Obama is the presumptive democratic nominee

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das_ben

das_ben

Concerned.
Feb 11, 2000
5,878
0
0
Teutonia
Jonathan said:
My mom needs surgery, but she can't afford it, so she's been having to live a limited life-style and not do much the past few years, because she can't afford the surgery. Does that mean the government should step in? NO! My parents are going to have to save up for the sugery and get it done as soon as they can. It's not the governments job, my parents are working hard, trying to put money aside.
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Alright, let me get this straight. Your Mom needs surgery. For a few years now. Your family has been saving up for a few years now, living a lower-standard lifestyle to be able to afford the surgery your mother needs.

Is it just me, or does anyone else think your attitude is really scary? You willingly let ideology get in the way of a better life for your family and help for your Mom.
 
Jonathan

Jonathan

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Mar 19, 2006
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das_ben said:
Alright, let me get this straight. Your Mom needs surgery. For a few years now. Your family has been saving up for a few years now, living a lower-standard lifestyle to be able to afford the surgery your mother needs.

Is it just me, or does anyone else think your attitude is really scary? You willingly let ideology get in the way of a better life for your family and help for your Mom.
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No, she has been to the doctor and she will need surgery, but it isn't life-threatening, but will need to be addressed.
 
Jonathan

Jonathan

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Mar 19, 2006
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Mister_Prophet said:
It's true that you should be able to beat your wife and whore your daughters to settle debts? :con:
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That's the Qur'an, not the Bible.

As for the daughter thing, what are you referring to, Exodus 21:7?

And actually, the Bible says the contrary to what you accuse it of,
Leviticus 19:29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.
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Mister_Prophet

Mister_Prophet

.
Nov 3, 2001
4,616
3
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Long Island
rednemesis.beyondunreal.com
Jonathan said:
That's the Qur'an, not the Bible.

As for the daughter thing, what are you referring to, Exodus 21:7?

And actually, the Bible says the contrary to what you accuse it of,
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You could be right. I don't think I was referring to Leviticus, but an Old Testament chapter I read detailing a father who offered his daughters to strange men in exchange for sanctuary of some sort. Perhaps I'm taking the passage out of context (or my commitment to memory is off), but I certainly recall passages detailing what I described, and many others of questionable content, though the constant contradictions always irritated me. Anyway, as a non-religious person who was always interested in reading religious parables I'm quite aware of the Patriarchal bias in many holy books, bible and qur'an included. I can completely understand criticism of what contemporary terrorists are doing in the world, and I certainly agree with many have said. It's just when people get in the holy book quotations looking for maliciousness where I raise an eyebrow. I mean it's not like the bible is gentle in comparison. Both books have a golden rule in some form or another, and "followers" who break it aren't really followers anyway. I just think it does no good to piss in the face of a whole movement when a few nut jobs are blowing crap up. Just as much as good natured muslims needs to make an effort to deafen the fanatics the way Christianity generally did over the last few hundred years (Perfect? No. still nut jobs? Of course, but comparatively...Christianity has chilled, a lot), other people looking in on Islam should avoid gestures that basically disparage or diminish the faith in anyway. I'm not saying that has happened here, but I've seen discussions with Holy Book quotations get out of hand in the past.

I love how political threads mutate :)
 
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Zur

Zur

surrealistic mad cow
Jul 8, 2002
11,708
8
38
49
Jonathan said:
No, it'll continue on, and again and again socialism will rear it's ugly head, fail again, and capitalism will come out on top again.

Too bad some have to learn by experience.
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Ah so this is a political question for you ? Well whatever you think of socialism, measures designed to spread costs among the collectivity on things like basic health care are totally apolitical in nature. If you think otherwise then you might as well consider the UK as being socialist. I'll add that I'm no big fan myself as I live in a socialist country and hate the place (<= hence my location).

Capitalism actually dominates the world of today so much so that even China is buying into it despite having been one of the few remaining communist nations. In fact the pressure exerted by the world markets is causing a lot of trouble in third world countries and putting a big strain on any country that has a developped "socialist" system. If there was ever a message behind these changes it's saying that one must play the game or lose. So basically there's nothing to get hot and bothered about. You as a self-proclaimed capitalist can say that you've won.

There's one snag though. The description you gave is that of the american dream that most people can identify with. But is that how things work today ?

Let's see. Most markets are commanded by big international companies that systematically buy out any smaller companies they find of interest. Most of them operate in such a way as to maximize profit by reducing infrastructure and shifting production to third world countries while inflating margins as much as possible. They also don't hesitate to blackmail the government of a country every now and then, basically saying they won't settle or will leave, in order to obtain the best conditions for establishing a point of presence. For the common worker this means less potential jobs and overall more unemployment.

Now most of the big fortunes are managed in order to avoid taxes and siphoning off riches to fiscal paradises. That means less revenue for a state with a trend that basically shifts the burden of maintaining a country to the common worker. That in turn means more taxes, depriving the common worker even more of what he's earned, in order to support the country.

This doesn't sound all rosy does it and it certainly doesn't correspond with your idea of capitalism. The effects are actually taking place somewhere near you right now. For example a lot of people that used to be working for the car factories in Detroit are pissed off because they might not get a decent pension even though they've been working hard for decades. And what about all those people that have had to sell their homes following the recent mortgage crisis ? They probably worked hard too and look what happens.

To finish off, I'll just cite this article just to underline the scale of what's happening :
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P140049.asp
Now, approximately half of this country's debt is held outside the United States, primarily by China, Japan and Southeast Asian nations.
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Mister_Prophet said:
I love how political threads mutate :)
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Noone has been awarded a godwin point yet so this topic will probably trail on a bit.
 
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Jonathan

Jonathan

New Member
Mar 19, 2006
542
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Mister_Prophet said:
You could be right. I don't think I was referring to Leviticus, but an Old Testament chapter I read detailing a father who offered his daughters to strange men in exchange for sanctuary of some sort. Perhaps I'm taking the passage out of context (or my commitment to memory is off), but I certainly recall passages detailing what I described, and many others of questionable content, though the constant contradictions always irritated me. Anyway, as a non-religious person who was always interested in reading religious parables I'm quite aware of the Patriarchal bias in many holy books, bible and qur'an included. I can completely understand criticism of what contemporary terrorists are doing in the world, and I certainly agree with many have said. It's just when people get in the holy book quotations looking for maliciousness where I raise an eyebrow. I mean it's not like the bible is gentle in comparison. Both books have a golden rule in some form or another, and "followers" who break it aren't really followers anyway. I just think it does no good to piss in the face of a whole movement when a few nut jobs are blowing crap up. Just as much as good natured muslims needs to make an effort to deafen the fanatics the way Christianity generally did over the last few hundred years (Perfect? No. still nut jobs? Of course, but comparatively...Christianity has chilled, a lot), other people looking in on Islam should avoid gestures that basically disparage or diminish the faith in anyway. I'm not saying that has happened here, but I've seen discussions with Holy Book quotations get out of hand in the past.

I love how political threads mutate :)
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Christians have never killed people, but rather, were the runs being killed, under Nero, Domitian, Rome, etc.
John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
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1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
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Jonathan

Jonathan

New Member
Mar 19, 2006
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That was an organization killing people, many of which were killed were Christians,
The Hussites were a Christian movement following the teachings of Czech reformer Jan Hus or John Huss (circa 1369–1415), who became one of the forerunners of the Protestant Reformation. This predominantly religious movement was propelled by social issues and strengthened Czech national awareness.

After the Council of Constance put their leader, Hus, to death on 6 July 1415, the same year in which the Council had declared itself superior to the Pope,[1] the Hussites fought a series of wars (1420-1434) for their religious and political cause.

Among present-day Christians, its traditions are represented in churches which call themselves Moravian or Unity of the Brethren churches, and in the refounded Czechoslovak Hussite Church.[2]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussites
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Luke 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. 23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets. 24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. 25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep. 26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets. 27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
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A Christian is someone that follows Christ. Just because a confused man or organization does horrible things in the name of Christ, that has nothing to do with Jesus. Even the term Christian, in the Bible, was actually a term people used to make fun of followers of Christ, because they said they were like "little Christs," and this term was soon adopted by Christians, but in Biblical times, was always tied to the persecutions the Christians endured.

For example, Paul was beheaded under Nero,
Eusebius of Caesarea, who wrote in the fourth century, states that Paul was beheaded in the reign of the Roman Emperor Nero.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostle_Paul

James was martyred and so were most of the other Apostles.

Acts 12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church. 2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword. 3 And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.) 4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.
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True Christians have never been the ones to raise and fight physical war, as Paul said our war is not against flesh, but is against spiritual wickedness in high places,
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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It is quite alarming. Many of you have an image of Christianity as some money-grubber on TV, or some man in a robe with a backwards collar performing some pagan-based tradition that in no way reflects the true meaning of the Lord's supper. Just as we have today with "identity theft," even so many have done a lot of bad things under the name of Christ, but they were in no way, shape, or form, are Christians, as it's the complete antipode of a Christian to murder someone.
 
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Crotale

Crotale

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Jan 20, 2008
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Funny how all of a sudden Wikipedia is a valid source of information. I recall some threads a while back in which a generous number of member here claimed that use of Wikipedia sources were not valid for argumentation, as the information may not be factually based.

Not dissing anyone, just making an observation.
 
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