would definetly start to rotate your torso too.
For MPs and pistols you would normally move the arms/shoulders a bit. Maybe even only the left arm to control the 'aiming'. Easy to 'spray' this way. But if you want to fire 'steady' shots from the hip position then you again form up a more or less steady system out of your arms/shoulders and the weapon that only moves minimal on the pure arms axis and would normally be done by slightly rotating your torso with the whole thing. The hip position is way more flexible then the aimed or shouldered position cause you can easily use both rotation methods in combination. For small changes in your aim you only need to move your left arm slightly whereas in aimed position you would definetly start to rotate your torso too.
Stamina!
Since I´m mostly with an II Vest around, I dont dare to run while aiming, cuz than you can prepare yourself for a long walk, lol.
Shouldn´t the run do not make that tired while aiming? I mean the tireness is more for your body, but the arms should have their own stamina (kinda accurassy bar), so the longer you hold the gun straight (even hipped), your arms should get tired, but not your body.
So if you run aimed it should definitely makes you more tired, than for example in low ready, but not that hard as in actual INF.
1) If you run in a neutral weapon position like low ready it should makes you tired very slowly (if you run without to make some stops).
- Means, the more you make pauses between the runs, the faster your stamina refills and you stay quick.
- Running without pauses makes you slowly tired and when you are very down and your stamina is low, it refills the normal way (means slowly).
2) If you run aimed, shouldered, even hipped your stamina behaves like described in point 1, only that the stamina loose is little increased, but you also have the weapon accurassy/arm stamina loose!
3) If you walk in low ready you have no stamina loss.
If you walk aimed, shouldered, or hipped, you have no stamina loss, but the accurassy/arm stamina loss.
I´m sure you have some things in mind for the next version, like with everything else in INF, but I think it should be that way, or similar.
Since I´m mostly with an II Vest around, I dont dare to run while aiming, cuz than you can prepare yourself for a long walk, lol.
Shouldn´t the run do not make that tired while aiming? I mean the tireness is more for your body, but the arms should have their own stamina (kinda accurassy bar), so the longer you hold the gun straight (even hipped), your arms should get tired, but not your body.
So if you run aimed it should definitely makes you more tired, than for example in low ready, but not that hard as in actual INF.
1) If you run in a neutral weapon position like low ready it should makes you tired very slowly (if you run without to make some stops).
- Means, the more you make pauses between the runs, the faster your stamina refills and you stay quick.
- Running without pauses makes you slowly tired and when you are very down and your stamina is low, it refills the normal way (means slowly).
2) If you run aimed, shouldered, even hipped your stamina behaves like described in point 1, only that the stamina loose is little increased, but you also have the weapon accurassy/arm stamina loose!
3) If you walk in low ready you have no stamina loss.
If you walk aimed, shouldered, or hipped, you have no stamina loss, but the accurassy/arm stamina loss.
I´m sure you have some things in mind for the next version, like with everything else in INF, but I think it should be that way, or similar.
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![Cleeus[JgKdo]](/data/avatars/s/30/30543.jpg?1424422840){kind=avatar}
@beppo:
What i am trying to say is that if you are in lowready/normal mode and you try to shoot, the weapon will raise and shoot for as long as you hold the button then go back down to the lowready/normal mode. This would be diffrent from lowready/fire mode by the fact that it would be harder to tell where your weapon points and weapon bob would be much greater, I am not sure of a numerical figure yet.
I posted on this other idea on a diffrent thread and would like to bring it over here in case that psychomorph ever makes this idea in to reality and i hope you do.
FAlling- The person falling down the stairs and a person being below them. THe person falling almost always kill the person below. Such a scenario has been reapeted by me on both sides multiple times.
What makes a tactic such as this impossible in real life: if you fall on stairs your footing is likely to be disloged keeping you from aiming(they are stairs after all).
FAlling a distance of over 7(2 meters) or so feet is likely to make the gun slip from your shoulder. So maybe to fight this unfair tactic make all falls over 2 meters (about 7-8 feeet) take you out of aim mode into readyfire mode and all falls over 3 metters put you into normal mode. And offcourse keep the current modifiers which make one crouch or go prone for especially large falls.
-SkillZ
What i am trying to say is that if you are in lowready/normal mode and you try to shoot, the weapon will raise and shoot for as long as you hold the button then go back down to the lowready/normal mode. This would be diffrent from lowready/fire mode by the fact that it would be harder to tell where your weapon points and weapon bob would be much greater, I am not sure of a numerical figure yet.
I posted on this other idea on a diffrent thread and would like to bring it over here in case that psychomorph ever makes this idea in to reality and i hope you do.
FAlling- The person falling down the stairs and a person being below them. THe person falling almost always kill the person below. Such a scenario has been reapeted by me on both sides multiple times.
What makes a tactic such as this impossible in real life: if you fall on stairs your footing is likely to be disloged keeping you from aiming(they are stairs after all).
FAlling a distance of over 7(2 meters) or so feet is likely to make the gun slip from your shoulder. So maybe to fight this unfair tactic make all falls over 2 meters (about 7-8 feeet) take you out of aim mode into readyfire mode and all falls over 3 metters put you into normal mode. And offcourse keep the current modifiers which make one crouch or go prone for especially large falls.
-SkillZ