CliffyB Gets Hate Mail

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SkaarjMaster

enemy of time
Sep 1, 2000
4,872
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Sarasota, FL
Yellow Five said:
I agree 100% with this. I would rather see someone like Cliff get 50 of emails critical of his work than 50 fanboys kissing his ass all day.

The problem is that developers would go broke if they tried to do this because publishers are no longer willing to take a chance on something new. Publishers wont respond to something original until games like UT2004, Call of Duty and Quake 4 stop selling.

If you want original games you have to look towards the independent developers. Games like Gish and Darwinia have done well while Savage: The Battle for Newerth tanked despite being a great example of original and entertaining gameplay.

I've spent more money on independent titles the past few months than anything else. In fact I just picked up Minions of Mirth (http://www.prairiegames.com/) today for $25 bucks which is a steal. If you are an RPG fan and want the chance to play a game similar to EQ/Morrowind in scope check it out. It even allows you to run your own persistent world with your own original content.

The author of the email used some horrible examples but I can totally agree with the concept of what he was trying to say.

I wonder if this is THE Yellow5?:D I agree with most of the people here about the hate mail being lame, although it did have some points with bad or no backup. Anyway, I agree with ElmerFudd about this quote:
[GUelmur_fud said:
So called realistic fps's just boar me, if I wanted to be in a realistic battle I would join the army.
 
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chillypacman

New Member
Dec 19, 2005
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Well that guy did nail one thing, halo 1/2 in japan is dirt sold in the sunday market, and the silly aluminium box its special edition comes in is melted down and remolded for a greater use (i.e. door knobs).

ONe of the most popular fps games that originated in japan isn't very popular over there but has gotten its fare share of rave reviews here, it goes by the name of "Metroid".

The japanese market is completely different to the rest of the planet in the world of gaming, despite ms's sincerest efforts their product doesnt havce the kinds of games that the japanese like.

Games are like the movie industry but in reverse, in the movie industry you have good movies and bad ones, good movies that turn into blockbusters tend to have different elements sown in in the right balances, however their still are the 'dumb fun' movies were there is an excess of one element (be it action, vulgar comedy etc) and while they are guaranteed money makers they can never become summer blockbusters. In the gaming industry on the other hand to hell with elemental balance, unless your playing an rpg the most successful games flood their resepective genres with as much cliche as possible and they are not only guaranteed to make lots of money but they are also guaranteed to be blockbusters of the gaming world...
 
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NeoNite

Starsstream
Dec 10, 2000
20,275
263
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In a stream of stars
Kyllian said:
For example, UT was(as far as I know) the first game to make dual firemodes for each weapon(not counting zoom) and it included dodging(again, as far as I know, UT was first with this)

You forgot Unreal.

unregistered user said:
Don't expect innovations from the games. FPS will always feature shooting someone.

Thanks for the info, einstein.
It's really usefull ;=)

I'll just have to echo what's been said before. Innovation would be great, but the risk is too big...
 
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[GU]elmur_fud

I have balls of Depleted Uranium
Mar 15, 2005
3,148
31
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Waco, Texas
mtbp.deviantart.com
chillypacman said:
Well that guy did nail one thing, halo 1/2 in japan is dirt sold in the sunday market, and the silly aluminium box its special edition comes in is melted down and remolded for a greater use (i.e. door knobs).


Hey they raped that chrome box idea from me (probably)... I desiged this for DNF years ago.

http://gamerzunlimited.net/mtbpman/irrelovent/dnfboxartcompback.jpg

or a much later and not so orrigonal variation.
http://gamerzunlimited.net/mtbpman/irrelovent/dnf-black-box.jpg

Not that I got any patents or exclusive rights on the idea, but I rather like the metal collectors box.


I see plenty of room for inovation in the game industry whole vast scopes of possibilities that haven't been exploited in game flow, concept, implementation, and even genre. Pigeon hole-ing an industry that has passed it's initial boom and is trying to feel out the directions it's headed isn't the way I would choose to try and promote inovation. It's going out there and making something new, shiny, and awesome... for people critisise/ridicule that I strive for.
 
There's so many people saying "everything that can be done has been done" in various versions. I tell you, before Katamari that game style wasn't done before yet people kept proclaiming "everything has been done already". There will be innovative games in the future that play nothing like past games yet people will still say "there is nothing new you could possibly make".
 

badvermin

The one and only
Aug 5, 2005
89
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At work we have a wall with the funniest emails and letters we get. From 65 year old guys who just love playing DOOM (actual letter) or little kids who draw us pictures of what they would like to see in our next game. It's good stuff, I wish we could post them online, it would crack you guys up. I'd say only 2% are negative, but those can be funny as well, most of the time they don't even make sense. One guy was mad because one of our games didn't have QUITE the right shade of red for blood and it totally took him out of the game and was super pissed about it.

Juguard said:
Games will never be like they used to be. Its about money, and money alone these days. CliffyB is making games because it makes him money, not because he wants to play them.

Like they used to be? Nothing has changed. Video game companies have always been about making money, without money we can't make more games. Every year there are countless sequels and a few great original titles.

Now on the opposite side of the coin, just about everyone in the industry does it because they are passionate about games, not because of the pay. We have to put in extra hours that we do not get paid for, but do it because we love games and want to make the best games possible. Nobody goes out to make a crappy game, sometimes it just happens, its an art. And unfortunately, just because you make a incredibly fun, innovative, critically acclaimed game doesn't mean it will sell, the market is funny that way. And sometimes a mediocre game just doesn't turn out to be fun, but sells great, so it gets sequel after sequel. And sometimes all people want is DOOM with prettier graphics. Just look at the modders recreating the original DOOM levels to play on DOOM3.

Juguard said:
I mean come on, why do you think they make exclusives? When they will port GOW to PC, they will not pay the same attention to its detail like they are dowing with the xbox360. I hope I'm wrong.

Of course they pay more attention to the consoles, they make more money than the PC versions.

One final note, Unreal Tournament 2004 is still one of my most played games.
 

Bazzi

Wearing pink
Apr 22, 2001
629
0
0
Germany
www.bazzinet.info
Well that guy is right to the extent that there is a major decline in innovation.

Said decline has stopped me from playing most of the new games because it is mostly the same **** over and over.

And releasing sequels to popular games which DO change major stuff is generally a bad idea[tm] because the exiusting fanbase will burn the game developers and if you release the same with just polished graphics the same people will still screw you over... so your fanbase will decline and decline most likely.

Example: Unreal Community.

Positive example may be World of Warcraft, which wasn't exactly innovation but changed the Warcraft universe into something MMORPG playable and lured millions of new people to that genre.
 

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
26,020
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[GU]elmur_fud said:
I see plenty of room for inovation in the game industry whole vast scopes of possibilities that haven't been exploited in game flow, concept, implementation, and even genre. Pigeon hole-ing an industry that has passed it's initial boom and is trying to feel out the directions it's headed isn't the way I would choose to try and promote inovation. It's going out there and making something new, shiny, and awesome... for people critisise/ridicule that I strive for.
Are we talking about the industry, or FPS's? I mean, DS did bring up FEAR (and I'll politely remind him about Undying), which is a good example of a crossover game, where a REALLY tiny risk was taken that ended up paying off, but what else can you do with an FPS? Jump higher? Fall farther? Shoot better?? I'd really like to know what kinds of innovations you would make in an FPS that would be as groundbreaking as you are making them out to be, because, the way I see it, there is VERY little room for any of that any more (except on a graphical level, possibly).

As far as the industry goes, of course there is room for innovation... but I don't think Katamari is a good example. Katamari is more like a smorgasbord of different ideas all smattered into one big ball (pun intended) then a huge innovation in gameplay. I don't know about you, but I've played games before where I have to push things all around the place.

The other problem is that genre-busters rarely make alot of money. The only difference with Wolf3D/Doom was that it was the first time that playing a game as if you were that person was done well. That kind of innovation is hard to come by today.
 
Mar 19, 2002
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Looks like Prey will be the next big FPS, other than GOW (and UT2007).
Both of those titles are bringing some added twist to the genre, besides super graphics.
Granted, those twists were still present in some simple form in other games, but they really seem to be getting fleshed out here, making them significant parts of their respective game.

I don't know, I'm still not bored with video games.
________
Your_Angel
 
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BobCobb

Society is a leech on me!
Sep 20, 2002
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You're all a bunch of fanboys. To say MGS4 is crap is like this moron saying GoW is crap. Its ridiculous because absolutely none of you have played either. Sure, that guy is clearly an ass nugget, with no life. But you are essentially jumping on the same fanboy wagon. All games, even garbage sports games, deserve their chance. To say otherwise is ignorance.

You guys need to get laid. And that guy needs to get out of the house.
 

K.N.I.F.E

Dressed in Pink
Jun 4, 2005
453
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In Nathan's base
kevan.org
Now I don't hate violent games, but enough is enough. It's time for the industry to grow beyond making clones of games we've been playing already for 10 years and develop some meaningful *gasp* ORIGINAL ideas. And you are certainly not helping this trend. No, instead you settle for the lowest common denomenator and make a stupid sci-fi FPS to compete with the hundred other sci-fi FPSs on the market.

I'ts not a FPS dumb ass

TPS
 

Bang_Doll

Freebasing Anime Chicks Since '96
Aug 10, 2005
357
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hha3.netfirms.com
Bazzi said:
Positive example may be World of Warcraft,

Wait, I thought you said positive examples?
:lol:

And Brizz - there is always originality and innovation. In everything, but perhaps FPS and the rest of the industry above all else. Just because you can't think of it, doesn't mean it isn't there. I mean, if I did, I wouldn't be wasting my time here. I'd be out there designing my own innovative game.


Jeez, if everybody thought like that, the world would still be flat...
 
I'd really like to know what kinds of innovations you would make in an FPS that would be as groundbreaking as you are making them out to be, because, the way I see it, there is VERY little room for any of that any more (except on a graphical level, possibly).

1. Try something akin to Battlezone or Uprising, just with a different strategy implementation (or do you want something that doesn't include any element any game before ever used?). That'd already make a huge difference in gameplay.
2. Deathmatch in outer space jumping around with magnetic boots and large chunks of debries making up the levels? Every surface a possible floor and lots of zero-g travel between chunks using correction thrusters to dodge attacks?
3. Using movement physics as seen in Sonic (very high maximum speed, relatively low friction, no instant accelleration or decelleration).
4. Different modes of attack/defense? Not a secondary fire mode, different modes to put your character into (kinda like the shield modes in Alcor's Evarena).
5. Hellgate: London

Sure, you're probably going to say "Oh, those are just parts from other games mixed in, that's not true originality" but I think such a definition of originality is just to define EVERYTHING as unoriginal and claim that we can just as well try nothing new and play the same boring game over and over again (I'm tired of run-along-linear-level-and-kill-everything style FPSes like Half-Life 2 or FEAR).
 

Sir_Brizz

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Feb 3, 2000
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KDR_11k said:
1. Try something akin to Battlezone or Uprising, just with a different strategy implementation (or do you want something that doesn't include any element any game before ever used?). That'd already make a huge difference in gameplay.
So, something like what Savage already did?
2. Deathmatch in outer space jumping around with magnetic boots and large chunks of debries making up the levels? Every surface a possible floor and lots of zero-g travel between chunks using correction thrusters to dodge attacks?
I think gravitational gameplay is something that hasn't been explored much because of how it effects physics calculations. I, too, have had alot of fun ideas dealing with gravity, but up to this point they are unrealistic mostly from a processing standpoint, not because someone won't try them.
3. Using movement physics as seen in Sonic (very high maximum speed, relatively low friction, no instant accelleration or decelleration).
There is a reason this isn't done in FPS already, it works better in TPS :p All of the Sonic 3D games have been like this, but from first person you don't get a good point of view on the action if that is the focus of the gameplay.
4. Different modes of attack/defense? Not a secondary fire mode, different modes to put your character into (kinda like the shield modes in Alcor's Evarena).
I really don't understand how this one will give you any more of a thrilling gameplay experience than we already have.
Sure, you're probably going to say "Oh, those are just parts from other games mixed in, that's not true originality" but I think such a definition of originality is just to define EVERYTHING as unoriginal and claim that we can just as well try nothing new and play the same boring game over and over again
Why wouldn't I? That's exactly what you've been arguing against in this thread. How can adding a new, never used feature in a certain genre be considered a lack of creativity, originality, or innovation unles you are the one that comes up with it? The movement system in UT2003 hadn't been tried before, and whether or not you think it worked is aside from the point that it was pretty creative. I guess the true definition of creativity is, if I didn't come up with it, it's unoriginal. IMO, creativity comes more in design, graphics, and BASIC gameplay than anything else. Getting ALL of those things to work well together isn't that easy, and when alot of games come out where they do we tend to look past it and critique what is underneath.
(I'm tired of run-along-linear-level-and-kill-everything style FPSes like Half-Life 2 or FEAR).
So what you really want is a non-linear stealth shooter like Splinter Cell 4? :p I enjoy story alot more than game mechanics. If a game employs a good enough story, then the mechanics are based upon that and not on anything else. I didn't love Half Life 2 because they promised a story and didn't deliver one, I did, however, love FEAR, because it had an awesome story and the gameplay was based around it. How "fun" would a game be if you were just some regular guy and they included bullet time in it? Or if you were some demigod but stepping on a nail killed you? I'd rather see a well-made story with the same old mechanics than a subpar story with ooh-ahh mechanics.
 

chillypacman

New Member
Dec 19, 2005
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Of course they pay more attention to the consoles, they make more money than the PC versions.
that does suck, I mean games like battlefront 2 have suffered because they were more or less designed for consoles, crappy graphics, crappy AI, dodgy gameplay. Imagine if halo was not made an xbox exclusive, halo 2 would have looked a whole lot better with completely revamped graphics becasue the developers owuldnt have had to worry about making it fit into that black box.

COnsoles make more money than PC games, live with it I suppose.
 

[GU]elmur_fud

I have balls of Depleted Uranium
Mar 15, 2005
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I generaly reserve my creativity for the 4 games and 1 mod I am heavily involved in the creative process of. Unfortunately since they are greatly the result of my brother and my ideas and currently I work for myself the game titles fall under my rinky dink graphics/web design company. Which isn't well funded since I am a lousey business man so they progress at a snails pace.

Though the mod should come out sometime 2k6....

He has some good points if taken as a generalism but I disagree with him greatly in his implications. I enjoy sequals most of the time, I see nothing wrong with a sequal. I don't see US FPS games as a rehashed crap, I personaly enjoy playing most US FPS games and would die of boredom playing most oriental FPS games. That said there are exceptions on both sides of the coin. But if I only could buy one game a year to play that year, it wouldn't be a oriental one, because 4 me they lack replay value.

I will give you one tidbit... one game I am in the process of hashing out to add to my list is a mmo-FPS/RPG/RTS where the goal is world domination through emmassing power inside a fantasy universe of magic and mythology. Charecters as well as npc's will grow and evolve. The charecter you choose may stay an ordinary person, become a monster, or a demigod, depending on the choices you make. There will be no lvl's per say but a progressive responce to the choices you make and your skill at manipulating people.
So in essance you may rule other charecters and npc's or you may find yourself subserviant to someone else.


Oh well revealed a bit more then I orrigonally intended but I see no reason to alter the above.

hmm let the ridicule begin....
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
mr non black 'n white said:
what is wrong with his message? he or she didn't exactly put it very elegantly, but what about it is completely wrong? most of you guys seem to judge him based more around cliffyB fanboy behaviour than about the content of his complaint. I think he's right with the bottom line of gmes not really evolving, just gimmicking up instead. But the same goes for games from everywhere. Including japan. The Nth mario or zelda indeed. Same with metal gear by the way.

One more important point to whoever indulges in games.( I used to call myself hardcore gamer, not anymore, they're getting too creepy) the games he speaks of are about 10 years old!! there's so much more than games in life!
Hmm I suddenly get this vision of a bunch of very old whining people saying, "hmm in the good old days....." and other old people saying, "aah it's not true, times are changing, and we need to change with them...." Just how much time in life do you want to spend playing games?


Get out and get some fresh air. It'll do every one of you good.

What's wrong with his message is that he lambasts CliffyB, and american game designers in general, saying that they are uncreative and do the same game over and over again... and then uses the FOURTH metal gear solid game as his counterexample. He's presenting a flawed argument. Though I suspect that was mainly just trollbait flame-mail to cliffy to make it on his webpage.

I love Unreal, I love MGS for that matter. Creativity is good, but there's not a lot of new stuff to do with all of the ideas that have already been done. A good game is one that is satisfying, regardless of its creativity or originality.
 

UnrealDirektor

Unreal and Anime Fanatic (Avatar I like)
w00t! w00t! new game!

no pain, no game. I just don't think there can be any new really original ideas. I mean for Christ (and Aiur) ... they have tried EVERYTHING... even if something looks original at first sight, I can show you something that preceded it.

There are the games that combine RPG with STRATEGY ... wohohoo, new stuff? Bull****, I just remembered of Jurassic War a Japanese (... no comment) title way back in 1996 which had this feature fully implemented.