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dual handguns?

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by Krycek360, Dec 4, 2003.

  1. SaraP

    SaraP New Member

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    The .45ACP has greater stopping power than the 9mm due to its low velocity and heavy bullet, but it has inferior armor penetration for the same reason.

    All major militaries use FMJ rounds; JHPs and soft-points are forbidden by the Geneva Convention.
     
  2. sir_edmond

    sir_edmond In my own world

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    thats because we dont want to kill them jst incapacitate(sp?) them

    And if you want me to shut up just mail me a program to model everything and a tortorial and ill code it.!!! :mad:

    and stop flaming me Ive told you iam a dreamer!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad:
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2003
  3. spm1138

    spm1138 Irony Is

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    Fair enough.

    How did you get at their product listing?

    I couldn't see anything I could get at without a login and it looked like I had to own one or be a dealer to get a login (I hate living in Britain).
     
  4. Gnam

    Gnam Member

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    Actually, the UMP is also available in 9mm and .40 S&W. I think a .45 cal SMG would be interesting, but from what I hear the caliber and ROF would actually not make it that different from the MP5. Plus, IIRC it is used by litle to no militaries at this point because it's so new. The only reason why it's hit so many games allready is because it looks cool.
    You have plenty of options:
    1) Use ironsights if you want to snipe and still do CQB
    2) If you're set on using an acog then send in a team mate to get the cd for you
    3) Learn to use your pistol better. Aim for the face.
    4) Use the LAM on the SIG and hip shoot.
    5) Carry an MP5 or a shotgun as a sidearm and don't complain about running slow.
    This could be solved with binoculars, but untill that happens, just use the scope to make sure your target isn't a team mate (or just ask your team if anyone is at that location) then hip shoot the M203.
    Machine pistols are generally not use by military, they're basically self-defense weapons for use by paranoid civilians, body gaurds, or terrorists who need an automatic weapon they can hide in their coat or their breif case. The MP5 PDW and UZi are as close as you're going to get to machine pistols.
     
  5. sir_edmond

    sir_edmond In my own world

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    how about a micro-uzi its a a bit smaller than a uzi and even staller than a mini-uzi.
     
  6. RedMarlin[MERLIN]

    RedMarlin[MERLIN] New Member

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    Man, if you want go make this stuff. Do you think if you say you want this the team is just going to hop up and start making this just for YOU. I don't think you understand, you say your a dreamer and stop flaming you. Then stop suggesting things and go make it because no one else is going to make it for you.

    Personally I don't want an UMP is has a super slow RoF for a submachine gun so screw that I'd rather wait for the Mp5N.

    Suggesting weapons on here is utterly useless, we've suggested the L85a1 like the most popular British service bullpup and its still not getting implimented yet by the team. If your a dreamer then keep dreaming, don't tell me about it ;)

    Your going to have to wait and see if someone starts modeling and coding this stuff.

    Oh PS, buy the stuff yourself :p
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 8, 2003
  7. SaraP

    SaraP New Member

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    Got a gun dealer to log in for me, of course! Ah, the advantages of being a girl... :D
     
  8. SaraP

    SaraP New Member

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    The Twins had one in Matrix Reloaded, too.
     
  9. SaraP

    SaraP New Member

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    Flaming you? Hardly. I'm simply correcting the gross technical errors you've been making.
     
  10. Meplat

    Meplat Chock full-o-useless information

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    As a comment, (Or a quote rather) the Micro Uzi is "best used when engaged in a gunfight within a phonebooth".

    The Mini Uzi on the other hand is a work of art. Very controllable, with the reliability of it's larger ancestor.

    .45 ACP SMGS I predict will make a comeback not for their "power", but rather for their ability to deliver more when supressed than an equivalent 9x19MM SMG. Supressing the 9x19 effectively yields a SMG in .380 ACP. Supressing a .45 ACP SMG merely quiets it's bark without pulling it's teeth.

    Meplat-
     
  11. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    http://unreal.epicgames.com
    Hop to it. I've magically included a compiler special with your UT install.
     
  12. OICW

    OICW Reason & Logic > Religion

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    Errr, aren't most .45 loads subsonic?
     
  13. Tiffy

    Tiffy Back to champion the L85

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    I predict your in for a BIG surprise. Suppressors aren't usually found on militry weapons for a few very good reasons. Also .45ACP is not a good round for SMG's. SMG's will tend towards smaller calibres as you get more rounds for your bucks and troops using such weapons usually need more ammo to score a hit anyway. Other than FIBUA and as defensive weapons for 2nd line personel SMGs have very little use on the modern battle field. Assult rifles provide the same volume of fire but to a far greater range an accuracy.

    The reasons suppressors aren't common in the military are below. The first point is the principle reason: -

    They are expensive. Supressors can double or more the cost of a weapons system.

    They wear out quickly.

    They effect the performance of the weapon and accentuate differences in the quality of your ammunition.

    They add weight, bulk and move the balance point of the weapon.

    When your in a battle it is NOT necessary to hide the noise of a weapon. There are plenty more and some are probably making a lot more noise than you.

    When your defending or attacking a poisition, the fact that you are in a group of several persons probably supported by even more makes it highly unlikely the enemy forces will NOT see you quite quickly (once the attack starts).

    Suppressors are more easily damaged and more easy to clog with crud than a normal flash supressor (and a damned sight harder to clean if you have poked it in the mud).

    Finally Suppressors are hard to look after properly and are definately not what is regarded as a 'soldier proof' piece of kit.

    INF has too many suppressed weapons as it is and addition of more will not improve gameplay. All too oftern you know your being shot at by a supressed weapon but due to limitations of the game engine the additional signs you get IRL are missing such as the sound of the round passing (if supersonic) and the slap of it hitting the cover/ground around you. You also don't get to see a correct mark from this missed shot which can also indicate position.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2003
  14. [121st]Kettch

    [121st]Kettch New Member

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    I just have to come back to the very first post of this thread:
    I really agree with this. I would love to see such a mutator for holding two pistols or even two M16s. :)

    And before you re-start flaming around, may i draw your attention on this part of the quote:
    Thank you for your time.
     
  15. Rostam

    Rostam PSN: Rostam_

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    Then please shut up and dream. Your behaviour is the worst I've seen yet here in NVS. And for some reason I think you aren't even doing it on purpose. So hereby, please take this comment seriously and think about it.
     
  16. SaraP

    SaraP New Member

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    Yep. That's why they suppress nicely; since the full-power ammo's already subsonic, you don't have to trade power for quietness with reduced-power subsonic ammo.
     
  17. Meplat

    Meplat Chock full-o-useless information

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    Apples and oranges Tiffy. Granted, the average issue weapon is moving closer toward the SCHV (Small Caliber High Velocity) ideal. SMG's on the other hand are evolving toward being a specialists weapon. Police, and anti terrorist useage, where one does not need massive penetration (shooting innocents on the other side of a wall due to overpenetration is bad..) Also, the move toward supressors in A/T use, and police is to ease communication. A mag of 9x19 in a small room will give one a serious bit of tinitus for more than a day.

    Yes, supressors are expensive. This is due to the materials used which negate two of your points. Weight, and fragility. Just as firearms have evolved, so have supressors. Case in point? Early Sionics M-16 supressors were not able to handle more than a mag's worth of full auto fire before needing service. Current AWC M-16 cans just get warmer, suffering no damage.(the bore will suffer before the can) Reasons are the ability to computer generate gas flow within a supressor, as well as the collapse of the soviet union (Titanium became much cheaper) I've dealt with a M-16 supressor that reduces the report to that of a .22LR, and upon direction of the agent, fired literally nine 30 round magazines through it. No change in sound signature and the '16 seemed to put bullets where I desired from 25 to 300 odd yards. I was worried more for the rifle, than the can at this point. Really changed my perception of F/A supressors. Hell, I've seen supressors for ANM2.50 BMG's.

    Regarding the can affecting shot placement, or range, I'll counter with "Sometimes" . On a long range, precision rifle a supressor will affect the shot, due to altering barrel harmonics, as well as the base gas flow post bore.

    In a circumstance such as this, the range of the weapon itself would prove to be more of a benefit than a full supressor. At best, a tuned moderator would be all I'd consider.

    However I'm referring to projectiles fired from short stiff barrels, which are already travelling below the speed of sound. Range would not be an issue in house to house, or room clearing.

    Again, I'm not predicting SSMG's turning up in the hands of the basic grunt, instead they'll be in the hands of specialists.

    OCIW- Yes. They are. All the better to supress the noise.
     
  18. Tiffy

    Tiffy Back to champion the L85

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    Goods valid points. INF though is trying to simulate the battlefield experience of the 'average grunt' IMO (although some will argue its all Special Forces stuff).

    The problem with INF is maps are inconsistent. Some 'brick' walls appear to be made of paper and everything penetrats then while other seamingly similar walls are inpervious to even .50BMG at close range. If maps where more consistent we'd see a point to having an MP5 in .40 with low penetration and the P90 with it's armour piercing diddy rounds.

    The weight point and vunerability to damage are more to do with unbalancing the rifle than dramatically increasing the weight and a soldiers prepensity to stuff the muzzle into the dirt whenever the terrain changes underfoot.

    In a law-enforcment/counter-terrorism role suppressors are probably going to gain favour. The difference here is the weapon is better looked-after and the operator isn't relying on it to perform faultlessly for long periods of time. Weapons are checked just before an operation with faults being corrected and then usde for what may only be minutes. A soldier on the other hand draws his weapon and could be in the field with that weapon for weeks with nothing other than user maintenance to keep the weapon functioning.

    We need to define what INF is before this discussion makes any sence and I can't see that happening anytime soon ;)
     
  19. RedMarlin[MERLIN]

    RedMarlin[MERLIN] New Member

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    With inf 2k3 we will be able to see more that these are just average soldiers because right now it seems more like, as you say, special forces. Right now only like 16 people can join servers so it seems like more special forces because its such small teams. Hopefully with the coming of a new game engine we will be able to jam more people into servers and make it seem like an average soldier traveling with many people. I don't even know if this will happen with the 2k3 engine though might just be the same thing, in regular 2k3 I've seen severs with like 30 people in them though so only the future will tell. ;)
     
  20. Tiffy

    Tiffy Back to champion the L85

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    Your saying because only 16 people can join a server its more like special forces. To me that s just two fighting patrols meeting. Remember most armies these day have a section/squad of between 6 and 10 soldiers with the average being towards the 6 end of the line.

    Even when your involved in a large battle you operate in your section/squad and you may see a section/squad to either side of you in support. A company attack isn't 100 guys, shoulder to shoulder charging the bad guys. Its just 9 or 10 sections/squads doing there thing in co-operation (usually).

    Why do we need to wait for Inf2K. Inf is a section/squad level simulation of modern combat. That's what I think and stuff the special forces.
     

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