I just want to know...

[Gaia]

I think thats really the issue, theres really 2 groups in the INF community IMHO, one is the "vanilla" INF crowd thats mostly rushars and are TDM types. The other (smaller) group is the old RAv2 crowd thats mainly interested in teamplay and actually accomplishing objectives. Being a member of the second group, I am frequently the target of the "OMG CAMPOR" comments...

Before 2.9 came out the two groups were effectivly seperated by RA, with 2.9 now we have an opportunity to mix with the other group and maybe grow our numbers. I believe that after a while ppl will tire of the childish BS on the TDM servers and come back to the team games...

I think that over-simplifies things a little. I used to be a vanilla player - I enjoy EAS. I had a go at TDM but was very quickly bored, as now I have got used to EAS with its objectives. I know you said vanilla players were 'mostly' rushers & TDM types, and not 'all', and thankyou for making that distinction, but I still think there are a lot of us ex-vanilla players around, and we take both teamplay and the objectives seriously. When I look at the names on TDM servers, I don't recognise many of them as vanilla players from 2.86, so I think there is a bit of mix on there, and possibly thats where a few people new to 2.9 have ended up?

I know this has been said before, but if the EAS and DTAS servers are empty, try jumping on one. How many other people are staring at their browsers not joining because the servers look empty. Several times recently I have jumped on an empty EAS server, and before long its started to fill up nicely.

 

[mat69]

@Beppo I would not mind to make those ini entries for two or maybe three DS maps (they often have a better layout for such a mutator imo), but that could take a while because I am on the way to finish school. (but now I have a bit spare time )

 

[shan]

Personally, I wish Shan would take the TDM server down for a week to see if people would flock back to EAS.

That just won't work (not to mention that I won't do it since I like TDM). When I first converted the TDM server over to DTAS, I got tons of e-mail and complaints asking me to put it back to TDM. Some of the people that asked may even surprise you. Irregardless this all goes back to letting people play what they want. I do not think you are going to build a good EAS community by killing the TDM servers so that people have to play EAS, because people do not have to play anything. Instead, focus your efforts on finding out what people find more appealing about TDM than EAS and get some aspects of that into the EAS maps.

The only thing me closing down my servers will do is take an already thinning fan base and kill it that much more. I just do not understand why you all do not see that. You assume that without TDM or DTAS people will suddenly play EAS, a game mode they have shown very little interest in. I alternatively suggest they will just go play a different game. For this reason alone, the servers are there to stay (although threads like these sometimes make me think otherwise

We don't have alot of players. Now there are some freaks who like TDM (yes, there really are such ppl). These people like their own servers or TDM in general and join at 14:00 AM waiting for others to join.

Now a meek INF player who likes EAS or DTAS wants to play some INF. He starts INF and sees a TDM server which has 1 player on. All others are empty. Now he has a conflict. Either he joins on a DTAS/EAS server and waits for others or he joins the TDM server and shoots some people. Since he wants to play and not to wait he will most likely join the TDM server.

Now another INF player who like EAS or DTAS wants to play some INF. He starts INF and sees a TDM which has 2 players on. All others are empty. ......

After some time the TDM server is full with ppl who don't like TDM :/

Sorry Cleeus, but I ain't buying that one either. First off, there are a large number of players that never play EAS. Seconly, I have watched the EAS servers clear out more than once when players moved off to TDM or DTAS for various reasons. I have also seen many occasions where people come by and ask players to go to the EAS server....sometimes some leave, sometimes some don't but the TDM or DTAS server never clears out. Even more hillarious about your suggestion is that you suggest people will join a server and play a game they do not want to play just because there are people there. If your theory is right, it always has to start out with at least one person choosing to play alone on the TDM servers instead of the EAS servers. Find out why that person made there choice and you may have something.

We have had this discussion over and over and over and I still do not get how any of your figure that TDM is killing the game. If you run an amusement park and all of your attendees start going to water park next door, you have two choices. You can either cry in your beer or you can add water rides to your park to get the people back. If people are flocking to TDM, find out why and that will tell you what to change in EAS to get them there. And if the best answer you can come up with is calling them newbs or CSers, then maybe the reason they are not there has more to do with them not wanting to play with you than not wanting to play EAS.

One thing I most definately agree with in this thread is, if you do not like TDM or DTAS, then do not join the servers. But don't ask me to close them because too many people are playing the game they like instead of the one you do.

Shan

/edit

I just wish INF 2.9 excluded the TDM game all together

I can honestly say you are playing with fire here. If there had been no TDM, I would no longer be a part of this community and I know there are others that share that opinion. Personally, I am the opposite of many of you. I love TDM and they EAS makes a good diversion. Change the game to alienate the players like me and you will not help the INF community. All I can say is thank the gods that you don't run the INF development team.

 

[shan]

Why doesn't everyone put their money where they mouths are and set up some times to play EAS games? There are 13 people on this "Lynch TDM" thread. If all of you would get onto a server and play some EAS, people will join and you will have your game.

That would be a much more effective way to increase EAS play than this thread.

Shan

 

[keihaswarrior]

Well said Shan, I fully agree with you even though I personally hate TDM to my very core .. hehe.

There are only three reasons why I can think that people like TDM over DTAS or EAS.
1) They like the scoreboard. People get a certain satisfaction about seeing their performance scored so they can get immediate feedback on how well they played. They also like being "at the top."
2) The TDM server contains maps that are small and fast paced. Players don't usually have to sit out long due to this, and the round timer. The DTAS server has some rather large maps with no round timer, that lead to longer rounds. If you die quickly, then you have to wait a long time which turns some people off I think.
3) They don't really have the patience or the inclination to work as part of a team.

 

[[121st]Kettch]

According to "player performance" i think it's not about what the game tells me, but what i know for myself.
The problem is that almost every single game out there does it the other way round and thus people EXPECT to see scoreboards. Anyway we know that INF is not the standard game.
But after some nice matches yesterday on several EAS servers i also agree with Shan: It's not about shutting down the TDM servers, it's about joining the EAS servers.
If you join at prime-time (around 20:00 to 00:00 CET) you just have to join one empty server and wait for 20 minutes. After 5 minutes, someone will join, another 5 minutes and another one joins. Things develop rather quickly then and after 20 minutes you should have a full server.

So let's try to fill up some good EAS servers and i bet it will be the TDM servers which will be abandoned. At least for some time.

 

[Crowze]

Shan, could you explain to me why you like TDM? I started playing inf a fairly long time back (2.85), but got bored of it very quickly and went back to TO. Once I found 2.86 was released (actually got it some time after it was released), again I gave it a try, and again I got bored quickly. So, I tried it out online, joined a well-known popular server (AFA) and was instantly hooked on RA and TAS.

My point? TDM for me gets very repetative very quickly. It would be alright if people who played it actually played as a team, but 95% of the time everyone has been rushing off by themselves to try and score as many points as possible. This is not what Inf was meant to be about.

 

[Beppo]

@Beppo I would not mind to make those ini entries for two or maybe three DS maps (they often have a better layout for such a mutator imo), but that could take a while because I am on the way to finish school. (but now I have a bit spare time )

You can do the 'setup' right now even without knowing how the stuff will be placed in a ini file later on. So you don't need to wait till you have the mutator working before you can start to work.
Just edit the maps within UED, write down the 'names' of the objects that should be deleted and place the stuff you want to spawn at the proper locations, write down the classname, the location and rotation you placed it on and any other values you may changed (only standard stuff prefered, like texture, skin, collision sizes aso ... base Actor stuff).
This then develops into a list of objects with names and parameters that describe each of the random scenarios you place.
I can then use these infos, write a mutator and the needed ini files.

If you want to test out your scenarios, simply save the map under a new name and test it out.

...

To the TDM stuff...
TDM is a valid game mode and it makes fun for many players out there. If you want my opinion then TDM is fun for me too if played as teams and not with too many solo rushers.
I cannot understand the folks that play ie ResearchSite and at startup they start running left around the buildings, while arming a nade, then throwing it into a passage while facing the side of the building and then running into the same 'hideout' as last round. This done in each and every round in exactly the same way...
Or folks that fire off their 40mms at startup always facing exactly the same spot, nading the spawnarea (or close to it) of the enemy. Other team runs out of the spawnregion and normally noone ever gets killed this way.
Other examples can be found in every map out there of course.
Is that fun? TDM can be played in way better 'styles' than this imo.

DTAS mixes this up a bit and so the startup action is normally a bit different. Well most times the rushing is still there cause everyone tries to run to THE spot he/she thinks to use as hideout or whatever, even without thinking about the possibility that the enemy can show up on the way to it... and also without caring for, cause dying is not really that hard to take... respawn will happen shortly after even if no respawns are setup cause the round times are pretty short in DTAS-terms normally. Well at least it is not only killing the enemy team here.

Again, for me it highly depends on the folks you play with. Every game mode can be fun if played in the style you personally prefer. As simple as this.

 

[keihaswarrior]

TDM has a basic and underlying flaw though IMO. IF TDM is played to win, then it is extremely boring because everyone will camp...

In both DTAS and EAS, one team is forced to be the attacker and must therefore take the initiative.

In TDM, the way to win is to simply kill the other team. Therefore, there is no reason to attack when you can simply wait in a very good spot for the other team to come to you.... but if both teams are playing to win then they will both end up camping until one loses patience.

Lastly, if a team is killed except for one remaining player, then that player should go hide. If the player can avoid the enemy for 120 seconds, then the round will reset and the team get another chance to win.

.... This means that TDM only works when players rush and attempt to play for themselves. If people work as a team, then they will simply end up camping and it won't be fun for anyone.

 

[mat69]

Good said Shan.
That's not true kw. Who says what teamwork is? Imo teamwork is also if you split the team in small troops of 2 or 3.
Everyone here is talking about how a system could be destroyed, how a base could be camped there ... but hey this is INF not CS. There aren't many players and so there aren't many idiots whose "job" it is to destroy other's fun. I never was killed in the spawn of an EAS map. Only once on Ruin but there the enemy did not know that the attacker spawn is placed there. Who was killed more than three times in his spawn?

@Beppo, so I should simply jot down the names of the objectives which should be deletated and then I should move the to the new location and jot down their properties? Another thing, uhm it's a bit embarrassing but how to rotate objectives a proper way (unless editing its properties)? I know that you can press Crtl but then it just moves that slowly that it's just ****.

 

[Crowze]

You've got a very flawed sense of logic, although I agree with what you're trying to argue.

 

[shan]

Crowze, it is hard for me to pin down why I like TDM. First off, TDM games never get boring to me. Every game is somewhat different. Probably the big reason I prefer TDM over EAS is its simplicity (this is the same reason I like DTAS). It is simple so everyone more or less knows what needs to be done. Sometimes people use teamwork and sometimes they don't but in the end, I get to play and that is what I am there for. I really am not looking to Infiltration to be a soldier simulator...for the same reasons that I don't look to Microsoft Flight Simulator for a flight sim experience. In general, real life is not that fun, so why play a game that emulates real life so closely that it becomes tedious. That said, I do enjoy EAS when playing clan matches....it is a completely different experience. On the same token a good clan-Clan TDM match can also be a lot of fun.

In the end, I am of the opinion that you allow Infiltration to continue to support as many game modes as possible and people will find something that they like.

For me, it is usually TDM or DTAS, with occassional EAS matches. For others it is the reverse. But that is why INF is so cool...it can make us all happy.

Shan

 

[Beppo]

.... This means that TDM only works when players rush and attempt to play for themselves. If people work as a team, then they will simply end up camping and it won't be fun for anyone.

sorry kw, but this is a logic I cannot follow seriously...
The goal of TDM is to kill the enemy team. And working as a team does not mean that you start camping then automatically. Noone does this out there or understands teamplay as camping in any way. Teamplay is way more... it is working together as a team. Means covering each other while moving around thru the map, sharing what you see and hear via communication aso aso. Not sitting in a spot and waiting for the other team to show up. And by far not rushing around alone and playing Rambo...

@Beppo, so I should simply jot down the names of the objectives which should be deletated and then I should move the to the new location and jot down their properties? Another thing, uhm it's a bit embarrassing but how to rotate objectives a proper way (unless editing its properties)? I know that you can press Crtl but then it just moves that slowly that it's just ****.

Write down the objects/actors names they have within UED if you want stuff to be deleted. The unique names are stored in their properties ->Object->Name. Pin down their class name too of course ... properties ->Object->Class.
For things you want to be added you should write down their class name, location, rotation and special settings like already said. To let objects rotate.... use CTRL+RightMouseButton. This rotates it way fast normally cause the rotation speed depends on how fast you move your mouse.

 

[keihaswarrior]

Ok, since you guys didn't get my point... let me make an example:

Installation2002, a map played in TDM often.

Any smart clan playing to win, will camp inside their spawn. The other team is then forced to come through one of the three doors. The smart clan that camped will simply mow them down as soon as they touch the doors. This is smart teamwork.


Another example:
Kosovo, a great map. Any smart clan playing this map in TDM will simply run into one of the buildings and camp the only two doors. They are now basically impossible to kill unless they do something really stupid.

....I think I made my point. Any clan using smart tactics, will just pick a spot to camp and force the other team to attack and lose.

 

[[121st]Kettch]

Any smart clan playing to win, will camp inside their spawn. The other team is then forced to come through one of the three doors. The smart clan that camped will simply mow them down as soon as they touch the doors. This is smart teamwork.

Nothing what can't be countered with proper assault tactics. There WERE TDM-maps with unattackable bases, but only a very few ones. DocksideMillEd would be a good example.
Anyway, in all the 2.86 times i've seen it as the lesser challenge to defend (please take notice that i don't use the word "camp" for it's not the proper term here) but to attack. An organized assault is way more difficult than an organized defense.

 

[MP_Duke]

In 2.86 it was harder to "defend" due to the highspeed movement. If you didn't sprint in most maps, you would've surely gotten killed quickly.

Nothing what can't be countered with proper assault tactics. There WERE TDM-maps with unattackable bases, but only a very few ones. DocksideMillEd would be a good example.
Anyway, in all the 2.86 times i've seen it as the lesser challenge to defend (please take notice that i don't use the word "camp" for it's not the proper term here) but to attack. An organized assault is way more difficult than an organized defense.

 

[zeep]

I'm glad that people can enjoy inf with different gamemodes. Don't let inf narrow down to one gamemode. imo.

But, what is annoying are people joining the dtas server and play tdm. Dtas is a team oriented gamemode. Thats the way its ment to be played. I hate to be the only one there making a team effort while the rest is tdm-ing.

 

[yurch]

I really am not looking to Infiltration to be a soldier simulator...for the same reasons that I don't look to Microsoft Flight Simulator for a flight sim experience. In general, real life is not that fun, so why play a game that emulates real life so closely that it becomes tedious.

The purpose of using 'realism' for games is to both add immersion for the players and general depth to the gameplay. Emulating tedious things is not required for either goal.

Speaking of tedium, I 'made' TAS shortly after watching a two and a half hour clanmatch where the 'winning' team had to constantly grenade a member of thier own just so the last player timer would reset, so the match wouldn't take any longer. That's some seriously flawed gameplay there.

 

[Beppo]

Ok, since you guys didn't get my point... let me make an example:

Installation2002, a map played in TDM often.

Any smart clan playing to win, will camp inside their spawn. The other team is then forced to come through one of the three doors. The smart clan that camped will simply mow them down as soon as they touch the doors. This is smart teamwork.


Another example:
Kosovo, a great map. Any smart clan playing this map in TDM will simply run into one of the buildings and camp the only two doors. They are now basically impossible to kill unless they do something really stupid.

....I think I made my point. Any clan using smart tactics, will just pick a spot to camp and force the other team to attack and lose.

You really think that sitting in a building with only two ways out is something to survive and hold?
Well there are many ways to get everyone inside killed using one way or another. Grenades, suppressive fire aso can be used to mow down the enemy hiding inside. With a coordinated team attacking, the doors will be open in a short amount of time without the defenders being able to really stop them. And from that time on they will have a hard time to stay in one piece while grenades and other projectiles fill the room.
Sure, defending is a bit easier to coordinate than attacking, but if you decide to lock yourself up into a specific building you can call the coroner right away most times too.
If your logic would work, then why do attackers often win in EAS? Sure not every map has easy to defend buildings, but some have. And even in these maps the attackers win pretty regulary. Take Iraq, Island, BorderTown, Tuscany, ACB, Frozen aso aso... all feature objectives placed in buildings/rooms that have a set number of entrances. Sure some are easier to defend as others but attackers always have a chance to win there too.

Beppo

 

[[121st]Kettch]

In 2.86 it was harder to "defend" due to the highspeed movement. If you didn't sprint in most maps, you would've surely gotten killed quickly.

Anyway that's not what i'm talking about. Read Beppo's reply, he got quite a nice description of how to clear rooms. And that's what we did in 2.86, nothing about rushing but about assault tactics.