Epic Rumour Mill Churns

[[SAS]Solid Snake]

OK, Flak, if you say so... Would love it if you could give us the inside scoop on what's really going on over there and what their plan is to revitalize the UT-on-the-PC franchise. Perhaps my comments were a little rash and I didn't mean to imply that they don't care about it in terms of feeling affection or concern for their baby, but I meant it in more of a business and financial context.

I'm pretty sure Flak actually works at Epic.

I was chatting to someone I met at a lan two days ago, and he said that UT3 was a really good game. He hadn't played the previous versions of Unreal Tournament, but perhaps that's part of the equation as to why perhaps Unreal Tournament 3 didn't not succeed commercially as well as it could have. Unreal Tournament over the years have continually raised the bar in what we expected out of our online FPS game, and some features they've added over time were soon expected in other FPS games... but unfortunately it seems that UT3 dropped a lot of those features and delivered a somewhat 'traditional' FPS. The problem is, is that it is traditional. There was nothing there for it stand out in comparison to all of the other online FPS's out there...

I think the people at Epic still love and care about the Unreal Universe and particularly Unreal Tournament. Unreal Tournament has been the show case for Unreal Engine since Unreal Engine 1.x and it hasn't changed.

Speaking from a modding point of view, Unreal Engine 3 is simply a very complex engine now. It's very difficult for a newbie to come in and hack something together now, particularly compared to Unreal Engine 1.x and Unreal Engine 2.x. Together with the complexity of the engine and the game's poor online numbers probably explains why there isn't a strong presence within the modding community. ... Still, some of us still do it.

 

[TheIronKnuckle]

Not only is mapping on uengine one easier, it's also more fun. UT99 is more fun to play then ut3, so mapping and modding for that engine is more worth it (not bashing ut3, just saying the facts)

of course that is all very imo

 

[Trustingsoup]

POST #45

UT3: 1 Million (or so) sales across 3 platforms in 1 year.
Gears of War 2: 3 million sales on one platform in 1 1/2 months.

Which one do you think Epic (as a company) cares about more?

One game sells more copies than another. Therefore they don't care about the game that sells fewer. That's a really weak and illogical argument.

I'm not talking about speculation here. I've met a bunch of the guys that worked on the UT games. I've spent time talking with them about it. And let me tell you something... they love UT.

That's not to say there aren't things wrong with any of the games, but I can assure that the reason is NOT because the artists, designers, and coders do NOT care about the game.

 

[R.Flagg]

Speaking from a modding point of view,..

I have -for the most part- long abandoned these rehashed (ad infinitum) conversations, but I just couldn't help but hitting the reply button to this one. Because I expect more from SS, I have a hard time 'letting him get away with anything', so to speak.

To paraphrase this guy I know ... "UT3 is not even remotely mod friendly". He went on to say "I'd say that the likes of Quake & Half Life 2 allow more modification".

I could go on, but anyway, please do not try to make it sound as if it's some sort of issue like 'only the big boys can mod it because it's complex'. And besides, just because some are still going at it, doesn't mean we have the 'complexity' in and of mods like we did before, do we? Simply stating that modding is happening, does not mean you're seeing the depth of what we've seen in the past.

(Yes, I know you actually said Unreal Engine, but the implication was clearly UT3).

The fact is you simply cannot do things in UT3 that you could do in previous versions. I could have quoted you (again) and others for details, but there's really no need. This has all been said before anyway.

I'll just let lie the comments about it failing because it was a "traditional" FPS. You could close your eyes and throw darts at this forum to find rebuttals to that one (granted they're not all reasonable rebuttals, but if so, just throw another dart, you'll find some). Even though I couldn't resist replying to the modding part, I'll leave that one alone.

Peace. Vote Quimby.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

I think someone who has an engine license would know a little bit more about how mod friendly the engine is.

 

[R.Flagg]

I think someone who has an engine license would know a little bit more about how mod friendly the engine is.

I'm guessing what you really meant is ... "someone who is contracting for a licensee". Well, who do you think I'm quoting?

Oh, and be sure to catch the part about saying 'engine', but implying UT3. I made that clear, did I not?

 

[Sir_Brizz]

I'm guessing what you really meant is ... "someone who is contracting for a licensee". Well, who do you think I'm quoting?

Oh, and be sure to catch the part about saying 'engine', but implying UT3. I made that clear, did I not?

I was talking about solidSnake and I don't care if he is licensing or working for a licensee, it's the same end result. He has access to the engine code.

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't really matter who you're quoting. I'm not sure what people are doing that they are hitting snags with on UT3 modding, but for most mod projects I can't imagine they are having that many problems with the majority of things if they have previous experience with the engine.

And, yes, I did intentionally say "engine" in my post and not UT3.

 

[[SAS]Solid Snake]

I could go on, but anyway, please do not try to make it sound as if it's some sort of issue like 'only the big boys can mod it because it's complex'. And besides, just because some are still going at it, doesn't mean we have the 'complexity' in and of mods like we did before, do we? Simply stating that modding is happening, does not mean you're seeing the depth of what we've seen in the past.

The increasing complexity of the engine makes it difficult to mod because the engine itself has grown very large. I'm not saying that people are annoying or frustrated at this itself, but it does make the learning curve steeper.

Artists now have to have technical proficiency with shaders before they can make some really nice looking stuff, otherwise they wind up with the same look as every other Unreal Engine 3 game in terms of lighting and so forth.

Level designers now have Kismet to create complex script triggers which can make their maps more dynamic, but have larger impacts on the programmers.

Programmers now have to contend with at least three different interfaces to access parts of the engine, which are Kismet, Unrealscript and C++. C++ is of course unavailable to them directly (but it is indirectly as Steve P. has been very kind to release implementation snippets on the mailing list]. Unrealscript is slightly more complex than it was before, and certainly with almost four years of code in Unreal Tournament 3, the code tree is rather messy with multiple implementations etc for a single feature. Lastly, we have Kismet which seems to override Unrealscript half the time and can be frustrating to debug.

The engine's stability is interesting. It certainly feels a lot less stable than Unreal Engine 2 when it comes to using it. You can make a compilable script which will crash the engine providing no real debug information. You get a generic "File not found" error, which typically makes no sense and the logs don't help either.

What I was meant to say RFlagg, was that perhaps the state of the modding scene for Unreal Tournament 3 can be due to the sheer steep hill climb that people have to learn before they can modify and create even the simplest of mods and mutators. There are very stubs left for the modding community to use, that it makes it a real pain in the ass to even try to extend the game.

 

[[GU]elmur_fud]

I have -for the most part- long abandoned these rehashed (ad infinitum) conversations, but I just couldn't help but hitting the reply button to this one. Because I expect more from SS, I have a hard time 'letting him get away with anything', so to speak.

To paraphrase this guy I know ... "UT3 is not even remotely mod friendly". He went on to say "I'd say that the likes of Quake & Half Life 2 allow more modification".

I could go on, but anyway, please do not try to make it sound as if it's some sort of issue like 'only the big boys can mod it because it's complex'. And besides, just because some are still going at it, doesn't mean we have the 'complexity' in and of mods like we did before, do we? Simply stating that modding is happening, does not mean you're seeing the depth of what we've seen in the past.

(Yes, I know you actually said Unreal Engine, but the implication was clearly UT3).

The fact is you simply cannot do things in UT3 that you could do in previous versions. I could have quoted you (again) and others for details, but there's really no need. This has all been said before anyway.

I'll just let lie the comments about it failing because it was a "traditional" FPS. You could close your eyes and throw darts at this forum to find rebuttals to that one (granted they're not all reasonable rebuttals, but if so, just throw another dart, you'll find some). Even though I couldn't resist replying to the modding part, I'll leave that one alone.

Peace. Vote Quimby.

I have to agree with SS on the modding point. For previous UT's I didn't need to know an ounce about coding to make a decent level now kismet is so much a part of the process making a map that is anything more then BSP and SM's pretty much requires it. I didn't need to know (much less be good at) high poly modeling either to make decent custom content. But I find that to be a added frustration. To add further insult to injury in that area. I learned lightwave for UT2k4 as max and maya concounded me. Even bought a copy of this haneously exspensive software. Now to use a lightwave model I must convert it in blender to ase and since models look like crap in UT3 unless they have NM's I have to make high poly versions of everything and bake out there normals, something lightwavedoesn't do, so I have to have quake4 and use it's renderNM function to bake my normals. And that just scratches the surface of making stuff for UT3 and I have been at it since UT99 and am not a newb.

Comparitively speaking UT3 is 10x harder to work with then UT2k4. It also does alot more and looks phenomonally better, so added complexity isn't a shock to me. The amount of stumbling blocks it has created is however.

It isn't impossable, but it can be overwhelming.

 

[R.Flagg]

It isn't impossable, but it can be overwhelming.

Ah, but that's the point I'm making. Some of it is simply impossible now.

Naturally I also agree on the 'complexity' issue. But that has been true to some extent for each step up the ladder through the years. What I'm saying is that to say that, and leave out the bits about native code and so forth, is to tell a half-truth.

As I said when we continued this discussion in IRC, ... having a great desire and much talent doesn't end the equation. At times, you can either mod around native code, or you can't.

There is a lot more than just the complexity of the engine which is preventing modding in UT3 from achieving the levels it has in previous versions (and that's not even getting into the playerbase issues at all, we're talking just about the game itself at this point).

 

[Sir_Brizz]

I tend to believe that most mod teams aren't going to run into problems that completely stop their progression on development.

 

[[GU]elmur_fud]

Ah, but that's the point I'm making. Some of it is simply impossible now.

Naturally I also agree on the 'complexity' issue. But that has been true to some extent for each step up the ladder through the years. What I'm saying is that to say that, and leave out the bits about native code and so forth, is to tell a half-truth.

As I said when we continued this discussion in IRC, ... having a great desire and much talent doesn't end the equation. At times, you can either mod around native code, or you can't.

There is a lot more than just the complexity of the engine which is preventing modding in UT3 from achieving the levels it has in previous versions (and that's not even getting into the playerbase issues at all, we're talking just about the game itself at this point).

I was refering to the sentiment that it is easy (or easily possible) vs. complex and problematic that I was getting as a vibe from the direction this thread has taken. I personally find it the latter so that was the side I was taking. It can be a right royal pain in the arse.

I personally don't believe in impossibilities, very difficult sure, requiring possibly haneous workarounds maybe, a rethink perhaps. But I hate impossibilities.

 

[WarTourist]

Yeah, they don't care about their own game. Give me a break.

That kind of stuff really makes me angry. You should talk to some of the guys that work on UT because they love the game. Where do you think many of them come from? They're fans of the game that got hired by building top-notch levels, mutators and mods.

There are reasons why things in the game are the way that they are, but it is NOT because they don't care about Unreal Tournament.

UT3 bashing is a bit of an extreme sport for some of the BUF fauna. They'd no sooner give that up than breathing .

There's still folks claiming UT3 PC was a console port !

I think someone who has an engine license would know a little bit more about how mod friendly the engine is.

I've been working on a number modding projects recently, and am completely amazed at how easy and powerful it is. So far, I've got working prototypes for single player-style campaigns, multiplayer focused gametypes, and a few very non-UT3 style games. I'm a freaking PRODUCER and I haven't been able to find anything I can't get working using unrealscript or kismet after a little digging. Claiming UT3 isn't mod friendly is acutely ridiculous.

Link to a mod you created, on ue3 or any other platform, before you make claims like that. Otherwise, it sounds like you're making things up . (edit: I'm not talking about Brizz )

 

[Mozi]

UT3 bashing is a bit of an extreme sport for some of the BUF fauna. They'd no sooner give that up than breathing .

Haha, well said!

 

[JohnDoe641]

UT3 bashing is a bit of an extreme sport for some of the BUF fauna. They'd no sooner give that up than breathing .

It takes a lot to make a die-hard fan of the Unreal series like me to become a rabid basher of the games latest reiteration. I feel it's warranted so I bash it and the company who made it.

Can you honestly say that the game is a a good state right now?

 

[Grobut]

There's still folks claiming UT3 PC was a console port !

I'm sure you'll find one or two, but most of us think its a classic multi-platform game.. IE it was made from the very start to never stray far from the confines of the weakest platform (the Console), so you guys woulden't have to reinvent the wheel when making the console versions.

The end result is the same difference, it doesen't matter what came first, only how it was designed and plays, and the final product looks, feels and opperates just like Console ports allways do, you can see all the tell tale compromises from the UI all the way down to the texture quality.

Actions speak louder than words, and you'd have to tell me quite a tale to convince me that compromises where not made to ease multi platform development of UT3.

 

[willhaven]

That kind of stuff really makes me angry. You should talk to some of the guys that work on UT because they love the game. Where do you think many of them come from? They're fans of the game that got hired by building top-notch levels, mutators and mods.

Case in point.

 

[WarTourist]

It takes a lot to make a die-hard fan of the Unreal series like me to become a rabid basher of the games latest reiteration. I feel it's warranted so I bash it and the company who made it.

Can you honestly say that the game is a a good state right now?

Absolutely.

Further you're welcome to bash it, but you should understand that the only thing accomplished is whatever enjoyment you derive from said bashing. You're certainly not helping the game in any way, shape, or form and it's not much of a stretch to see you are actually hurting it.

Nevertheless your call on how you spend your valuable time. Just have no illusions about "contributing" something to the game. You're most definitely not part of the solution.

Actions speak louder than words, and you'd have to tell me quite a tale to convince me that compromises where not made to ease multi platform development of UT3.

Hey, choose delusion over reality! No skin of my nose .

 

[TheIronKnuckle]

So i thought you weren't covering up for EPIC any more! Ah well, i suppose it just re-enforces what hal said:

That kind of stuff really makes me angry. You should talk to some of the guys that work on UT because they love the game. Where do you think many of them come from? They're fans of the game that got hired by building top-notch levels, mutators and mods.

GG Jeff. You must genuinely love ut3 to still be defending it even though you resigned. I respect that.

 

[UndeadRoadkill]

Hey, choose delusion over reality! No skin of my nose .

Help us understand, then. We know you guys know what goes into a PC game. Why did UT3 PC end up feeling so compromised and shaved down? A lot of us thought developing for the lowest common denominator seemed like a very likely reason. If that's not it, can you tell us more about it?