Impracticality of AKMSU

[DEFkon]

I like our AK. It's small, got very good open sights, it's powerfull, with an easily controled rate of fire. The only compaints i see here are "it's a rare model". Which isn't a real complaint as far as i'm concerned. In fact IIRC part of the weapon selection critera that the team used when selecting weapons was to try and pick unique weapons, to distance themselves from the other 8 million FPS games using "realistic" weapons. I assume that's why we have a .40S&W MP5 which isn't anywhere near as popular as 9mm..... ( and before that it was the even more rare 10mm version)

 

[jaunty]

Crito- Umm, you neglected to consider the 5.56x45's superior sectional density,in relation to accuracy, and armor penetration, let alone terminal ballistics.Meplat-

The terminal ballistics of the soviet rounds can only really be called superior based on opinion. If you value penetration, you think the Russian rounds are better. If you value fragmentation and the myth of knock down power, you want the US rounds. As the attatched images show, the soviet 5.45mm round has superior penetration to both versions of 5.56mm.

Of course, common sense says that two holes to bleed from kill a man faster than one, so I prefer the superior penetration of the soviet rounds. The whole concept of knock down power is a myth. No bullet has enough physical power to knock a man down.

So yeah, terminal performance here comes down to opinion.

 

[Meplat]

Jaunty- Nice, except you used the 5.45X39, rather than the 7.62X39 data. Kind of apples and oranges. Also, the permanent wound channel is significantly larger on the M855's set image, indicating a lot more tissue damage, and thus bleeding would have resulted.

"air goes in and out, blood goes round and round. Any deviation from these long standing principles is bad"

If you ever get the chance to meet Marty Fackler, I reccomend it. Fun guy to talk guns with. The Yuma IWBA confrences were very educational, though I missed the last one due to a work conflict. One intereresting set of tests involved the effects super short tubes have on 5.56 NATO arms. I'll probably be boring the hell out of many in here when I get that test data.

Meplat-

 

[jaunty]

Yeah, my bad, I misread the calibers in your post above (Saw 5.56x45 as "5.45". It was about 3am ) The 5.45 and 7.62x39 are almost identical, though (with the exception of the depth at which events occur). I've attatched the 7.62 soviet here for those who haven't seen the profile.

And yes, the M885 fragments and creates what I'd call a "lead explosion" for a cavity, but note the depth it happens at. Serious fragmentation begins around 10cm. The back of my knee to the highest point on my kneecap is 12cm. In other words, the seriously huge cavity occurs near the back of the target, assuming you shoot him from the front at a 90° angle.

Compare this to the 5.45, where the temporary cavity is reaching its peak at 10cm, rather than beginning its expansion at 10cm. In practical terms, this means the temporary cavity on a 5.45 is reaching its peak somewhere around about the depth that would be just behind your heart, which means your heart, as well as having two holes in it, just got pushed out and expanded to the point that it's probably been torn apart.

Similarly, if we consider Fackler's results to be typical, the lead explosion of the M885 wouldn't even hit the heart. You'd count yourself lucky if it ruptured the spine.

So, I conclude that the effects of 3 or 4 5.45mm rounds causes a whole heap more trauma than the same number of 5.56mm rounds

Addendum: I also think it's much fairer to compare the 5N7 and the M885, since I've basically been arguing under the premise of the Infiltration AKMSU being a mislabelled AKS-74U, which fires the 5N7.

 

[Tiffy]

Crito- Umm, you neglected to consider the 5.56x45's superior sectional density,in relation to accuracy, and armor penetration, let alone terminal ballistics.

Also, unless one is using a firearm chambered for say, .50 BMG, or 20X139, any media other than air will affect shot placement.

The more I hear of this "Silent Ammo" the more the name "Mondragon" echoes in my mind.


Meplat-

Sorry to say this but even .50BMG rounds are effected by the scenery. I watched a very interesting demo where two paper screens where placed on a range and the gap between had some nice scrubery. We were firing everything up .50BMG ( range wasn't allowed higher calibre...shame). All rounds where shown to have keyholed the second screen showing that just striking the scrubery (and first paper screen) had made the round tumble.

Like I said very interesting demo.

 

[Meplat]

Jaunty- Hmm. Consider this for me. Look at the permanent wound cavity of the M-855's profile. I'll be conservative, and call it 15 centimeters. Now, imagine you've been hit, approximately the width of your hand, north of the navel, and now have a 15CM diameter sphere, approximately 20CM past entrance, of pulped, bleeding seeping meat, where your innards once were. (Inferior vena cava has probably been poked a bit too.) Yes, the entrance hole is but a wee thing, but all that oozy red stuff that keeps your brain ticking is no longer "going round and round" quite so well. Temporary, AND permanent wound channels kill. tissue damage, and the bleeding out that results is what kills, if one does not hit a major nerve center (Spine/brain).
Think of it this way. Would you rather have a nail through a lung, or a coffee cup sized lump of one's liver reduced to pate, while a firecracker rolled in birdshot is detonated in said mess? (Not that either is a plesant thought, but for the sake of discussion..)



Tiffy- *Nods* I was making an attempt at an"extreme" case, in relation to the myth of "brush busting". There is one munition though that does very well on foliage, and those lurking within it.


Napalm. (Bad joke. I know.)

Meplat-

 

[jaunty]

You're forgetting something here. The gelatin that those rounds smacked to create those profiles is alot harder, and much more consistant than the gooey stuff inside you. The density of tissue inside the human body varies drastically as you move through it. Going by the Fackler image, you need 10cm worth of skin and/or muscle before fragmentation begins in any measurable amount. The only places on the body with that sort of muscle mass are the limbs. Therefore, the fragmentation of the round cannot be depended upon if they land anywhere in centre mass.

The gelatin blocks are consistent with the density of skin and muscle. There isn't a great deal of skin or muscle in the area you described. This means the fragmentation is not garaunteed. The massive penetration of the two soviet rounds however, is garaunteed.

EDIT: The temp cavity on the 5N7 is approximately the same size (give or take say 3cm) as the permanent cavity on the M885. You said temp cavities and permanent cavities kill. Can you imagine the massive amounts of damage that occur when the shockwaves (i.e the forces creating the temp cavities) from multiple 5N7 hits collide?

Look at the size of the temp cavity on that bastard, and imagine how much energy that is. Now multiply it by the number of rounds fired (2 at least). Nothing quite like your insides colliding with each other while they're getting holes drilled through them.

 

[Meplat]

Jaunty- *Shrugs* actually, it's about the same consistency as fat. Fairly dense, but not the same as muscle. That's one reason why the use of duxseal, or plasticene was discontinued. Those simulated muscle decently, but did not replicate the approximate density of a human torso. (disregarding bone.) "ordinance gelatin" (that's what it's called) is "calibrated" with amazingly, a Daisy bb gun. It's that soft.

I'll see if I still have the mixture around, as well as calibrating directions. (I'd always been tempted to make Strawberry, or Lime flavored ordinance gelatin, spiked with vodka to make finding clean up personell easier.)

Meplat-

 

[Crito]

"The terminal ballistics of the soviet rounds can only really be called superior based on opinion. If you value penetration, you think the Russian rounds are better. If you value fragmentation and the myth of knock down power, you want the US rounds." - by mr.jauntry

Before I start mr jauntry, I just thought it would be fair to give you a verbal slap back for your inconciderate attack on the whole idea of the forum (which is to discuss). I know they are weighed in grains, but I specificly said GRAMS, and stated the correct WEIGHT in grams, therefore, your claim that I was giving wrong measurements in weight, or that I didn't know they were standardly measured in grains, is unfounded. Grams are easier to do the math in for some people (namely those who WOULD be trying to understand this who don't know about it, not including myself).

Now, for a quick bit of insight into this.

Even though the 7.62 x 39 has a lower muzzle velocity, concidering it has so much compared to the 5.56 (just by putting the weight compared its traveling speed) the 7.62 has more force if it hits something like a brick wall or something. But of course, this is a person, so yes, some of its force will be lost by the fact that it DOES NOT have as large of a cavity (in which its force actualy goes into). BUT, concidering the bullet has so much more force compared to the 5.56 even though it has less... "cavity making time" i guess you could call it, the force that the 7.62 has is a heck of alot more than the 5.56, even assuming it'll lose a larger percentage of its force while going through the persons flesh.

Now, lets take a look at your little pictures shall we? Even though the 7.62 x 39 does it damadge later on in the body it would still hit vital organs since its damadge starts around halfway, till about the time it leaves the body. Last time I checked... thats where most of the organs in a human body were correct? vital ones too, like your kidneys even (which are tward the back).

So, ... I may not be a rocket scientist, but, doesn't that mean the 7.62 has more force in its hit (concidering although it loses more (percentage wise) of its force when going through the body, it still gives more overall pressure than the 5.56 or 5.45), and mean more damadge to vital organs?

Thinking about it a bit more, if you wanted to penetrate body armor or something, the 7.62 would be perfect in that situation too if you think about it. Since its damadge is done esseitnaly later on, it should (in theory) pierce the armor and do its damadge (even though it went through armor) around the center of the body, near vital oragans as well. While, the 5.45 and 5.56 would probably do it in an almost superficial sence very close to the surface instead of deep near the organs.

---The sidenote---

This is the difference between me and jauntry. The difference between me and him is this. I want to be proven wrong, while he doesn't. He seems to be very bold in his statements, and has that very assertitive tone, but he lacks one thing, which is the 'why'. To me, when I'm proven wrong, legitamately, I learn something new, and aquiring a new peice of knowledge makes you have that much more power (in the knowledge sense) the the responsibility to manage that knowledge. When you don't want to be proven wrong, or argue in an effective, efficient manner, you prove (not only to yourself, but others) that you can't handle the responsibility of managing knowledge and aquiring more because you can't handle the most important section of knowledge, truth. There is always knowledge out there, true and false, but the truth in an argument is far more valuable than something false (which makes your argument week).

So I only ask this jauntry, if your going to post in the forums, please understand this is a place to sort out fact from fiction. If your going to argue against something, or even for something, please make sure its in a very supported manner, and try to discuss as a civil human being (IE, not more 'your an idiot' speeches). If your going to say someone is wrong, just say:

You are wrong in this sense because ______ illistrates that ____ doesn't/does do _____, and this source is credible because ______.

This is a place to argue and discuss, not fight. Fighting only gets people mad, discussions get to the bottom of things and make everyone wiser for participating. So, can we please just stop with the insults and egos and just talk?

... don't ask what my perfession is either, but I'll give you this much, it has nothing to do with firearms.

 

[jaunty]

Ok then. Lets get started at the top.

First of all, I never actually said you gave the wrong weight. I just asked that you use the standard unit of measure, which is grains, so double check what people say before you go off shouting them down. This is commonly known as "not going off half cocked."

I'm not gonna quote everything to respond to it, because the quotes are just too big. But I'll first address your "paragraph" regarding 7.62x39 and its profile. Hey dumbass. Guess what. YOU CAN LIVE WITH ONLY ONE KIDNEY. If you're going around shooting people in the kidneys, you aimed wrong.Kidneys are where you punch people, not where you shoot them.

You aim for the solar plexis when you shoot. In other words, the dead centre of the chest cavity. This lines you up for a heart, lung and spine shot. all with the one round if you're good/lucky. It's called centre mass, and you aim for it because it gives you the best odds of getting a good hit and a fairly quick kill. Headshots kill quicky, but the chest is a much bigger target than the head.

You did get it right when you woke up to the fact that people do wear body armor, though. Good for you.

Now, I've been here for 3 and a half years. You've hardly been here 3 and a half days. Don't tell me where, what, how or why to post. And for the record, I don't give a shit what you do for a living.

 

[Crito]

Well, i'm sorry to hear you do not want to have a calm, rational discussion reguarding the matters brought up here, and, quite frankly, I would appreciate it if you would volunatarialy stop posting.

More importantly though, is what you said after that when you said:

"Now, I've been here for 3 and a half years. You've hardly been here 3 and a half days. Don't tell me where, what, how or why to post."

1) I'm making recomendations to make the discussion more organzied, I made them once, and I haven't made them again. They were not in a demanding way, they were in a very easy to see recomendation.

2) Just because you've been here for 3 and a half years does not make you any more competetent about he subject we are discussing than anyone else. Not to mention, just because you've been here longer, doesn't mean someone who hasn't doesn't have good, if not better ideas and or information than you do. In a nutshell, your argument about you being here 3 years has little to nothing to do with the subject of the AKMSU, or the 3 bullet types discuss, and is not only invalid, but unfounded.

From now on, any messages with a directly blatent personal attack twards anyone posting here will be ignored by me. I don't want this to become an out of hand thread, I just want to have a simple, decently organized discussion.

 

[Meplat]

Crito- You're comparing two diffrent things, muzzle energy, and the terminal ballistics. A projectile can have tremendous muzzle energy, and have terrible wound ballistics. Examples are the SS ball 7.92X57, and the U.S. M2 AP round. Massive penatrative abilities, but the wounds they inflict, unless they specefically hit the spine, heart, head or a major artery/vein are simple to patch even in the field. Conversely a round can have poor penetration, or low velocity on paper, but perform with deadly efficency on bipedal targets. I'll cite the British MkVII ball round as an example here.

Regarding your comments on armor penetration, yes, having mass helps, but moreso, the projectiles sectional density comes into play here. the M 43 has decent sectional density, for a mid 1940's "carbine" load (I'm classing it with the 7.62X33- U.S. M1 Carbine load- and the German 7.93X33)

Now, when penetrating soft (kevlar, BN, etc) armors, one wants a very small frontal area, and a lot of mass behind it. Sectional Density. The M855 has this in spades, as well as the advantage of a steel spacer (I hesitate to use the term "penetrator") to aid in poking a hole in the armor. A secondary, yet still important consideration is velocity. From a M16, the M855 round is travelling at over 3,000 FPS, giving it a further advantage in armor penetration over the M43.

Don't put off the notion of temporary wound channels, and permanent wound channels not being as effective as sheer penetration. Tissue damage is what puts people down IRL, and the M193, and M855 from a M16 (NOT the M4) is very effecient at this job.

Meplat-

 

[jaunty]

You're saying the 5N7 from a '74 doesn't have a seriously impressive temp cavity?

Also, I still say .30-06 is as good as it gets when you're looking for a good compromise between good penetration and good fragmentation. Of course, I'm yet to see a wound profile for this new blended metal ammo, but I hear it doesn't perform as well in gelatin as it does in the field, because of the temprature they keep the gelatin at when they fire the round into it.

As for rounds only being effective if you get a heart, spine or vein, that's why we aim for centre mass. Refer to the attatched image (I love my images to see how hard it is to shoot somebody in the chest and NOT hit something that'll cause a mortal wound, keeping in mind of course, that the lungs aren't shown in this particular diagram. Even the most sissy wound cavity is going to kill somebody if it lands in their chest. The difference is how long it'll take until they're actually dead, and whether or not it'll incapacitate them. For all the rounds we've discussed in this thread, you're basically looking at instant incapacitation if you land it on target anywhere around the heart.

And Crito, get over yourself. I've been doing things like this since I've been here, and you're the only one who's failed to realise that if you ignore 2 or 3 lines of my posts, you'll find they're actually nothing but a factual or opinionated (as the situation may warrant) contribution. If you think everybody in the world is going to be nice to you, go back to high school. I have a seriously bad attitude, and it isn't changing for you.

 

[-Freshmeat]

I am sorry to interrupt your discussion and drag this further off topic, but could any of you please give some references.

I'd like to know more about wound ballistics from different rounds, but beside Fackler homepage I have not been able to find anything online. Offline references (journals and monographs) would be even more welcome.

And while I am taking your time, does anyone know of descent sound recordings of different guns being fired?

-Freshmeat (Just curious)

 

[OICW]

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/military_bullet_wound_patterns.html

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

www.tacticalforums.com , the forum on Terminal Effects (search that forum for any questions you might have)

http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Fackler/wrong.html

^ Oldie but does dismiss any myths you may have heard about wound ballistics

www.ammo-oracle.com

^ it takes a LONG time to load, but is a great little summary (well, fairly little ) source on the wound ballistics of the various 5.56mm rounds and in what effective bullets need to do to incapacitate someone reliably (ignoring psychological factors that you cannot predict at all obviously)

 

[Crito]

Jauntry, you seem to still miss the obvious point of this fourm which is to discuss matters not insult.

Maybe it is time you learned what I 'do' exactly so you can comprehend exactly who you are dealing with before you start going and making insults, and random claims about my ability to read your posts.

My specific course of study would be more directly defined as a form of logical comprehension. You more likely (or in your case less likely) know of it as philosophy. Thats right, I use the tounge as my weapon mainly, although I'm not trying to fight here I'm trying to discuss and you seem to be getting in a way. So, in a nutshell, don't mess with someone who can, and will, verbaly take you down unless you know what your doing, because if you do, you'll wind up with a verbal balisitics wound compromising your whole torso. Understand? I don't know what your impression of 'americans' are down in australia, but not all of us are idiots, and I assure you I am not one either.

So, like I said, either you stop making insulting posts and take this as it is, which is a dicussion forum (which meplat, thank you, you're at least taking this in the polite, and cohesive manner of discussion, and your words seem more respectible than jauntry's), or your posts will be ignored from now on, not to mention reported because your starting to really annoy me.

Take a lesson from meplat, look at his posts. Fairly precise, informative, and above all, non insulting.

 

[jaunty]

Jauntry, you seem to still miss the obvious point of this fourm which is to discuss matters not insult.

Maybe it is time you learned what I 'do' exactly so you can comprehend exactly who you are dealing with before you start going and making insults, and random claims about my ability to read your posts.

My specific course of study would be more directly defined as a form of logical comprehension. You more likely (or in your case less likely) know of it as philosophy. Thats right, I use the tounge as my weapon mainly, although I'm not trying to fight here I'm trying to discuss and you seem to be getting in a way. So, in a nutshell, don't mess with someone who can, and will, verbaly take you down unless you know what your doing, because if you do, you'll wind up with a verbal balisitics wound compromising your whole torso. Understand? I don't know what your impression of 'americans' are down in australia, but not all of us are idiots, and I assure you I am not one either.

So, like I said, either you stop making insulting posts and take this as it is, which is a dicussion forum (which meplat, thank you, you're at least taking this in the polite, and cohesive manner of discussion, and your words seem more respectible than jauntry's), or your posts will be ignored from now on, not to mention reported because your starting to really annoy me.

Take a lesson from meplat, look at his posts. Fairly precise, informative, and above all, non insulting.

Aw, you're a philosopher. Well, that's just super. Here, have an image macro;

Now, why don't you take a trip over to off topic, because that's where the real arguing takes place. I just took on two people at once, and I won, so your ePenising means nothing to me. You have so much to learn about this place, my friend. Here's the first thing; UNLESS IT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH GUNS, YOUR OCCUPATION MEANS NOTHING! And while I'm on the topic, when the hell did anybody even ask what you do for a living?

Now, I do things my way. My way is aggressive, because I can't stand idiots. I was very nice to you in my first post, and many will attest that I don't often let people off with such niceness. So please, for the love of god, keep it on topic, as I have been. By all means, attack me. I welcome it, but don't drag a thread away from the topic doing it. I didn't miss the point of anything, and I did discuss exactly what the issue was. I'm just so fucking fantastic though, and so multitalented, that I managed to insult you at the same time, though I'm starting to get the impression you're the sort of person who sues local council because they trip over a crack in the sidewalk. I guess insulting you isn't as hard as it is for others. I've heard of thin skinned, but are you made of fucking rice paper or something?

Now, seriously, who the hell do you think you are? You storm in here, I say one bad word about you, and all of a sudden you think you can force me to change the posting style that's served me well for over three years? You moron. Go ahead, report me. Here's the link to PM Keganator: http://forums.beyondunreal.com/private.php?do=newpm&u=23483

Tell him what a bad bad man I am, and that I called you names. Tell him that I posted an insulting picture! Get him to CC me his response. I want to laugh.

You're kidding yourself if you think you can arrive at some place and instantly be demanding people change to suit your ideas of what the place should be. If you want to ignore me, then go ahead and do it, you wouldn't be the first, and I'm sure you won't be the last, but if you carry on the "Do what I say because I say so" routine, don't expect anything but hostility out of me. In case you missed it the three other times I said it; YOU'VE BEEN HERE FOR LESS THAN A WEEK. STOP POSTING, START READING, AND TRY TO GAIN AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE ATMOSPHERE OF THE FORUMS.

Now that you've killed your own thread by taking what began as 3 lines of me being me, and turning it into 3 or 4 posts, try adhering to this simple rule for at least 45 minutes: read more, post less.

What the hell does America have to do with anything? What the hell does philosophy have to do with anything, are you a soccer mum, and why the hell are you taking everything so god damn seriously? Is being called a dumbass seriously the worst thing that's ever happened to you? If yes, then please, leave campus, get some experience in the real world.

Here's the ADD version: Shut up. If you've got a problem with something I said, send me a private message and bitch at me there, so as not to destroy threads with your threats of a "verbal ballistic wound". You're lecturing me on ettiquette while you write all these posts that have nothing to do with anything, as well as being the EXACT reason the Private Message system exists. Rock on, Champion.

I'd love to say something on topic, but there's really nothing left to say. I guess the best contribution I can give is this link, which contains the originals of the profiles I posted, as well as several others (Scroll down to "Wound Profile Illustrations"); http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

I hope it's of some use to you, Freshmeat.

 

[NTKB]

Crito, dont waste your time with Jaunty. He was being nicer than usual in the beginnning of this thread but now hes back to his old egomania, self thrilling ways. I think he masterbates (8?) times a day.

If you really wanna piss him off and see some fire just act retarded and call him names like a kid. Then he gets really worked up. And welcome to the forums btw.

 

[Meplat]

Jaunty-Regarding my comments on M2AP, and the German SSBall, I cited specefic loads for a reason. They do not produce a large temporary, and a very small permanent. There are many cases from WW1, and WW2 where the only "treatment" given was a pressure bandage over the entrance and exit wound. Shot placement with penetrative projectiles is very critical. The better they penetrate, the more stable they tend to be, and thus, the less effective they are on soft targets.

Look at the pretty anatomical diagram you posted. See the large spaces to either side of the "central corridor"? A shot through there will hit a lung, tear up some muscle, and produce a fatality, IF they panic, and do not get medical help in a reasonable amount of time. But, if one applies measures to stop/reduce the bleeding, and reduce the collapse of the affected lung, one needs to only worry about infections.

There are many places where one can be shot with a penetrative bullet, and not suffer unduly.

Freshmeat-OCIW posted some superb ones. Most of my refrences are printed, or were printed. Most of my comments are based on personal opinions, and may have little attaching them to reality.

Meplat-(More polite in print than in person. I guess.)

 

[Crito]

Well, you did ask for it, and here goes. Feel lucky that the first post I wrote up got ate by the boards cause it went into far more detail
-----------------------------------------

Jauntry, you said your way of talking is agressive, and to get used to it:

"Now, I do things my way. My way is aggressive, because I can't stand idiots. I was very nice to you in my first post, and many will attest that I don't often let people off with such niceness." - jauntry

If how he replied to my posts is nice I'd hate to see how you respond to others. Anyway, the job of the forums is to discuss precisely and to respect other peoples posts (while explaining why their reasoning is right or wrong WITHOUT insulting them), therefore, your way of doing things isn't, and never has been correct, because it insults others. By insulting others, rather than simply just talking in a simple, non threatening manner, you not only discourage people from posting their own ideas (which may or may not be correct) but you also undermine the meaning of the board which is allow construtive discussion (insults are not constructive). Therefore, by insulting people, including myself on this board, you do not make it a productive discussion. Lets sum this up to make it easier for you to comprehend:

[The forums are a place for produtive discussion.

A productive discussion requires people to listen to what others have to say and reply with a relevant, and non insulting, answer.

You reply with mainly relevant, but still direclty insulting answers.

If this was a off topic area, insults may have been appropriate as the moderators would accept.

This is not an off topic area.

Therefore, you not holding a productive discussion, not because you don't include relevant information, but because you include insulting remarks.]

-----

2ndly, you asked for me to take it into a private setting:

"You're lecturing me on ettiquette while you write all these posts that have nothing to do with anything, as well as being the EXACT reason the Private Message system exists." - jauntry

Well, the problem with that is, your doing your insulting publicly, and if this is your style (agressive and insulting), then it affects more than just me, but the whole board. Therefore, it is a public matter.

------

3rd, you said that I should take a look around the the atmosphere of the forums before I start making requests reguarding your posting methods:

"YOU'VE BEEN HERE FOR LESS THAN A WEEK. STOP POSTING, START READING, AND TRY TO GAIN AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE ATMOSPHERE OF THE FORUMS." - jauntry


Well, your posting methods DO NOT reflect the posting of most of the people in this thread, or community. Meplat hasn't insulted me, he has actualy been a very nice contribution to this discussion. No one else has insulted me, they've just added their imput. You on the other hand, have purposely, and directly insulted me, without reason. Therefore, your own mehtods of posting do not reflect the general public idea of a constructive post.

--------

Moving on, you said, and, again I quote:

"...but if you carry on the "Do what I say because I say so" routine, don't expect anything but hostility out of me."

Jauntry, I give REASONS for why someone should or should not do you something. I never said do something because I say so, or anything in that manner, I always give logical reasons for my requests. Therefore, I do not have a "Do what I say because I say so" routine, and what your saying is not only a lie, but compeltely untrue.

-------

Another thing jauntry, just because you have been posting here for 3 years doesn't mean the method you've been posting with is good, or has even been good/acceptable. You've just been getting away with it somehow.-

-------

Lastly, you said, what does my profession (or course of study) of philosophy have to do with guns?

"Here's the first thing; UNLESS IT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH GUNS, YOUR OCCUPATION MEANS NOTHING!" - jauntry

Your right, it doesn't have anything to do with guns. But, it does have to do with your ability to get away with insulting me. I said, if you had actualy read my post carefuly, that you don't want to start directly insulting me because I use words as my weapons, and you don't want to mess with someone with a sharp tounge.

"My specific course of study would be more directly defined as a form of logical comprehension. You more likely (or in your case less likely) know of it as philosophy. Thats right, I use the tounge as my weapon mainly, although I'm not trying to fight here I'm trying to discuss and you seem to be getting in a way. So, in a nutshell, don't mess with someone who can, and will, verbaly take you down" - Crito

I never connected guns with philosophy, I did however connect your personal insults to me to my ability to easily disprove and tear them apart (hense my expertise in the subject).

-------

Another thing before I finish, I'm not chaning any posting rules, nor am I putting any in place:

"You're kidding yourself if you think you can arrive at some place and instantly be demanding people change to suit your ideas of what the place should be." - jauntry

I'm just making the job of the forum more apparent, and showing how your posts are undermining the reason for its being (within this section at least)

-------

If anyone has any doubts though about your ability to insult anyone and everyone, just look at some of the things his says:

"My way is aggressive, because I can't stand idiots."

"Here's the ADD version: Shut up. If you've got a problem with something I said, send me a private message and bitch at me there..."

---Sidenote---

Philosophy, or critical thinking rather, has to do with everything. This may be slightly debatable, but being able to think clearly is good in any situation. If you want to discuss it further, this, I agree, should be private.

--------

2ndly, you said, and I quote:

"I just took on two people at once, and I won, so your ePenising means nothing to me."

So what? Can you prove you won this apparent argument? What difference does it make if you did win it, does it make you any more correct in this one? Is it supposed to scare me that you participated in another argument? Quite simply, that was irrellevant.

---Sidenote End---