disturbingly differing dynamic displacement damage system of differentiatable doom
- Thread starter yurch
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geogob
Koohii o nomimasu ka?
The main problems is the fact you cant hit anyone when...
...there are playing the prone animation
...they are proning and leaning
...they look up or down all the way
Edit:Yurch plz fix the last one, its getting to me alot
...there are playing the prone animation
...they are proning and leaning
...they look up or down all the way
Edit:Yurch plz fix the last one, its getting to me alot
Guys, I don't know what exactly you all are talking about but I haven't seen any major problems like not being able to hit somebody PERIOD when doing certain things. The hitboxes might be a little fuxx0red (I have no idea) but you CAN still kill them, at least from my experience.
Game is stil more fun WITH the buggy ass hit boxes then without them... I do wish Yurch would finish off this mutator before doing RAv3...
I've never experienced a situation in INF where i thought for sure i hit someone but didn't harm them at all.
Agreed, the only problems I've have are trying to hit people who are across the map and who I can only see their head and it's about 4 pixels wide...Taque said:
It is easy to check. I will see if I can get online with one of two of my clanmates and we can test it. I was told prone leaning was bugged so I made it illegal on the server. If it is not, we can change that rule.
It'd be helpful if someone could spell out exactly what is wrong with the hit detection; last I checked they worked as well as could be expected, and I'm pretty sure yurch has got the same impression; if he hadn't, and it were fixable, and he still had any free time between sleeping through classes and stealing valuable copyrighted materials from his friends, it'd be fixed already.Taque said:
If the problem is with moving while prone, this may just be a take it or leave it kinda thing; it's way too hard to move the detection boxes with the inf soldier throughout a single animation. If it's just a particular prone position (maybe leaning on a slope, or leaning up at some angle, or... whatever) that's a good candidate for fixability.
My understanding is that the problem is when leaning while prone. Apparently the person is all but unhittable. I have not tested it myself, but several have commented on it.
[OT]
Ok this is going to sound stupid but...
Would it be possible to add some of the smaller features of RAv3 (ie not vectorised weapons) to BS4, like the strafing acceleration? Or would it be simplier to have seperate mods of whats done in RAv3 and then realease RAv3 "when it's done" with all the other smaller mods included (possibly BS4 as well, not to suggest that its a small mod.) Sorry for the ramble, perhpas this is better left in the RAv3 thread...
[/OT]
As for the hit boxes, yeah sometimes its hard to hit people, but I think at this point that has more to do with sight miss aligment and such. Although I have shot a team mate full of an enitre DE mag to the head only to see him survive with little to no effect. Maybe the head hit box is still a little messed up or more likely the helmet stops DE rounds, I dunno it was on SG-TDM at very close (ie point blank,) so perhaps it had more to do with weapon collision.
Ok this is going to sound stupid but...
Would it be possible to add some of the smaller features of RAv3 (ie not vectorised weapons) to BS4, like the strafing acceleration? Or would it be simplier to have seperate mods of whats done in RAv3 and then realease RAv3 "when it's done" with all the other smaller mods included (possibly BS4 as well, not to suggest that its a small mod.) Sorry for the ramble, perhpas this is better left in the RAv3 thread...
[/OT]
As for the hit boxes, yeah sometimes its hard to hit people, but I think at this point that has more to do with sight miss aligment and such. Although I have shot a team mate full of an enitre DE mag to the head only to see him survive with little to no effect. Maybe the head hit box is still a little messed up or more likely the helmet stops DE rounds, I dunno it was on SG-TDM at very close (ie point blank,) so perhaps it had more to do with weapon collision.
No.ravens_hawk said:
RAv3 can do these things because it modifies the playerpawn. Only one mutator can do this at a time, plus it's one of the main reasons RAv3 is in such an unfinished state.
You would need a third mutator to do this if I wanted BS4 compatible with anything.
geogob
Koohii o nomimasu ka?
Reply to mute and shan...
The first who "observed" a problem with hit detection where NTKB and me, along with other who I don't remember (a quick guess would be UN17, taque, duke, perhaps another GD and some DbD... but that's uninportant) when we beta tested the BS4 muty early on, on GD training/testing server.
=== test and results decription ===
The test was having one player being a building, prone and leaning out of the side (it was leaning on the left side to be more precise).
While the prone player was aiming (I'm not sure if it happen also when "hipped" because that quite a while since we have done those tests), another, about 25 meters away, shot at him.
The conclusion was that a part of the left arm was not covered by the hitdetection system. The test has not been done for the right side so no conclusions can be drawn for that side. By no mean have we concluded that the player cannot be hit while prone leaning. The conclusion was that a small part of the player (the arm) cannot be hit while prone leaning on the left side. This is particularly important in a situation like the one we tested, where most of the player is occulted by a structure.
I have layed down two hypothesis following those conclusions. The first and the more obvious one, which is the one every one takes for granted, is that BS4 is bugged and that it's multi-cylinder hit detection does not cover the arm. The second hypothesis I have suggested, is that the original Infiltration hit detection for prone leaning does not cover that region of the player. Hence, since BS4 is a post processing of an impact of the original hitbox from Infiltration, the detection cannot be made.
That being said, I have yet to verify the second hypothesis. In order to do that, I suggest the following simple test. Redo the test I have previously described with BS4 running. With this test establish clearly the "bugged" position and deficient impact zone (identified with screenshots). Then, turn BS4 off to go to the normal hit detection, and tryout the exact same position. If the same problem happens, it's a problem with the original hit detection and it means that INF 2.9 was bugged from day one.
=== My personal conclusion ===
I think people are overeacting a lot about this problem. Most of the body is still pretty much hittable, even when prone leaning. Some people clearly used this problem as an excuse for not being able to hit prone people. Of course it's harder to hit a prone player. As Tiffy said in another thread, when shot at, you don't start jumping around like a crazy bunny... you hit the ground. Why? because it's harder to shoot at someone prone.
This whole bugged prone things has been why over-hyped. Now people start accusing other of prone leaning like it was some sort of dirty hack or aimbot. Most of those who makes the most noise about this don't even know what the problem is and how important it is.
As i told yurch a while back on the test server, this problem needs to be on the "has to be fixed" list, but is not critical. That is still my opinion today.
The first who "observed" a problem with hit detection where NTKB and me, along with other who I don't remember (a quick guess would be UN17, taque, duke, perhaps another GD and some DbD... but that's uninportant) when we beta tested the BS4 muty early on, on GD training/testing server.
=== test and results decription ===
The test was having one player being a building, prone and leaning out of the side (it was leaning on the left side to be more precise).
While the prone player was aiming (I'm not sure if it happen also when "hipped" because that quite a while since we have done those tests), another, about 25 meters away, shot at him.
The conclusion was that a part of the left arm was not covered by the hitdetection system. The test has not been done for the right side so no conclusions can be drawn for that side. By no mean have we concluded that the player cannot be hit while prone leaning. The conclusion was that a small part of the player (the arm) cannot be hit while prone leaning on the left side. This is particularly important in a situation like the one we tested, where most of the player is occulted by a structure.
I have layed down two hypothesis following those conclusions. The first and the more obvious one, which is the one every one takes for granted, is that BS4 is bugged and that it's multi-cylinder hit detection does not cover the arm. The second hypothesis I have suggested, is that the original Infiltration hit detection for prone leaning does not cover that region of the player. Hence, since BS4 is a post processing of an impact of the original hitbox from Infiltration, the detection cannot be made.
That being said, I have yet to verify the second hypothesis. In order to do that, I suggest the following simple test. Redo the test I have previously described with BS4 running. With this test establish clearly the "bugged" position and deficient impact zone (identified with screenshots). Then, turn BS4 off to go to the normal hit detection, and tryout the exact same position. If the same problem happens, it's a problem with the original hit detection and it means that INF 2.9 was bugged from day one.
=== My personal conclusion ===
I think people are overeacting a lot about this problem. Most of the body is still pretty much hittable, even when prone leaning. Some people clearly used this problem as an excuse for not being able to hit prone people. Of course it's harder to hit a prone player. As Tiffy said in another thread, when shot at, you don't start jumping around like a crazy bunny... you hit the ground. Why? because it's harder to shoot at someone prone.
This whole bugged prone things has been why over-hyped. Now people start accusing other of prone leaning like it was some sort of dirty hack or aimbot. Most of those who makes the most noise about this don't even know what the problem is and how important it is.
As i told yurch a while back on the test server, this problem needs to be on the "has to be fixed" list, but is not critical. That is still my opinion today.
I would greatly appreciate it if we can clear up prone lean since I use it a lot and I hate being yelled at for exploiting. Thank you geo for confirming that you can be hit while prone leaning. Said so myself on the servers but no one listens.
Anyways I would rather play with the mutator then not. Good work yurch. Great server Shan.
Anyways I would rather play with the mutator then not. Good work yurch. Great server Shan.
If people exploiting is becoming a problem, a short-term solution would be to disable always-relevant and leaning on the server. Granted, people wouldn't be able to crouch-lean or stand-lean, but personally I don't use these much as you can't steady your aim in these positions. It would help us bandwidth-challenged people too .
.
geogob
Koohii o nomimasu ka?
It is _very_ difficult to exploit this hit detection problem. Only in very rare occasions it would have a important impact. It is nothing like the 2.8 lean bug. As I said, this bug was way over-hyped and for some reasons is considered now as cheating. As soon as a prone player does not get die immediatly, he'll get an "OMG HE'S LEANING".
So I'll say it again... I don't consider this bug to be exploitable by any means. If this specific situation happens in a real game, that would be pure bad luck.
O/T.... I've been looking for someone to get on a server with me for while to test my second hypothesis and to confirm the conclusions from the original testing. Maybe it would be nice if either mute or yurch had time to check it out.
So I'll say it again... I don't consider this bug to be exploitable by any means. If this specific situation happens in a real game, that would be pure bad luck.
O/T.... I've been looking for someone to get on a server with me for while to test my second hypothesis and to confirm the conclusions from the original testing. Maybe it would be nice if either mute or yurch had time to check it out.
Geo we tested BS3 at that time, which was considerably more buggy. Me and Snake13 were the ones who tested BS4. Please note the following: When we tested we only tested with the MP5. I dont know if that would make a difference but just so you know FYI. Also we expent about 1000+ rounds so we didnt just make assumptions. Any bugs im about to list were tested over and over to make sure they were real bugs. We also tested from many different angles and from front and side and back WHILE in all positions, standing, prone, crouch and even looking down standing (where the animation looks at the floor).
RESULTS:
Many hit bugs found on the legs. Mainly the lower part near the feet. We also found some bugs when crouching and being shot at at certain angles. While these bugs were clear, they were small enough to not be considered major.
When leaning standing or crouching, the elbow and area of the arm near the elbow were unhittable at certain angles. This was not considered major since the head is clearly visible when leaning around a corner and makes a better target.
A wierd bug was found with the head as well. When shooting the head at certain angels it would register as a torso hit rather than a head hit. This is probobly the explanation for many people saying they shot someone in the head yet they lived. Although hard to do it is there. We classified this as a minor bug.
More bugs were found on the head. This was mainly when the player was crouched, The entire front portion of the face was unhittable from the side. Also parts of the top of the head at certain angles. These bugs were and still are considered major issues.
The major bug we found was with proning. While in normal prone we found the hitbox to be a big improvement over the non BS4 hitbox. Without BS4 it was rather easy to hit a prone person, making the stance pretty useless. With BS4 you can hit within 1 inch above the backpack and still not score a hit. Its much harder to hit someone prone. However once the player entered the lean state, it appears that while the animation moved the body and view to the side, the hitbox did not move. The entire side portion of the body was unhittable. The head was slightly hittable and the main torso was totally hittable. The problem arises when people use the lean prone to lean around corners while prone. The only thing visible sometimes is half the body that is not hittable and a slice of face which sometimes is not hittable as well. This is a major game stopping bug which can grant invincibility to some people in certain situations.
The last and final bugs we found were bugs when shooting straight down or up at people. We noticed alot of shots did not register but the reason this was was because the hitboxes were not aligned with the body properly. Slightly adjsuting ones aim allowed hits.
So my final conclusion is this: While BS4 has a few major bugs, they can be avoided by honorable players and it greatly enhances INF. With a few tweaks I think BS5 can be bug free.
RESULTS:
Many hit bugs found on the legs. Mainly the lower part near the feet. We also found some bugs when crouching and being shot at at certain angles. While these bugs were clear, they were small enough to not be considered major.
When leaning standing or crouching, the elbow and area of the arm near the elbow were unhittable at certain angles. This was not considered major since the head is clearly visible when leaning around a corner and makes a better target.
A wierd bug was found with the head as well. When shooting the head at certain angels it would register as a torso hit rather than a head hit. This is probobly the explanation for many people saying they shot someone in the head yet they lived. Although hard to do it is there. We classified this as a minor bug.
More bugs were found on the head. This was mainly when the player was crouched, The entire front portion of the face was unhittable from the side. Also parts of the top of the head at certain angles. These bugs were and still are considered major issues.
The major bug we found was with proning. While in normal prone we found the hitbox to be a big improvement over the non BS4 hitbox. Without BS4 it was rather easy to hit a prone person, making the stance pretty useless. With BS4 you can hit within 1 inch above the backpack and still not score a hit. Its much harder to hit someone prone. However once the player entered the lean state, it appears that while the animation moved the body and view to the side, the hitbox did not move. The entire side portion of the body was unhittable. The head was slightly hittable and the main torso was totally hittable. The problem arises when people use the lean prone to lean around corners while prone. The only thing visible sometimes is half the body that is not hittable and a slice of face which sometimes is not hittable as well. This is a major game stopping bug which can grant invincibility to some people in certain situations.
The last and final bugs we found were bugs when shooting straight down or up at people. We noticed alot of shots did not register but the reason this was was because the hitboxes were not aligned with the body properly. Slightly adjsuting ones aim allowed hits.
So my final conclusion is this: While BS4 has a few major bugs, they can be avoided by honorable players and it greatly enhances INF. With a few tweaks I think BS5 can be bug free.
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geogob
Koohii o nomimasu ka?
euh. you sure of that NT? i thought the first version of BS to introduce hit detection was BS4...
EDIT:
ok i got it... we tested different updates of BS4 ...
You know what would be nice? A mutator that shows each hit cylinder and the original hit box while in game. I remember such a mutator for quake 3... I used it to do some testing in CPM/OSP. If the same thing would be possible for UT/BS4, it would help debugging a lot.
EDIT:
ok i got it... we tested different updates of BS4 ...
You know what would be nice? A mutator that shows each hit cylinder and the original hit box while in game. I remember such a mutator for quake 3... I used it to do some testing in CPM/OSP. If the same thing would be possible for UT/BS4, it would help debugging a lot.
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You're right about the head, I tested with the hitmessages on, and about the lower half of the head registers as a uppershouldertorso hit. Meh I'll just learn to aim higher