Psychomorph`s Idea for INF

[Beppo]

Your last pics (and the diagrams before did that too already) show the system we (or at least I and some other team members) have in mind for quite some time too. As said earlier, we had a 'low-ready' position implemented already that needed other 3rd person anims and some other changes and so was discarded later on. The system we have in mind will take this all even a bit further (if possible with the engine).

To the slight zooming while controling your breathing... well the INF AimView mutator does this already and can be found on the Mutators, Camos, Speechpacks... thread for the case you missed it.

 

[Psychomorph]

Posted by Beppo:
The system we have in mind will take this all even a bit further (if possible with the engine).

Ahh, that sounds great, and "a bit further" sounds even better.

To the slight zooming while controling your breathing... well the INF AimView mutator does this already.

Yes, that´s nice. Even if they were no zoom, the weapon sight dimension is good enough. Very comfortable to aim. Now, we need better weapon models and all is good.


I´m very interessted how you, or the others, as developers think about the movement suggestions I´ve made. Sure you like the 2.9 movement better, cuz you worked that out. But I think, that your movement in combat also depends on how you hold your weapon. And that is what my Suggestion is about, the movement was the general part. I think it is realistic enough and comfortable as I think.

I repeat:
Walking is standart. Holding the "run key" while in low ready, you sprint. Holding the "run key" while aiming, you just run.
Same with crouch, in low ready you kinda sprint, slower, but crouched. If you aim, you move just faster.


I think that is very comfortable, cuz you have just one key to hold, and operatiog the rifle (low ready, aim) is very easy and you do it during the game often enough, to handle this system fast and precisely.

 

[Beppo]

There are two ways:
a) player can do any action he/she likes at any given time. This resulting in specific things that happen. Ie. the weapon will go down to hip, scope view ends, extra stamina hit aso.
b) player is restricted in his/her actions based on the current movement and aim mode.

INF is more the type a) atm but has elements from type b) too.
Your version is more type b) with a bunch of restrictions that do work as games like CoD show.
A mix of both would be the thing I would prefer. This has to be looked at during the development what will work best in specific situations.

 

[Psychomorph]

I understand that, I thought about that too. I thought your arguments would be (they are) like "if you are in low ready, you are forced to sprint, but can´t run as while aiming", or "holding the run key to run is bad".

My argument is, that if you run while aiming, you do it exactly because you are aiming, if you would not aim (low ready), why you should have the slow run? Wouldn´t you rather run fast (sprint, or something)?
I know, that in RL you are able to aim, or shoulder the weapon and sprint as HELL! All possible IRL, but it is something you never see real soldier are doing, cuz it makes no sense. It is more comfortable to low ready the gun.
That means, the slower run is just for aiming sake, to be able to aim accurate, but not to run fast (that´s why I called it fast movement during combat).
The sprinting while low ready is just kinda standart "fast" run as soldiers do that often. It´s not f***in fast, but fast enough.


On the other hand, the INF has simmilar movability as AA (sorry for the comparison).
You have walk/run and sprint. In AA I have absolutely no preb to handle this, but cuz it was aiming as a separate option where you move slow.
In INF you have the walk/run option double (hip and aim), maybe that`s why it is not as comfortable as in AA.


Lets make a shema:

My Idea:
[...........Aim]---walk-----------run
[hold breath]-walk
[.Low Ready]-----walk---------------sprint (run fast)

INF:
[...........Aim]---walk-----------run--------sprint
[............Hip]---walk-----------run--------sprint


AA:O:
[..........Aim]-walk-------------------sprint
[Shouldered]---walk-----------run---sprint


What we see. The INF sprint is faster than AA:O, or My Idea, but eats more stamina.
If you compare My Idea and INF you see that INF got walk (hip/aim) the same, also the sprint, during both moving modes is possible.

My Idea is to make Walk standart, cuz it is most used in battles, you run only if needed (that´s why I like the Rainbow Six movability, only sprint leaks).
Run is due to aim slower, but in Low-Ready it is much faster (as I said, why slow run if you can fast).
My System (I don´t call it perfect, or better than INF!) depends on your weapon:
- While Aim, you are slow, but accurate and concentrated. You are more silent too, cuz it is a combat mode and you lean reduced.
- While Low Ready, you walk fast (maybe you can make it a slow run?), you run fast (sprint) and you lean wide (cuz you don´t need to hold any weapon stability).

Why hold run key?
I prefer the hold run key cuz you can control your movement better (I noticed that during many games), you are more aware of how your movement is.

I played INF now (ít is great, I can´t say anything else), Map was ManorFarm (one of my favorites, Love CQB in buildings).
I aim, I walk. I plan to run some steps and walk again, to lean on the edge. So I have to push the run key two times (with hold run key you would just push and release when needed).
Than, I run over the place and have to sprint. I push sprint, after the release, I run hipped, ok than just push right mose again to aim and run key to walk (if needed).

I imagine that with my system.
I aim and walk, I plan to run a bit to lean on the edge. I hold the run key and release that for walking, so I can move for better lean position.
Than I run over the place. I run holding the run key. I decide to sprint, the only thing I have to do is to push the right mose key, to disable aim (switch to low ready) and I sprint automatical.
After I leaved the place, I only have to push right mose key again and I run. If needed, release the run key, to be accurate, slow and silent.




All my suggestions could be made in a mutator (I guess. You should know it better), I would like, but I´m not able to make the “low ready” animation, I could try, but I don´t know how and so on. The changes would not be too hard. I also would change the weapon posture while aiming a little bit (closer to the view), like the 2.9 Famas, I think it is the most perfect weapon view in INF, especially if you aim with the AimView Mutator, I really enjoy using the famas and the animation if you change the fireing rate is great.


P.S. thx for reading, lol.

P.S.2 I´ve moved "Suggestion Nr.2" to the top, as final, sorry if other answers/posts makes less sense (if they make).

 

[-RoMe-infers]

Very good ideas psychomorph, really. I would love the shouldered way..
However we should be able to jump when weapon aimed, it should just bring the wepon back to the hip.

the zoom idea (when hold breath) is good too but should occurs in a very slightly way, not instantly cuz it would look strange to have suddenly the iron sight a bit bigger. And, when holding the breath, the weapon should keep freeaim but with reduced range.

Finally, the movement should be IMHO the same as in 2,9. It has been really well thought. (the "automatically sprinting when unaimed if you were running idea" would create a lot of confusion, movement system must be realistic but intuitive too)

ps: i hope 'intuitive' is english too,if not, 'instinctive' is maybe?

Last thing, the snipe should not be able to fire in shouldered position. If not it would became a sort of "oh yeaa! Unscope Headshot with AWP!" ala cs... I woudn't like that

 

[Anonymous_[FOOL]]

I would like to keep the "run" speed of movement for the low ready position; although it moght not be done in real life, jogging is a nice alternative to sprinting if you know there's no enemy around and yet do not want to waste too much stamina!

 

[Beppo]

Jogging needs to stay in for shouldered due to the stamina usage. It makes perfect sense to have the weapon in the shouldered position and to jog at the same time. Aiming blocks your view and so shouldered or low-ready would be the only options I have to 'see' a bit more of the screen... and while doing so i just don't want to sprint my ass off... I want to jog and not walk in many situations. In addition a hold key is always something that is pretty impractical if you need to hold it for more than just a second. One finger would be tied to a key during the whole time you jog around. Same goes for prone crawling and crouching and for aiming your weapon... I cannot understand the folks that still use this stuff as hold keys cause it really starts to hurt if you play more than just a few minutes (ask your doc, he will tell you that a constant pressure will not be good for your knuckles). So hold keys/buttons should only be something you use for actions that are used not so often, not for long durations and for actions that simulate an interaction with in game objects to 'lock' one finger to actually do something (ie laptop usage, pickups and doors aso).

But we have another design for 'speeds' already in mind, so no need to discuss the number of possible movement speeds or number of keys needed for this here.

 

[Psychomorph]

Posted by Beppo:
and while doing so i just don't want to sprint my ass off...

I agree on that.

In addition a hold key is always something that is pretty impractical

Also agree on that, for crouch and so on, in that case also for running.
But the point, why I talked about hold run key is, cuz running is in RL also something you do often, but not very long. You do it in short stages, but never constant, because you never run pointles around (no matter how slow), like in most games (sadly also in INF). Mostly, you walk (in different walking speeds).

IRL you run, if you need to change your location, from cover to cover. You never run constant around, that´s why Walking is your absolutely standart, cuz walking is "no action" (only if you are really tired), but running and sprinting is an action, an action you do mostly in short impuses.

IRL you run, if you aim, or shoulder your weapon, sometimes you run while Low Ready, just because you don´t want to sprint, or spend your energy in sprinting outbursts (so I agree fully on the case you still need running while low ready).

IRL sprinting is something you can do while aiming, but makes only sense if you just hold your gun, no matter how (for professionals that means low ready). Sprinting is a very short, but fast action, like running, but you need in battle a very fast sprint, it saves lifes.



IRL, if swats and sodliers assault buildings, never run inside, never constant (only if they need to pass rooms fast without to expect enemies). They walk slow, or fast, but they walk (sometimes this fast walk looks like run, but is not really a run, it doesn´t matter for a game).
So, IF walk/... toggle, than walk/fast-walk toggle, that is IRL, but running is something you do in short (or longer) "bursts".


I have just an idea:
- If you aim, you toggle between slow walk (sneaking) and fast walk (assaulting). You have a separate holding "run/sprint" key which you use to run (the fastest move while aiming). You hold the key and it works as in INF, you start to run.
- If you are in low-ready, you toggle between normal walk and an easy/light/slow run (which is not a real run). If you hold the "sprint/run" key, you sprint fast (as in INF).


Maybe it is too complicated for the game, but it was just an idea I had during typing this post.
But what really botheres me is, that INF is still too fast, no I don´t mean the "speed" (soldier are able to run fast enough), but the fact, that everybody is jogging around, and that is not the case IRL.
Ok, you can say "let them jog, their stamina will show", but fact is, those players are successfull, cuz they surprise you often.
A lame game is definitely not what I want, but I want to redifine the moving stages a little bit.

I think to toggle to a fast walk, which I often saw swats and soldiers doing during near every combat situation constantly (if they don´t need to change cover fast, which needs run/sprint), would be a great thing.


- Sneaking while aiming would be a counterpart to low-ready normal walk.
- Fast walk while aiming would be the counterpart to the easy/light run while in low ready.
- Running while aiming would be the counterpart to sprinting while in low ready.

So I still think your speed depends on how you hold your weapon, that is exactly shown in a documantation I saw about US soldiers during a training in Iraq.
The trainer said: "If you guys assault a room, or/and move aimed, you should use a special way of walking" (which looks a little bit funny).
He continued: "You should hold the thighs (is it the right word for "Oberschenkel"?) tight, so you can walk fast, without to be forced to run, which is great for your accurasy. (that would determine the hard wobble while running, but be still much faster than walking).
So if you would run aimed, it would be a real counterpart to the sprint.


[...........aim]--1---2-----3
[hold-breath]--1
[..low-ready]---4----5------6

1: sneak
2: fast walk
3: run

4: normal walk
5: slow run (jog)
6: sprint

Posted by Anonymous[FOOL]:
I would like to keep the "run" speed of movement for the low ready position; although it moght not be done in real life, jogging is a nice alternative to sprinting if you know there's no enemy around and yet do not want to waste too much stamina!

Yup, as said above, I´m agreed with that.

Posted by Beppo:
But we have another design for 'speeds' already in mind, so no need to discuss the number of possible movement speeds or number of keys needed for this here.

Ohhh, plz tell, plz tell! I´m a concept whore, I want to know!

Posted by -RoMe- infers:
the zoom idea (when hold breath) is good too but should occurs in a very slightly way, not instantly cuz it would look strange to have suddenly the iron sight a bit bigger.

But if you close one eye instantly, so the "view change" appears instantly. You wouldn`t close the right (or left) eye slow (which would look slightly) if you need to aim.
Also the zoom should be very very little. In the AimView mutator I think the zoom is byfar to big, but the dimension of the weapon model is absolutely great (ever wished that). So I would suggest, to increase the weapon model dimension while aiming at all and to make the dimension while holding breath as it is in the AimView mutator. The zoom wouldn´t be that important, but the reduced freeaim and mouse sensitivity would be great for accurassy.

 

[Psychomorph]

Ok, I go on.


I find, it would be very useful to have a "looking key". What I mean is, if you crouch, but especially prone, your mouse sensitivity is very low (logical, limmited movability), but it would be quite useful to hold a key, where you can turn you head around, very fast. That option would just give you a chance to make some looks around.
Sometimes you don´t want to change your dirction, it is to lame to make a crawl turn, often you stuck with your weapon if you try to turn while prone, but the "look around" option would be godlike (if it doesn´t allready exist, than I have to wake up, lol).
I think it would be good, to use the "Use key" as that option. Cuz the use key is only in use if you open doors, windows, collect ammo`n`stuff, but in situations, where you need the look around option, it is not in use.



I´m not a full weapon expert, so it is more of a question:
I love how the scopes behave in INF (never was glad with it in all other games).
For example the spain is using the G36E as standart rifle, which has the scope, but byside just a weak ironsight.
Since the Acog doesn´t zoom that much I could imagine using the optic sight as a normal sight, also on near directions (hold the second eye opened would let you aim with the scope, but also would let you see the surronding).
In INF you have the acog as sniperclass and it is quite difficult to aim on close ranges, cuz if you move, it is jumping around to much.

My question is, is it in RL possible to use it as a normal sight, or is it IRL more of a snipertool, so I´m forced to snipe? Ok, ingame that would be maybe a balance problem, but I just want to know.



Theres also one thing, I find important:
You have a good freeim if you aim the weapon in INF, but if you crouch, I noticed the freeaim sensitivity is lower. The view turning speed should stay as low as it is, of cource, BUT the freeaim itself (only the movement of the weapon in the middle radius of the screen) should be as fast as while standing, because if you crouch, you have the same ability to aim the weapon (freeaim), only your body turning speed (the turn of the whole view) is more limmited.
While proning, also your freeaim is limmited, so it is good in the actual INF.

 

[Beppo]

The turning speed is based on the stance. While standing you can turn your view faster than while kneeling and again faster than while prone.
This simulates the turning in general, means your arm, shoulder and torso movement too. Not only the ability to rotate your body.
The freeaim has nothing that makes it special turn-speed-wise. The arms, shoulders and part of the torso needs to be rotated no matter if within the free aim area or not. And this is simply easier the more 'space' my arms do have (stance).

 

[Psychomorph]

That your view is turning slower while kneeling is logical, my point was only the turn of the weapon (freeaim). I thought the freeaim is not the turn of the body, but only of your arms and weapon. If you kneel, I find you can turn your arms and weapon as fast as while standing, only the turn of the whole view (which is your body) turns slower (which is logical as I said and should stay as it is).

But maybe I´m mistaken.

 

[gal-z]

It's possible to run at almost max speed with weapon shouldered and ready to fire.
I don't think firing should automatically raise the weapon, but rather you should be forced to raise the weapon before firing (or have it shoot the ground if u don't raise it).
You can shoot like in the attachment pretty accurately to 10-20m at a man target (accurately = good chance of first shot hitting) and somewhat accurately while running very fast (at 10-20 meters).
With lots of practice I suppose u can hit targets accurately at even longer ranges (30-50m) while standing.

 

[Beppo]

yeah it's like the old revolver shooting ... you automatically point with your trigger finger at the spot you are aiming at.
This can be trained to be even more accurate and you need a bit of training before it gets 'automatic' for rifles too due to the fact that you need both arms/hands work together. But 30-50m shots that should only hit a man height target somewhere in the upper torso area shouldn't be a problem this way while standing and even while walking slowly. The general direction would be pretty accurate and with a bit of training even the 'pitch' adjustment to hit a specific body height.

 

[Psychomorph]

Posted by gal_z:
It's possible to run at almost max speed with weapon shouldered and ready to fire.

Fully agreed. I also mentioned this often. So Maybe it would be good, to have in low ready and aimed the same movement speeds, so if you run fast (or sprint), you can do it with aimed weapon, but it would cost more stamina, so you have to disable the aim by yourself.

I don't think firing should automatically raise the weapon, but rather you should be forced to raise the weapon before firing (or have it shoot the ground if u don't raise it).

Also agreed, I would prefer to have not that automatical stuff, but you have to do it all by yourself. So if you want to aim, press a key.
I especially like the idea to fire to the ground if fireing in low ready, so you have to be more aware of what you doing with the weapon, like IRL.

You can shoot like in the attachment pretty accurately to 10-20m at a man target (accurately = good chance of first shot hitting) and somewhat accurately while running very fast (at 10-20 meters).
With lots of practice I suppose u can hit targets accurately at even longer ranges (30-50m) while standing.

It is likei n Americas Army, and i like it in that game, that you can shoot that good even if you run.
One guy I know, who served in army, said that americas army game got it the most right.
Well INF has that stuff too, but you are forced to aim. If you hip, the huge freeaim doesn´t allow that.

I ask myself it the devs are planning to implement that stuff in INF?


The funny thing is, I made a headshot today, with an semi MP5 on 10m disance, from hip. But I think in hipped (or shouldered as we actually say), you have too much freeaim, so it is near impossible to shoot accurate. The only thing that works in INF in that case is to shoot as fast as you can, IRL you would spend 1 or 2 bullets doing that.

I have 100 of suggestions I can´t post them all, but one of my thoughts were, to have the shouldered as in the picture.
Soldiers are able to look over the sight and shoot straight. Eith the real view you have both eyes opened, but you see the weapon with the right eye from the rear up and with the left eye you see the weapon on the right side. Both weaponviews are kinda transparent (cuz two different eye views). All in all you see two transparent weapons in one view, lol.
And I´m sure this kind of view can be done with new engines, the problem is it would look terrible.

A good way is to combine the two views to one (screen) and to define the logical posture/origin of the weapon, that would look more or less as on the pic I´ve posted!
That is not a real just shouldered posture, it is kinda semi aimed posture.

Maybe I have to go on with my original Idea and use the alt fire key to go from low-ready to this shouldered "semi aimed" thing and holding the alt key would close the left eye, so you look through the sight.

But to be able to use the semi aimed as effective as IRL, the freeaim should be limmited as possible and slower (the turning speed of the whole view should stay fast), to guarantee accurate shooting.

Aiming the sight with one eye should still have the freaim, but limmited, to be able to lower the weapon for greater fov (similar as in INF).



Ahh, damn it is so complicated, it is really hard to implement a very true to life aiming in a game.

 

[Beppo]

*snip*
It is likei n Americas Army, and i like it in that game, that you can shoot that good even if you run.
One guy I know, who served in army, said that americas army game got it the most right.
Well INF has that stuff too, but you are forced to aim. If you hip, the huge freeaim doesn´t allow that.

I ask myself it the devs are planning to implement that stuff in INF?

Try to hold your weapon steady while running... you aren't really that accurate. A fast walk or slow jog is ok. But not while running (fast jog, no sprint). It is enough for close targets and you are able to do so in INF too.
The freeaim area is not the thing that makes it harder 'at hip' (its actually the same as during aim). It is the harder weapon bobing and the harder recoil that makes it more difficult to shoot from 'the hip' in INF.

*snip*
The funny thing is, I made a headshot today, with an semi MP5 on 10m disance, from hip. But I think in hipped (or shouldered as we actually say), you have too much freeaim, so it is near impossible to shoot accurate. The only thing that works in INF in that case is to shoot as fast as you can, IRL you would spend 1 or 2 bullets doing that.

I guess you need much more training then
It is easy to fire very accurate shots from the hip while standing or moving slowly within INF. Sure you have no crosshair... but you have a weapon model that points towards where it is aiming and firing at.

 

[Psychomorph]

I definitely need more training in hip shooting, because I never use it only if thers a guy 6 meters away I spray from hip, but if they are 10m I aim if possible.

Well I ment you can fire very accurate without to use sights at all, the accurate if running was just to mention that you still fire forward (p.s. I like to diss pseudo realistic shooters like Raven Shield, if I say "but IRL the gun is still fireing forward" lol).

Aou are definitely aren´t that accurate while run, but fact is that you use a special way of running (or walking) if you aim and shoot (sure this method makes you move a little bit slower). You don´t run like a sportsman who is making huge leaps. You do many steps and many hintereinander, to keep bobbing low (that´s the special way of walking I spoke about some posts ago).
In INF, if you run, the bobbing seems to me like you do not use this special way of moving, but just run, that would be fully ok with low ready (cuz you do not need to aim), but aimed, or shouldered needs this method (I guess).



You see the weapon model, but how you can assume where it is aiming at? Ok, if you make some shots, or if you see the weapon not to hardo n the left side, or on the right, but if you aim (look) around, you weapon is moving around, you can`t keep it centered, like you would be able to do it IRL.
Sure training makes you better, but are you able to use that that effective as IRL?

 

[Beppo]

hintereinander = in a row

... the weapon model has its own axis if you look at it from the back to the muzzle... follow this line and you know where the shot ends up. Rifles are long and weapons using a suppressor are pretty long too. This makes a perfect 'aiming device' for 'hip'.
Go to the shooting range and do some 25 meter target practice this way. You need one or two shots to hit the target in the center area... with some minutes of training you will be able to hit directly with the first.

 

[Hurin]

This is deffiintly the best idea ive heard in a while. Although i dont know much about modding id be glad to help in any possible way. Ive read some basic faq's and i think i could pick up on it if you need any help at all.
-Skillz

 

[Psychomorph]

Hey, doesn´t that look like Infiltration?

 

[Hurin]

I have a couple of ideas to add. First of all what if you can jump/sprint and all that stuff in aim mode your weapon will simply go back to normal mode.
The other idea i had was that if someone tried to shoot in normal mode it would be the equivalent of hipping the weapon and it would shoot at non targeted location at the center if the screen at highly reduced accuracy. This seems useless but in a close quarter run this would prove highly useful and is a realistic tactic.