Mike Capps On The Game Biz

[elmuerte]

why does every thread these days end in a trollfest/flamewar/...

 

[howl`]

I hope you mean SpikeTV, because Warcraft has not been advertised on network television in the US.

Wow, everything they say about you is true. Actually I've seen the WoW commercials on CBS, so no.

I'm not saying they haven't, I simply can't just trust his numbers. I'm positive that World of Warcraft has sold more copies than Gears of War, but that doesn't say anything about Warcraft 3 or other previous Blizzard games.

So you are that inept.

SC:
-As of June 2006, StarCraft and Brood War combined have sold over 9.5 million copies, and as of May 31, 2007, the two games combined have sold almost 10 million copies.
- source Wiki.

Gears of War:
Gears Of War Microsoft 18,002 7.81 4.97m
- source vgchartz.com

War3
4.5 million pre-ordered
- source http://amo.net/NT/06-20-02WAR3.html
http://pc.gamezone.com/news/07_22_02_01_43PM.htm

So while we can see tracking older titles is hard, it is easy to extrapolate that each of those older Blizzard titles moved over 5mil lifetime, which does put each above Gears. Moreover, the PC end let's the developer bring in more money since they don't have to pay any pressing fee or printing fee to the console maker.

Also, patching SC/WC3 with "Removed CD-key check" at this point is rather silly. I wouldn't say that can really be considered "Continual support" for older games.

So you are vapidly ignorant. SC's patch was strictly balance. The 1.21b patch is no-CD, however they have been public in discussing the forthcoming 1.22 patch which is entirely balance based on input from professional players.

So yes, that is what we call continued support. SC is older than dirt and they still polish it up.

I'm quite acutely aware of how much money Blizzard is making, but it's not thanks to their previous games (other than their effect on Blizzard's reputation, to a certain extent).

Yes no doubt selling 5mil+ of multiple titles never helped their bottom line and enabled them to recruit the talent or spent the money to make WoW. If you look at the assumed gain (given no fees) from PC sales each of those titles earn them hundreds of millions.

At the same time, Epic is selling a lot of engine licenses. You can't tell me you have any idea how much money that is generating for them.

Actually I can since Namco owned 2 of them. I'll give you a hint, it doesn't approach 1/10th of 1.1billion annually.

You still haven't proved that no UT game ever had 250,000 unique players in a single week.

Lovely, the peak online for War3 was almost 2mil. You really want to compare peaks? I guarantee War3 peak will out do all UTs combined in their peak. Peak nor current, UT has no leg to stand on and thusly Epic being critical of Blizzard remains a laugh to anyone aside from troll fanboys.

elmuerte:
Thus is the result of a community with nothing worth playing from Epic.

 

[Continuum]

I'll compare peaks

edit
never mind camera broke.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

Wow, everything they say about you is true. Actually I've seen the WoW commercials on CBS, so no.So you are that inept.

I haven't on ANY network, so your attempt to "prove" that it is a household name is failing to impress. This isn't about if YOU have seen commercials at 3:00am while fapping to some wonder-nude on some porn site. This is about if Joe Schmoe has seen them, and I'm telling you that he hasn't. Video game commercials on network TV, and particularly PC game commercials, are as rare as rain in the Sahara. Yes, it happens, but it's not as often as you would like everyone to believe.

SC:
-As of June 2006, StarCraft and Brood War combined have sold over 9.5 million copies, and as of May 31, 2007, the two games combined have sold almost 10 million copies.
- source Wiki.

Gears of War:
Gears Of War Microsoft 18,002 7.81 4.97m
- source vgchartz.com

War3
4.5 million pre-ordered
- source http://amo.net/NT/06-20-02WAR3.html
http://pc.gamezone.com/news/07_22_02_01_43PM.htm

This doesn't tell me how things will be in 9 years for Gears of War. I really don't know what you are trying to prove.

So you are vapidly ignorant. SC's patch was strictly balance. The 1.21b patch is no-CD, however they have been public in discussing the forthcoming 1.22 patch which is entirely balance based on input from professional players.

No, I knew they'd made balance changes to the games fairly recently. I was only saying I wouldn't call a No CD patch "continued support". I could have gotten one of those the day the game came out. Why couldn't they have snuck it in an earlier patch?

Yes no doubt selling 5mil+ of multiple titles never helped their bottom line and enabled them to recruit the talent or spent the money to make WoW. If you look at the assumed gain (given no fees) from PC sales each of those titles earn them hundreds of millions.

Which is chump change compared to what they are making now, so where is the point?

Actually I can since Namco owned 2 of them. I'll give you a hint, it doesn't approach 1/10th of 1.1billion annually.

And I'm certain you are the point man on Unreal Engine licenses, right? I'd be surprised if you knew how much Namco was spending on their license, let alone the dozens of other companies licenses.

Lovely, the peak online for War3 was almost 2mil. You really want to compare peaks? I guarantee War3 peak will out do all UTs combined in their peak. Peak nor current, UT has no leg to stand on and thusly Epic being critical of Blizzard remains a laugh to anyone aside from troll fanboys.

Who is trolling here? You registered just to defend your immaculately perfect Blizzard.

And why is it being critical of a company to say "I don't know how their business model is working." ? Technically, Blizzard should be floundering thanks to their business model, but they have managed to make more than a fortune off of their games. It really is surprising. How many games have you worked on for three years that get trashed? I'd be willing to bet zero. That's because those games come at a GREAT expense when they have been in development that long. And you can't recover the cost you spent on them because people aren't going to be able to buy the game.

 

[hal]

While we're turning this thread into a flamefest, I thought I'd share my favorite WarCraft "moment" http://www.southparkzone.com/episode-vid-1008.htm

 

[Go&nd]

This is about if Joe Schmoe has seen them, and I'm telling you that he hasn't. Video game commercials on network TV, and particularly PC game commercials, are as rare as rain in the Sahara. Yes, it happens, but it's not as often as you would like everyone to believe.

Toyota ran a Tacoma (its pickup truck) commercial in which it heavily featured World of Warcraft. I saw this commercial about a dozen times over the course of the NFL season, from prime time games to small market games. That's about as mainstream as product penetration can get.

Kotaku: Trucks and Trolls


As I stated in my previous post, I've never played a Blizzard game and I'm not interested in playing them anytime soon. I'm far from a Blizzard fanboy. But I do pay close attention to the gaming industry outside of the Unreal Engine universe (and I have since the late 80s).

Blizzard totally annihilates Epic when it comes to sales, universality of its brands and consistency of critical acclaim. If you don't realize that, you've had your Unreal fanboy blinders on for far too long.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

I never denied that and it was never my point either.

I don't watch football all that much, so I wouldn't see those commercials. Besides, if I wasn't into gaming that commercial wouldn't even make sense to me. My wife didn't even think it was professionally made (and she is an artist).

 

[howl`]

Briz:
1) So, because you live under a rock you think WoW has not become the cultural icon it has? Do you get out? This is almost as funny as your recount of how imbalanced ONS-Dawn is... remember how badly you got blasted? All I can say is that I've had 4 dates in the last year, when I told each of them I play video games they said "World of Warcraft?". "No Missy, I don't play WoW, thank you very much."

This doesn't tell me how things will be in 9 years for Gears of War. I really don't know what you are trying to prove.

If you think Gears will sell copies in this Halo 3 and CoD4 era, you're high. Gear's day is done and over. Gear 2 will likely barely break a million life time.

No, I knew they'd made balance changes to the games fairly recently. I was only saying I wouldn't call a No CD patch "continued support". I could have gotten one of those the day the game came out. Why couldn't they have snuck it in an earlier patch?

So if you know about Warcraft 3 1.22 then why do you keep droning on? It's neat they pre-patched the game, but the big one is coming.

Which is chump change compared to what they are making now, so where is the point?

Smart business practices lead to success? That's the point.

And I'm certain you are the point man on Unreal Engine licenses, right? I'd be surprised if you knew how much Namco was spending on their license, let alone the dozens of other companies licenses.

I know as a fact a UE license doesn't cost a tier 1 developer more than a million. Lower tier developers pay more... but that's still not remotely within the realm of a 100mil total revenue. So again, not approaching 1/10th of Blizzard's year.

Who is trolling here? You registered just to defend your immaculately perfect Blizzard.

Given my success in UT as a whole (BTW, I own pure who won all the Pure Pressure money tournaments in UT04 and the Game Spot UT3 tournament) I don't think I qualify as a Blizzard fanboy. I actually only play their RTS games casually. These days I play TF2 more than anything else.

And why is it being critical of a company to say "I don't know how their business model is working." ? Technically, Blizzard should be floundering thanks to their business model, but they have managed to make more than a fortune off of their games.

"Technically"? Actually no. You build solid games and establish your brand as one of paramount quality and that translates to mass sales. Canning a game that's in production doesn't cost that much. Significantly less than the net profit of their polished products. Moreover, releasing AAA+ titles exclusive and not turning your crap on to the world means your reputation remains high and you can easily move your products.

It really is surprising. How many games have you worked on for three years that get trashed? I'd be willing to bet zero.

LOL, try a few a year. I know a team that worked for Midway that saw 7 titles get canned before they all finally just quit. It is common in game development.

That's because those games come at a GREAT expense when they have been in development that long. And you can't recover the cost you spent on them because people aren't going to be able to buy the game.

You also can't recover a tarnished reputation from churning out crap. Why do you think UT3 sold like ass? UT04 was awful and the UT3 demo showed Epic hasn't learned thing one from that failure. Their reputation is so bad on the PC side I doubt they'll show their faces here again.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

So from your post, I can assume that you believe throwing millions of dollars away is a good business practice. I sure hope you never enter high level management at a company, or they will certainly be screwed.

 

[howl`]

It is common in game development.You also can't recover a tarnished reputation from churning out crap.

I don't think it, I know it. You think Coke or Pepsi release everything they develop? You think every car company releases each cap they prototype? No.

Reputation takes a very long time to rebuild. Standards, I know you're a UT diehard so yours are low... but standards.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

Here, I'll make this simple for you.

Venture Capitalist gives you $2million. You spend all of it developing a game and throw the game away.

How much money do you end up with?

 

[howl`]

If you have to rely on VC money you shouldn't be in game development. It isn't a business model that can work well with that. At least for AAA titles. Casual crap or cell phone titles yes. You should learn something about the industry. You can tire yourself on this point, but there's HOW it works and that seems to be vastly different from how you dream it works.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

You don't even know what I do or what my involvement in the industry is, so that's a lofty claim

 

[howl`]

Rofl, I don't need to know, your mass ignorance speaks volumes for what you actually do. You should submit your no doubt lofty resume to Blizzard so you can reform their flawed business model.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

Ugh... so after all this time you still failed to see my point. Good going.

 

[MonsOlympus]

You're reading WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much into that. He's talking about teams, not titles. Unreal wasn't over when Legend did Unreal 2, nor was UT2003 when DE did it.

As a one team company (pre-merger) Epic wanted to try something new with Gears. As a two team company (post-merger) we got the best of both worlds, a new franchise and the one that attracted us all to Epic in the first place.

Ahh this is good to know, scion went on to do UC2 I take it not a UT title though? From what I could tell is theres a mix of both teams on the last 3 titles out from Epic.

Btw is battlefield surgeon an official title?

And how exactly would that be Unreal? Unreal is about the Nalis, colorful and atmospheric places on some strange planet, etc. I dont see nano black tentacle growing goths who have a weak for turkish buildings fit into that, but that might just be me

I would love to see another Unreal but but on the other hand, I'd rather not see U3... I dont believe that a true successor can be made, and it will never live up to everyone's expectations...

I do agree here but DM-Sentinel is a good example I think of the more temple like structures in UT3, while they might not be along the same lines as the original Unreal I think it would be totally possible to portray that same suspense in such an environment.

I think a true successor can be made, wether or not it lives up to peoples expectations should be the last thing on Epics mind if they are going to approach Unreal 3.

The nali wernt hugely original niether were the skaarj either but hey hiding your sources is originality right? cause if you are a mortal kombat or predator fan you'll know what Im on about. The gameplay did have original pieces but I think it did have one thing going for it, it was a first person action/adventure in every sense of the word. Alot of games these days hide in the adventure pile when in effect they are nothing more than a shooter yet we slap on the adventure tag to those which give the better experience not because they actually contain adventure gameplay.

Lets take the monolith in 2010, voyger in the original star trek motion picture, the alien craft on lv426 in aliens or even the end of AI with the semi-submersed city. To me those things are unreal, they might not be in the unreal universe but the emotions which come from those scenes is a very similar experience to what I felt when playing unreal. Theres just this scale and aura to it all looking at things like there is a myst over ones eyes. The scenes also get ones heart racing before the action even starts, this is what Unreal 2 was missing, it had some really great environments but there was alot of action which took away from the exploration and suspense.

Hal says it well.

Yes, I totally agree with this. The thing that attracted me to Unreal was that sense of wonderment and exploration. The castles and Nali were a great blend of fantasy and sci-fi. There was something interesting about being a lowly prisoner escaping the wreckage of your prison ship with little more than a health pack and a scavenged weapon that was a total contrast to the fps games that had come before it.

Unreal 2 missed the mark on all those counts, and instead wandered right into the middle of sci-fi mainstream where it became mostly boring.

A properly done Unreal 3 would be awesome.

I dont think an Unreal title needs the nali but it does need some level of fantasy or mythology to the universe, there will always be people who say oh I liked the original better but I do believe its possible, especially in the games industry, for a sequel to surpass the originals.

 

[ne_skaju]

And how exactly would that be Unreal? Unreal is about the Nalis, colorful and atmospheric places on some strange planet, etc. I dont see nano black tentacle growing goths who have a weak for turkish buildings fit into that, but that might just be me

I would love to see another Unreal but but on the other hand, I'd rather not see U3... I dont believe that a true successor can be made, and it will never live up to everyone's expectations...

Maybe some RPG/FPS style, a game like Deus Ex. I'd not say necris is all bad theme. I dont mind even if egypteal stuff vere added to game... of course they should be more atmospheric.

 

[suibhne]

I have no idea where you're getting your numbers from, but it doesn't matter either as you're entirely missing my point.

Ironically, Brizz, it appears that you're entirely missing your point. Let's recap.

Your point: "I doubt that Blizzard games previous to WoW had any kind of outrageous numbers of player (by that I mean I'm sure they were fairly standard PC gamer numbers)."

My counter-point: Each Blizzard title since the original Warcraft: Orcs and Humans has been a mega-success.

Your response: My wife doesn't know the names of their games!

Uh...so what? When I asked whether you recognized titles like "Warcraft", "Starcraft", and "Diablo", I was making no statements about mass mindshare for Blizzard; I was honestly questioning your lack of awareness of Blizzard's products, since you made the incredible claim that Blizzard hadn't achieved any significant (i.e., above average) player numbers prior to WoW. I'm not being polemical when I say that claim is shockingly ignorant for someone who claims some awareness of the game industry.

I'm only saying it is surprising they have been successful when they have thrown away years worth of time and money on not just a couple of games but several. They could have gained a lot of experience from those games, but they certainly didn't recoup the cost.

You don't think Blizzard, with revenues of over $1 billion, has recouped the cost of their development?

I might see what you're trying to say there, Brizz, but it's fallacious. You're putting each game project into a little box and insisting that it demonstrate a bottom line at the end of the day, but that's not how Blizzard works. The entire dev process for Blizzard is focused not just on individual products, but on the growth of teams and design expertise. Valve stresses similar goals. Both companies are massively more successful than Epic, and it's ludicrous for Mike Capps - or you - to be calling out Blizzard's dev process.

This paragraph is verging on blind fanboyism. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry, too - that you feel the need to resort to ad hominems rather than respond to any of the verifiable data.

I'm far from a Blizzard fanboy. I detest WoW, and I've never played any other Blizzard game online. That doesn't mean I don't recognize Blizzard's accomplishment in the PC market, and it dwarfs Epic's in just about every way.

Can you show me that no UT game ever posted 250,000 unique players in a week? Just because the "current numbers" only show 8,000 people or whatnot doesn't prove anything in that way.

That's true, so let's look at it differently: Warcraft 3, after 6 years, still posts hundreds of thousands of unique players online, every single week. Even if you argue that, hey, UT might have posted similar numbers because we can't prove it didn't...there's absolutely no doubt that all of the UT titles rolled together are currently posting only a tiny fraction of the unique player numbers in even the smallest of Blizzard's officially-sanctioned Warcraft 3 tournaments - and that tournament is in turn dwarfed by non-tournament play through Battlenet and play through DotA. And all of those numbers are for a game that's 6 years old.

You argued that Blizzard hadn't achieved any above-average (i.e., above "fairly standard PC game numbers") player numbers with any title prior to WoW, and your argument has now been shown to be utterly mistaken with respect to both sales and online player participation.

 

[Anuban]

Howl I agree with everything you say but not about Gears 2. You are totally off base about that. Gears 2 will do just as well if not better than Gears ... you can be certain of that. MS is going to put a ton of mktg into that game and CliffyB and company are going to work even harder than ever to be more like Valve (HL2) than Bunge (H2) when it comes to sequels. I just can't see Gears 2 being a failure ... not on the 360 anyway.

 

[Anuban]

How is Valve massively more successful than Epic? Especially these days when just about everyone and their mother are licensing from Epic and Gears won tons of GoTY awards as are the games with UE3 tech like Bioshock and Mass Effect while Valve releases years old games in a new package with a new puzzle game called Portal ... ummm I am not seeing it ... and I know that the Orange box did well but so what ... if UT2K4, Gears Multiplayer, and hell even Unreal II XMP is updated for the 360 (the older stuff) and bundled with UT3 when it comes out for the 360 watch how well it sales ... the point is people will buy something if they feel like they are really getting a great deal and putting 5 games in one package and selling it for the price of one game was the only reason the Orange box did as well as it did. When EP1 came out people were not that impressed or happy with Valve. I remember that clearly ... so of course they had to come back strong. Do you think that EP2 and TF2 would have been such a big seller if just the two games were packaged ... I don't ...

I'm not an Epic fanboy any longer but I sure don't think Valve deserves anywhere near the amount of credit you are giving them. They have come out with only one series ... Half life and I am not impressed with how long it is taking them to tell the story and how they are drawing it out. EP3 is not even going to be the end. What else do they really have going for them ... Portal? That's a joke next to UT even in the shape UT3 is in. And Gears of War blows HL2 away so I expect Gears 2 to really put the beat down to EP2 and EP3 of HL.