Delays In PC Version of Tom Clancy's EndWar Due To Piracy
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According to Mark Rein, he didn't say any such thing.:
http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=177037
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in reply nº 28 is the answer,
the whole point of all this thread about companies making games on console before pc, is on that answer
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@ Mons:
Okay, Here are the console COD 4 numbers for 2007: It comes to 3.04 MILLION
and Here are the PC COD 4 numbers for 2007: It comes to 383,000 or .383 Million.
So that's actually a 9-1 ratio. Then you have a Rock, Paper, Shotgun quick look at piracy, which is most definitely FAR from scientific, but that puts a whole lotta pirated units out there (and keep in mind how conservative this is. Hell, it's from March of 2008 when the game had waned from popularity.) and then combine it with the cryptic, yet sad comments from Infinity Ward.
The point: Even with a massively popular, well reviewed, well received, well made consistently fun game with solid multiplayer, Piracy is the clear winner on the PC platform.
Again, it's a wonder to me that people continue to release things for the PC without at least a 3 month delay. It saddens me as a PC gamer to have to wait, but I understand it completely. People on forums, being the ignorant trolls they are get all up in arms about a company making money on their $10 Million investment at the expense of their spare money and then claim that companies that don't make it are succumbing to some social darwinism instead of admitting the obvious role that pirating actually plays. Sure, some companies over use it as an excuse, but it seems like there are emerging only two possible scenarios for profitability:
1) DRM the **** out of a game, but do so in a way that doesn't piss people off too much (ala steam)
2) be an MMORPG, in which case the $50 pales next to the $15/mo subscription they can't fake.
~Jason
Okay, Here are the console COD 4 numbers for 2007: It comes to 3.04 MILLION
and Here are the PC COD 4 numbers for 2007: It comes to 383,000 or .383 Million.
So that's actually a 9-1 ratio. Then you have a Rock, Paper, Shotgun quick look at piracy, which is most definitely FAR from scientific, but that puts a whole lotta pirated units out there (and keep in mind how conservative this is. Hell, it's from March of 2008 when the game had waned from popularity.) and then combine it with the cryptic, yet sad comments from Infinity Ward.
The point: Even with a massively popular, well reviewed, well received, well made consistently fun game with solid multiplayer, Piracy is the clear winner on the PC platform.
Again, it's a wonder to me that people continue to release things for the PC without at least a 3 month delay. It saddens me as a PC gamer to have to wait, but I understand it completely. People on forums, being the ignorant trolls they are get all up in arms about a company making money on their $10 Million investment at the expense of their spare money and then claim that companies that don't make it are succumbing to some social darwinism instead of admitting the obvious role that pirating actually plays. Sure, some companies over use it as an excuse, but it seems like there are emerging only two possible scenarios for profitability:
1) DRM the **** out of a game, but do so in a way that doesn't piss people off too much (ala steam)
2) be an MMORPG, in which case the $50 pales next to the $15/mo subscription they can't fake.
~Jason
Thanks for summing up my lengthy post. You are far better at wording than I am.
I think that this is precisely what is being said.
(To add...) And frankly I can't blame them. If they could get a decent keyboard and mouse option for FPS on consoles I'd be pretty much all in.
The cost of a gaming computer just doesn't make as much sense anymore. The only thing holding me back mostly is the "keyboard and mouse" thing.
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Even this is becoming less of a reality. People are reverse-engineering the server systems that these MMOs use, thereby allowing anyone, in theory, to set up a free, private server.
And I know these definitely exist for World of Warcraft and Ragnarok Online. And very likely more than that, though those are the only two I can say I know have server emulators with confidence.
If people are so tired of piracy on the PC, then now is the time to have across the board adoption of Steam. Full Steam integration is nearly impossible to fully crack, HL2 took several weeks before it was effectively cracked "enough" to get through the single player campaign without problems. That's the longest I've ever heard of a game going.
The fact of the matter is, as long as retail game sales are disconnected from a REAL online system (not something moronic like SecuROM's easily avoidable internet activation, I'm talking about the core of the game being fully integrated with an online system), PC games are going to be fully crackable. The PC is never going to be a closed system, not enough to make it a viable "non-console" platform for games. The only way PC games are going to survive is by moving to a medium like Steam. I only pick that out of a few because it is the most stable, the most convenient, and the most user friendly out of all of the other systems out there. Oh, and they don't advertise crappy desktop products to you on every page.
Now, this is not to say that there isn't room for non-DRM games. There definitely is, but, as has been rightly pointed out numerous times in this thread, PC sales are terrible compared to console game sales, even when the game is outstanding. For new releases, some kind of anti-piracy measure should be taken. I am of the mind that after a reasonable amount of time, all DRM should be removed.
The fact of the matter is, as long as retail game sales are disconnected from a REAL online system (not something moronic like SecuROM's easily avoidable internet activation, I'm talking about the core of the game being fully integrated with an online system), PC games are going to be fully crackable. The PC is never going to be a closed system, not enough to make it a viable "non-console" platform for games. The only way PC games are going to survive is by moving to a medium like Steam. I only pick that out of a few because it is the most stable, the most convenient, and the most user friendly out of all of the other systems out there. Oh, and they don't advertise crappy desktop products to you on every page.
Now, this is not to say that there isn't room for non-DRM games. There definitely is, but, as has been rightly pointed out numerous times in this thread, PC sales are terrible compared to console game sales, even when the game is outstanding. For new releases, some kind of anti-piracy measure should be taken. I am of the mind that after a reasonable amount of time, all DRM should be removed.
TheIronKnuckle
What the hell is this "ballin" thing?
This is exactly what they are doing for Crysis Wars free lan play indefinitely and free multiplay this weekend...
So true, I can't understand how people can see there is nothing wrong with this method, still makes someone a pirate whether they buy it later or not. Most of the time, if someone is going to bother locating a pirate copy of a game, they won't go on to buy it, commiting this method encourages someone to steal and not go on to pay, it also makes them more likely to keep doing it.
I haven't denied the fact that I am a pirate, but the thing is that there are a lot of people, who buy games after they pirate them (like I did).
So what I can't understand here is what are you complaining about? I still payed for what I played so bite me!
If you cannot understand, then let me point it out. While you are busy leaving your machine downloading a full game illegally, you are uploading chunks of it to other people who want it free too, most of these people have no intention of paying for the game - so you are helping lose sales (profits to make more/better games, not to forget people need employment to support themselves and their families) and you make it faster and easier for more and more people to steal. Doing this sort of thing also makes it more likely you will keep repeating it, and for some it means going on to pirating more games for free than buying.
Poor excuses, you can usually see if you are interested in a game or not with the desire to get it/own it, you cannot blame a demo and use it as a reason to pirate the full game. There's enough screenshots, videos, gameplay footage, previews to help someone make their mind up, I usually can, I've bought many games without needing a demo - and I'm a fussy PC gamer not a dumbed down console gamer. A demo is always nice of course and usually gives you a feel of what's in the game, I don't think demos are too misleading at all - I think some imagination is needed.
Years ago people relied on magazines and maybe catch a tv show showing a game coming up only, but now with the internet and easier access of promotion materials - so many people still seem to find reasons to justify their theft.
If you don't think you want to spend the money on a game, then it doesn't mean that gives you a reason to pirate it for free - why bother? Easier availability of pirated games means piracy will only continue and grow, once kids and teens are hooked on getting their games for free they continue to do it and internet speeds are getting faster and faster as we speak.
Not the only negative impact, if you think outside your own box. Deleting your pirate copy is fine, no harm done you think but you've already helped spread that copy and the damage has been done. Might-buyers like yourself only help the Never-buyers have an easy ride. I don't associate this kind of thing with government laws, it's more a matter of common sense and respect. People are just so selfish and greedy these days. Again I see the car as another poor excuse, very different things. A test drive of a car could equal a demo of a game, that's a better comparison imo.
I've become more tempted to pirate games, seeing how unfinnished most games are becoming.
I bought two copies of both UT3 and GoW PC for my brother, and I. Something I regret greatfully.
I have to disagree, I've played through gears of war and I'd call it a finished game, with a good system it runs stable. Maybe you don't like the game, I'll say tough if you feel you wasted your money - everyone knows what gow was like - the amount of videos available for it, I followed this game from the birth, and watched every time cliff showcased it, if you went and bought it and then became disappointed with the game - I think you only have yourself to blame. UT3 is good enough, but out of the box it was definitely lacking some features I expected, definitely unpolished by the studio (expecting the final game would be much different than the demo), I did feel I should not have spent £35 on the collector's edition, the most money I've ever spent on a PC title.
I cannot justify going on to pirate games just because of any let downs, you are not going to love everything about a game. A lot of hard work and effort goes into game creation, people are so quick to forget that. There's guys and girls who spend alot of their time working to build the games in an effort for our entertainment benefit - to help keep providing the experiences that are part of our developed, highly technology driven lives. I'm sure there's lots of people out there, if they were to become a part of a game development team, in the sweat of it, they would change their mind about pirating games. Most teenagers of course, don't have a clue, and then there are those with very low intelligence.
Nah, it's your fault. Let's blame any random person shall we
lol, your comment was so random.someone usually gets politics involved for a comparison or blame, I'm sure there's many politicians (GTA scapegoaters) and groups (those odd religious family groups for example) who will jump for joy at any kind of gaming's demise.
Oh indeed but you can certainly show the difference in sales from platform to platform, for your own titles, on a world scale.
But hey, maybe it isnt pirates right and all this DRM, staggered releases etc is all for nothing and is only helping to kick a platform thats already down
Edit:If they see oh 4,000,000 vs 200,000 it might actually get acouple to rush out and buy some games
I don't think so mate, think about it. Look how big the console sales figure is. Many people will look at it and think "why should I give a ****, they are still making millions on consoles". I don't think hardcore figures will help the problem one bit. I think it will only satisfy people who do care already and are not regular, hardcore pirates who help damage the pc gaming industry greatly.
You do have good intentions, as do some others, but I think this growing problem is very difficult to stop... when I say stop, I mean in the minds of people. People are very much set in their ways, if there is a way to get something for free people will do it, even if it means risk of getting caught in some way.
Many people are against their government, against taxes, bills and so on. Some people associate money making corporations (movie, music and game companies) in the same league as hated governments, and therefore do not want to be taxed on life, what they see as enjoyment in life, entertainment experiences, people expect for free and do not want to have to pay for the luxury because they feel entitled to it and because it's easy to do and with the feeling they can not be punished for such a remote act. Obviously some people are really too poor to buy games, and pirating happens a lot with teenagers, but even adults are just as bad for it, and parents pirate stuff to get for their kids. This issue can become so detailed if you want to go into types of people and the reasons behind behaviour but as said before, it is very difficult to change mind sets.
oh please no, I never liked the idea of using steam. I used it once for half life generations box set, was forced to download tons of updates which took ages, forced to have steam in the background, it just wasn't fun at the time and remember it took valuable resources on my then older pc. I was only saying to a relation the other day how I don't like Steam and having to stay connected to it etc he has half life 2, or the orange box (definitely legal copy) and was asking me how he can play the game when he doesn't have steam because he doesn't have an internet connection at home, I told him I'd try and find out if it was possible. So you see something like steam where everything is online can bring problems with it where people do not have internet connections. I've always loved my games not connected to any other service, you just install and play as is. But I know not everyone is obviously like me who will happily buy my games and support the games industry. Honest customers do not need overly restrictive protections. The games will get pirated no matter the protection I believe but I do welcome measures that protect my own individual copy.
Having said that about Steam, I am prepared to change if needs be, if PC retail (I buy all my games new in physical form from online stores, posted to me) came to an end and the only way to play PC games was to be a part of a service such as steam, then so be it.
More on personal experience of piracy, I know someone with a nintendo ds who gets all his games free from the net, even before street release date, I don't really know how it all works, but it's true consoles are in the same boat as PC as others have pointed out. I think the hardcore piraters will go onto consoles if PC games did not exist, and consoles would face what becomes an even bigger *growing problem*. I'm sure individuals and groups who take part in organised piracy cover every platform already anyway.
A relative who visited me watched me play some assassins creed, and asked if he could copy it, I explained about copy protection and that it might stop my game from working if he had a copy of it. I forget what the protection is on creed but I will not pirate my own games, especially with risk that it would stop my own copy from working, it's my hard earned money down the drain but pirates obviously don't think about the details, they just expect something on a plate, this same relative also went out one night leaving his laptop connected to my internet connection pirating games, I disconnected him from my wireless network. I don't care who it is, I won't be pirating any of my games to anyone, I've said no to a few people. Online I won't copy my games to people, in my own clan in U1/UT2004 I've always tried to direct people where they can buy epic's games new, instead of letting them pirate a game. I have provided U1 to a few people who needed the older version of unreal to patch it to 225f for mapping or server needs, when they only owned unreal gold but this I see as fine.
I'm no angel though, to really understand something you have to be it yourself at some point in your life. Obviously I've downloaded some older game titles that could not be bought easily new anymore, and then there's movies. Most people have downloaded movies for free, usually if they are unavailable on dvd, or to try because thinking of buying. I can live with myself though because of the money I've put into my games and dvds collections over the years. Some people never or rarely buy - they only pirate. I know I criticised earlier, but I do understand the problem of piracy and have no desire to provide silly excuses, only valid ones.
imo, I feel games need less piracy than movies, does it sound so bad?
the more funding a studio has, the higher quality a game should be. Everyone complains about the lack of polish of some games, but studios have limited time and funding. The more profits they have - it should mean our games will be better. Sometimes, bad leadership decisions can result in a poor game no matter the funding, but most of the time I think it's safe to say more funding means more development time and resources working on a title. People are not going to write stories, build assets etc for free are they? forgive if my lack of deeper understanding on game studios is showing, but in my mind, a studio is employing a group of people, from funds in the bank (or even borrowed funds), the moment they release a game is their only chance of profit, it's win or lose, impress or fail.
Movie studios I believe have much more opportunities to make profits, wider world coverage, cinema sales, dvd sales, tv rights, merchaindise etc
so I believe piracy hurts the games (esp PC) industry much more than the movie industry. I'm sure I'm just pointing out the obvious to some but I felt it had to be said.
A relative who visited me watched me play some assassins creed, and asked if he could copy it, I explained about copy protection and that it might stop my game from working if he had a copy of it. I forget what the protection is on creed but I will not pirate my own games, especially with risk that it would stop my own copy from working, it's my hard earned money down the drain but pirates obviously don't think about the details, they just expect something on a plate, this same relative also went out one night leaving his laptop connected to my internet connection pirating games, I disconnected him from my wireless network. I don't care who it is, I won't be pirating any of my games to anyone, I've said no to a few people. Online I won't copy my games to people, in my own clan in U1/UT2004 I've always tried to direct people where they can buy epic's games new, instead of letting them pirate a game. I have provided U1 to a few people who needed the older version of unreal to patch it to 225f for mapping or server needs, when they only owned unreal gold but this I see as fine.
I'm no angel though, to really understand something you have to be it yourself at some point in your life. Obviously I've downloaded some older game titles that could not be bought easily new anymore, and then there's movies. Most people have downloaded movies for free, usually if they are unavailable on dvd, or to try because thinking of buying. I can live with myself though because of the money I've put into my games and dvds collections over the years. Some people never or rarely buy - they only pirate. I know I criticised earlier, but I do understand the problem of piracy and have no desire to provide silly excuses, only valid ones.
imo, I feel games need less piracy than movies, does it sound so bad?
the more funding a studio has, the higher quality a game should be. Everyone complains about the lack of polish of some games, but studios have limited time and funding. The more profits they have - it should mean our games will be better. Sometimes, bad leadership decisions can result in a poor game no matter the funding, but most of the time I think it's safe to say more funding means more development time and resources working on a title. People are not going to write stories, build assets etc for free are they? forgive if my lack of deeper understanding on game studios is showing, but in my mind, a studio is employing a group of people, from funds in the bank (or even borrowed funds), the moment they release a game is their only chance of profit, it's win or lose, impress or fail.
Movie studios I believe have much more opportunities to make profits, wider world coverage, cinema sales, dvd sales, tv rights, merchaindise etc
so I believe piracy hurts the games (esp PC) industry much more than the movie industry. I'm sure I'm just pointing out the obvious to some but I felt it had to be said.
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I like the idea of Steam, but more importantly, I would rather have every PC games released on Steam and have tons of them than have only a few scattered crappy ports with even less decent games and even far less great games mingled in with them.
What it comes down to for me is that if people want to use copy protection, use something that is functional and stable, not something crappy like SecuROM. Steam, right now, is the pinnacle of online distribution. I'm pretty sure they will easily hold that lead for a long time in the future.
I know you're right brizz, my "oh please no" was an on purpose comical overeaction to your mass adoption suggestion, lol
I might have to give steam a go to get the full experience of using them, it's just I don't know how it works, how you can back your game up, I just fear I won't be able to own it completely, or even play any steam purchased games offline without the internet (unlikely, but still..).
I did use erm, direct2drive is it? it was the one where you could buy roboblitz, remember that game, I bought it online when it was released, the first PC ue3 based game it brought a big stir here on bu. I have it on my hard drive somewhere, forgot any limitations though right now.
I might have to give steam a go to get the full experience of using them, it's just I don't know how it works, how you can back your game up, I just fear I won't be able to own it completely, or even play any steam purchased games offline without the internet (unlikely, but still..).
I did use erm, direct2drive is it? it was the one where you could buy roboblitz, remember that game, I bought it online when it was released, the first PC ue3 based game
it brought a big stir here on bu. I have it on my hard drive somewhere, forgot any limitations though right now.
The record is held by notorious Starforce - Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory held 422 days before being cracked. On the other hand the more hyped the game is, the higher the chance it gets cracked soon.
Heh, got itI know you're right brizz, my "oh please no" was an on purpose comical overeaction to your mass adoption suggestion, lol
I might have to give steam a go to get the full experience of using them, it's just I don't know how it works, how you can back your game up, I just fear I won't be able to own it completely, or even play any steam purchased games offline without the internet (unlikely, but still..).
I did use erm, direct2drive is it? it was the one where you could buy roboblitz, remember that game, I bought it online when it was released, the first PC ue3 based game
I used Direct2Drive when I bought RoboBlitz the first time as well. Guess what? I lost the installer/key file and now I can't download or install it anymore. It's ridiculous.