Psychomorph`s Idea for INF

[gal-z]

The way the guy on the left is carrying the AK is how we carry our primary weapons in combat in the IDF. It's good because u can leave it hanging there for fast pulling when u use ur hands or do a long walk to the objective.
As for ammo pouches, you can make self-made vests with as many pouches you can place, and make them as big as you want... For example, some vests have 2 pouches of 3 mags each (medic vests and m203 vests). Also I heard some places are making customized sniper vests since snipers don't need many magazine pouches but need a comfortable way to carry their sniper ammunition and sniper rifle.
As for backpack, in Israel, for example, we carry the M24 in a special backpack designed to keep it from losing zeroing until you reach your position (until then you walk with your primary weapon (usually m16 type) the standard way in case something goes wrong on the way). Some also carry it like the guy on the right carries his M-16, but on the right shoulder. However, this is rare as you don't need it accessible during movement and it may hit something and lose zeroing.

 

[ravens_hawk]

Beppo had mentioned something earlier about adding hardpoints to INF, detailed here.

We never implemented a hardpoint system for the carried inventory but had it in mind for some years already. We simply had not the time needed for testing this perfectly and so we sticked to the loadout 'wherever you put the stuff' system.
A hardpoint system would allow to use specific 'grab' or 'equip' times for each hardpoint. So the players 'packing' abilities (usage of the hardpoints in form of what stuff was placed where) would decide his 'personal' speed for grabbing the magazine or switching a weapon or even taking something out of his back- or buttpack.
This is all in our minds already for any future system we will implement.

It is also described later in the thread about selecting vests in your loadout to carry different things. (Like lots of M203s ) Also usually if you don't have enough room on your vest for ammo I think you would go to your buttpack first, before needing to take ammo out of your backpack.

As for the RPG, I'd much rather see a Carl-G, its similar to the AT4 but used more widely IIRC. Usually it takes a two man team to operate, one to fire/carry the system, the other to load and carry the ammo. It does come with a sling (and a bipod+3x scope but who needs those .) As for the ammo for the Carl-G, I would suspect that it’s carried in a backpack not loosely (weighting around 3.5Kg each,) at least that what's reservists do when they don't have vests or slings to carry M203s.

 

[Psychomorph]

The order of the weapon sling position is that way:

Singe weapon
A rifle, smg, shotgun, grenadelauncher will be in the chest sling position.
A sniperrifle, machinegun, rocketlauncher is always at the right back.

Multiple weapons
The shorter, lighter weapon will be at the chest position, the other weapons will be at the back.
- smg>carabine>assaultrifle>battlerifle>shotgun
In the menu you could set what weapon wil be where (for example you want to have a shotgun at the chest, but the carabine at the back.

Sniperrifles (light, heavy), machineguns (light, heavy) and rocketlauncher are always at the back.

As for ammo pouches, you can make self-made vests with as many pouches you can place, and make them as big as you want

Well, you could set in the menu, how many normal rifle magazines (all rifle calibers included) you can carry, that will automatical set the pouch count in your vest. Same for pistol, shells and SMG separate.

If you do not set the pouch count, it will set automatical by your ammo count, the more you take ammo in the loadout, the more pouches you get (so it´ll depend on the loadout).
That means if you take one mag plus (which would require a new pouch), you would get space for 1, or 2 mags extra in that pouch for the future.

The M203 (or nade launcher at all) require another vest, with special 40mm grenade pouches, or fastening.

--------------------------------------------
Key Setup


I would suggest having the full equipment of weapons listed at the bottom of the hud:

HUD type 1

HUD type 2

I would prefer the typo, it looks more clear and reduced and doesn´t cover so much. I prefer weapon names overall, but it is just an example.


Key setup (1)
1 = Chest sling position
2 = Right back sling position
3 = Left back sling position
4 = Pistol
5 = Grenades
6 = Knife
7 = Backpack

Or better that way?

Key setup (2)
1 = Primary weapon position
- toggle between the 3 rifles (or two)
2 = Pistol
3 = Grenadetype 1
4 = Grenadetype 2
5 = Grenadetype 3
6 = Grenadetype 4
7 = Knife
8 = Backpack

 

[Psychomorph]

@gal-z:
I´m just curious, how you would do a simulator game (as a person who deal with gunz and military)?

I personally would do it that way (which will never happen anyway):

Weapons
First, I would probably limit the weapon thing to 2 rifles (chest, right shoulder).

I would use the HUD type 2 I´ve posted.
Key setup would be:
1 = toggle between the two primal weapons
2 = sidegun
3,4,... = different grenade types
the rest = mines and other equipment

Weapon use
I would drop the hipped mode and include only the aimed and shouldered.
If lowready, than ppl can decide if they put the aim/shoulder toggle, or the lowready/current mode toggle on the right mouse key.

Freeaim
I would change the freeaim to a certain point:
- Shouldered weapon would have a small circle like freeaim (not like in INF an elyptic like downward freeaim), to let the weapon not look like freezed and to give the bullet spread.

- An aimed weapon would have ONLY a limitted 'vertical downward' freeaim. So if you aim up, to the left and right, the sight would stay centered, only if you move the mouse down from the mouselook position, the sight would lower a bit to give you free view to observe. You would be able to aim the sight down as in INF.

- Sniperscope freeaim would be very little.

Movement
I would implemet the movement probably exactly as AA:O did (stamina included). For me the movement is one of the best features in AA:O.
I would make the crouch speeds, the walk, run and sprint speed exactly the same, with the difference, that you walk and run the same speed if aim a rifle as normal.
If you sprint you would take the gun same as in AA:O (sideways, across, barrel down).

Sights
If possible, I would handle the rearsights (which are close to the eye) as described in the 'M16A2 sight solution' thread.

Red Dot sights would be as the INF MP5 Red Dot sight, but not as big. Scopes the same, but a bit bigger than red dot.

The sights would be usually closeer to the eye than in INF, but comfortable enought to run and observe with it.

No zoom with normal sights.

 

[Derelan]

I´m just curious, how you would do a simulator game (as a person who deal with gunz and military)?

Although the question wasn't directed at me, I once did a simulator game of that nature. I actually spent a year on it. And although it was 2D and couldn't possibly include any of the aspects you mention, it was still terrible and boring and a waste of time.

 

[jayhova]

Weapons
First, I would probably limit the weapon thing to 2 rifles (chest, right shoulder).

I would use the HUD type 2 I´ve posted.
Key setup would be:
1 = toggle between the two primal weapons
2 = sidegun
3,4,... = different grenade types
the rest = mines and other equipment

I would like to see it possible to customize your hud. Personally I'd like to see a popup of my weapon outline right in the middle of my screen. I use the mouse wheel for weapon selection and I don't wan't to have to look down. However it would be nice to know what key is assigned to what weapon.

Weapon use
I would drop the hipped mode and include only the aimed and shouldered.
If lowready, than ppl can decide if they put the aim/shoulder toggle, or the lowready/current mode toggle on the right mouse key.

I tend to think that hipped mode is not very useful accept in situations where it is nessesary to move through tight spaces while aiming or when you opponent is very close. Again I think a sticky mode where once the weapon is shouldered it stays shouldered would be nice. Hipped for pistols for the most part makes no sense.

Freeaim
I would change the freeaim to a certain point:
- Shouldered weapon would have a small circle like freeaim (not like in INF an elyptic like downward freeaim), to let the weapon not look like freezed and to give the bullet spread.

- An aimed weapon would have ONLY a limitted 'vertical downward' freeaim. So if you aim up, to the left and right, the sight would stay centered, only if you move the mouse down from the mouselook position, the sight would lower a bit to give you free view to observe. You would be able to aim the sight down as in INF.

Umm... No. I like freeaim. It works. The simple fact of the matter is that in real life you visually aquire you target and then bring your weapon to bear on it. Your head isn't mounted like a scope to the weapon. I think the freeaim area should be smaller for the iron site aimview then the shouldered view is used.

- Sniperscope freeaim would be very little.

Freeaim is all but irrelevent in scoped view because the picture in the scope always mooves the same.

Movement
I would implemet the movement probably exactly as AA:O did (stamina included). For me the movement is one of the best features in AA:O.
I would make the crouch speeds, the walk, run and sprint speed exactly the same, with the difference, that you walk and run the same speed if aim a rifle as normal.
If you sprint you would take the gun same as in AA:O (sideways, across, barrel down).

Sights
If possible, I would handle the rearsights (which are close to the eye) as described in the 'M16A2 sight solution' thread.

Red Dot sights would be as the INF MP5 Red Dot sight, but not as big. Scopes the same, but a bit bigger than red dot.

The sights would be usually closeer to the eye than in INF, but comfortable enought to run and observe with it.

No zoom with normal sights.

 

[Psychomorph]

Umm... No. I like freeaim. It works. The simple fact of the matter is that in real life you visually aquire you target and then bring your weapon to bear on it. Your head isn't mounted like a scope to the weapon. I think the freeaim area should be smaller for the iron site aimview then the shouldered view is used.

To be honest, I like the aim freeaim in INF too, but my point is, that if you aim a rifle you do not move it that relaxed around.

Sideways turn
Moving a weapon to the side you always turn your torso and that turns your head the same way.
So turning to the left or right would have the weapon fixed 'imho'.
The one thing, that you can do IRL, is to turn your head independant from the weapon direction, but that would not be aiming anymore, but observing.

Even if you aim a pistol, your arms, shoulders and the upper torso take a fixed stance, so if you turn, to the side, the whole torso/shoulders/arms move as one part.
Same here, the one thing, that you can do, is to turn your head independant from the pistol/arm direction, but that would not be aiming anymore, but observing.

Vertical
This is the only thing, where 'freeaim' IRL is done while aiming a gun. You´re forced to do so.
If you aim up, your torse keeps his position, but the arms, the weapon and your head work as a whole. But to implement the upward freeaim would make no sense.

If you aim down it works the same.
IRL moving the an aming weapon down gives you the single chance, to have 'freeaim', namely to lower the 'weapon/arm whole', but to keep the head up for observing reason. That I call 'Vertical Downward Freeaim', or just 'Vertical Freeaim'.
The second point is, that IRL you can also move the gun down and the head as a whole, to aim.

In INF both are combined for comfort sake. And I would keep it combined.
So aiming a weapon down, you can decide to use it to observe, or to aim down.

Freeaim is all but irrelevent in scoped view because the picture in the scope always mooves the same.

You´re right, it should move only if you make some movement.
The scopefreeaim feels good in INF2.9, but indeed, I liked the fixed scopeview in INF2.86 better.

I was suggesting that the scopes are a 3D model, allows you to look outside the scope to be able to spot movement at your side (an advantage real snipers have).

I also would diferent the sniperscopes and acog/mini scopes:
Sniperscopes should be fixed. Only a bit sway and effects should simulate some dynamic effects, not like the gun is freezed.

But acog scopes (that are smaller in 3D size) should keep a bit of the VF (vertical freeaim), to be able to observe the location a bit over the scope (like over the sight).

I think the freeaim area should be smaller for the iron site aimview then the shouldered view is used.

In general I mean the same, to prevent the ironsight beeing 'crosshair'. So they is still an ammount of freeaim to the side (not up, or just a bit), to let the model not look like freezed, give some natural movement, but not let the weapon look like it is swaying around in your shoulder.

The simple fact of the matter is that in real life you visually aquire you target and then bring your weapon to bear on it.

Right, but you aquire the target with your eyes (free screen area) and move the weapon to it, and you do not notice, how the head (screen view) is moving too, cuz your view is focused on the target. In a game you notice the head movement extreme, so I understand what the devs tried to simulate and it works good, but I still would prefer limitting the sideways freeaim to a degree not to let it look, like you circle the rifle around.

 

[Psychomorph]

'Controlled movement to control the aim' Suggestion

I remember seeing SWAT officers running during their operations. Sometimes, they run to move fast, while you see their weapon swaying hard, but sometimes they run slower and more controlled, especially if they shoot. They run fast, than reduce speed, shoot and continue running fast then.

I thought about to implemet the same in INF, my idea is the 'breath key' (aim key holded).
If you stand, what you do to control your aim? You try to neutralitze weaponsway (Rav3) and the breath by holding the aim key.
But if you move, or run, what you would do to increase the aim? You would drop your speed to controll the weapon better. By holding the aim key.

So if you walk, and hold the aim key, it wouldn´t lead you to hold the breath, since it would not make you aim better, but you would walk slower (kinda sneaking) to aim steady.
If you run, you would hold the aim key, and would run slower.

Like real SWAT officers and all soldiers that use weapons, you would use that only temporary. It is like you run in RL and try to shoot at some distance, if standing is not an option you would at most drop speed and try the best in the situation.

 

[Derelan]

You guys gotta learn to summarize, i'm not reading any more fking essays.

 

[jayhova]

Again, I have to disagree with you on this Psyco. There is in fact plenty of slack to swing a weapon irl. I just tried it with my shotgun. I was able to cover an entire doorway from 10ft away without moving anything other than my arms. Sitting in a deer blind the objective is to not move your head at all. I can tell you that it is quite easy to follow a target without moving. In fact it is quite natual to do so.

 

[Psychomorph]

Hmm, don´t know about shotguns. I tried that with a non lethal weapon that had M16 like sights (rearsight).

Of course I could move the weapon around by not moving the head and torso, but my problem was, I didn´t saw the frontsight trough the rearsight, because the whole weapon steady was a mess.

To be able to see the frontsight and actually aim, I was forced to follow the weapon with my head, with no need to turn the torso. But I noticed, that from my view the weapon was 'centered'.
To bring the front and rearsight to a line, you need to lay down your head (cheek) at the buttstock, so the head and weapon get one part. The only exception was aiming a bit up and down and I could hold the weapon steady without to move my head (just the eye), but the cheek was on the buttstock anyway, because it was not a side movement.
Even then I had problems to keep the front sight exactly in the middle of the rearsight.

But when I turned and kept the weapon, the head (layed on the buttstock), the arms, shoulders and the upper turso as one part, they was nearly no movement at the front sight, it was like a picture.
To turn more, I did some steps and made easily a 180° turn with nearly no aim loss.


If you want to shoot without to aim, you can easily move the weapon around, since you aren´t forced to keep the sights in line. But it seems more comfortable for me if I limit the freeaim while not using sights.

 

[gal-z]

Regarding aiming, see other thread.

Regarding carrying multiple weapons:
When you have a weapon at your chest, it's quite impractical to bring the weapon at your right/back and use it in battle. To use the 2ndary weapon effectively, you'll have to remove your primary weapon from your chest and preferably move your 2ndary weapon there. Optimally you wouldn't want to carry more than a pistol, primary weapon and a shoulder-sling-carried (sniper rifle) or backpack carried (sniper rifle, rocket launcher (RPG, LAW...)) weapon. Carrying more than that would making very tough and time-consuming weapon switching.
Well, of course, since pistols come in pouches, you can carry as many as you want, but will obviously have to pay the appropriate bulk penalties...

Oh and of course, in real battle we always carry a personal weapon (M-16 type for infantry) and if you're a sniper, RPG user, LAW user or whatever, you carry that weapon as well. Only SF use pistols, and that's for CQB, and that's in addition to what regular soldiers would carry (since a pistol comes in a pouch and doesn't make troublesome weapon switching).

 

[Psychomorph]

Carrying more than that would making very tough and time-consuming weapon switching.

Thats exactly my point of limiting the weaponry, cuz time consuming weapon switch is not worth coding (for more than 2 weapons).

But if we have 2 primaryweapons, than it should be coded and animation switching weapons. Something I dreamed of, is if you use one rifle at the chest, you just lift it and lower it, but if you have a weapon on the back, you should see from 1st person, a more complex animation, where the weapon is taken with the right arm, pulled forward, grabbed with the left the foregrip and grabed with the right hand the handgrip and shouldering.

Sniperrifles should be taken off the sling, so the sling is hanging down the rifle.

 

[gal-z]

Sniperrifles should be taken off the sling, so the sling is hanging down the rifle.

Obviously... Slings used to carry a rifle on a shoulder (like americans carry their weapons when they walk around in non-combat situation) are short and arn't meant to carry the weapon on your back or chest. Some use the sling to help get a good grip on the sniper rifle when shooting though, but that shouldn't matter gameplay-wise, just for general information.

 

[Psychomorph]

If the rifle is at the chest, do you take off the sling too? SWAT officers have the ability, to let hang the rifle and grab the pistol, is it in military too (for chest positioned weapons)?

Is the sling not long enough to have it over the neck and beeing able to operate it and aim?
If thissling is long enough, can´t you pull the back slinged rifle forward and keep it on the sling while using?

 

[gal-z]

If you have a slinged weapon on your chest it's quite impractible to use a 2nd weapon slinged to your right/back. Usually to use 2ndary slinged weapon you'll have to take one of them off, put the one you don't use on your right back and put the one you want to use on your chest (btw in the IDF it's called "neck-hang" for obvious reasons).
Obviously you could easily use a pistol when you have a slinged primary...

 

[gal-z]

One more thing I forgot to mention about pistols - they should only have 2 modes:
Movement: barrel pointed 90deg upwards, pistol held close to your head. That's most effective way for carrying it when you aren't shooting, for combination of fast aim while keeping collision and detection to a minimum (since pistols are basically CQB-only weapons).
Aimed/highready: aimed and highready is basically the same mode for pistols, as you aim a pistol the same way you'd aim a reflex. I think current inf aim is the best way to put it in game, since we don't have a way to simulate the 2-eye open view here.