Body Armor

[LoTekK]

i'm with puncher... when i was in the singapore army, SOP for urban ops was for one guy per fireteam to lug around a fieldpack filled with grenades, since each room entry is preceded by a frag... (and yes, that's a ****load of grenades... and it's heavy...)

Yup, it seems the army really wants to take the "grunt" out of grunt work.

no kidding, man... next thing you know us grunts'll be fighting using remote uplinks to frigging machines...

 

[c+k|nEVeRmOre]

Originally posted by LoTekK
no kidding, man... next thing you know us grunts'll be fighting using remote uplinks to frigging machines...

Where do I sign up?

 

[Harpoon]

I lost the article for it, but apparently the army is going into research into developing a "power armor". Think Tribes, etc.. It is a suit that provides protection against small arms fire, while being powered so that the users movements transfer into the suit. This would allow a soldier great strength and protection, and allow female troops to be just as strong as male ones. Some problems include malfunctions like the power shorrting out, leaving the soldier weighed down by a useless metal shell.

 

[Kisen_K]

Nice, power armour Fallout anyone?

 

[asmodeus]

thes wont be so useful until we can harness fusion power and put it in a small box

we won't see that

 

[LoTekK]

nevermind power armor... how bout clothing that'll heal up a bullet wound? there's research going on and prototypes being tested for a layer of clothing worn under body armor and all that good stuff, that's laced with buttloads of chemicals and junk... here's the thing, if body armor is defeated and you take a flesh wound, the uber-clothing (obviously pierced now) reacts to the tear by essentially "healing" and sealing up the wound just sustained... pretty wicked stuff, if ya ask me... sure, it doesn't heal up that liver that just got blown apart by the saboted 12-gauge slug, but hey, it's something...

 

[yurch]

wussy armor.
I dont wanna wear anything heavier than a flack jacket in inf

 

[Kuroshio Apocal]

Originally posted by St0rmcaller
...We call it the Three Block War...

Isn't that the concept that the Marines might be handing out candy and food supplies on one block, keeping a civil disturbance under control in another block, and actually shooting it out with the enemy on the last block?

 

[Harpoon]

Wait a sec, back to my origional topic. If, as it is now, the troops in INF are NOT wearing body armor (three or four shots from an MP5 .40 to the chest or back kill, most armor can stop that) then how come it takes TWO shots, from a 5.56mm M16 or Commando, or two shots from a 7.62mm AKMSU, to kill in the chest or back. I dunno about you, but if I take a 7.62mm slug, I'm going DOWN!

Also, I don't understand how armor and stuff is simulated in games, even the realistic ones like R6/RS and future INF.

I mean, in INF you've got your health bar. Pretend you got armor. You take a shot from an MP5 in the chest. The health bar goes down a bit. You take ten more shots. It goes down to almost nothing. You take one last shot in the chest, health goes to zero, you die.

But it doesn't work that way in real life. In real life you could smack a vest on someone, and shoot them with a low caliber weapon in a different spot each time, and it will not penetrate. Just because you shot five times in the left part of your vest doesn't mean that the armors whole integrity will be dissapitated enough for one shot to the right part of your vest to penetrate. Does anyone know alot about this?

 

[LoTekK]

the way i see it, the way body armor works in games currently is a decent-enough approximation considering the hardware/software limitations... while a specific location-based damage system that detacts hits down to millimeter increments would be extremely cool, i would think (in my limited programming knowledge) that something like that would require hardware we consumers can only dream about...
i suppose i could be wrong, though... anyone with more experience in coding/gaming/etc?

 

[The_Fur]

7.62 actually has less wounding capcity then a well placed .40

Because the 7,62 will not tumble or anything. It'll go in one place out the other. The body will effectively seal the straight hole it leaves (never underestimate the absorbing powers of the human body). A .40 will most likely tumble a bit and get stuck inside you. Moving around keeping the wound open... yummie.

As for the 5.56 wiell it is supposed to fragment, only thing is this happens after some 20cm which basically means it's most likely amlmost out of your body when it starts to tumble and thus it may leave a nasty fleshwound but it can in fzct be even less usefull the a 7.62 because it doesn't have the same velocity and size (and meaning a lesser Hydrostatic shock effect).

 

[Puncher]

That is not true. Of course the 7.62 will tumble, all military bullets do. That is because their shape is such that the mass is concentrated in the rear. Take a look at the following site:
http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/military_bullet_wound_patterns.html

The 7.62mm NATO will fragment if produced right (hehe West German), in contrast to the American produced 7.62mm.

Some pictures:

 

[poaw]

You're right, the vest will most likely dissipate most of the energy from pistol caliber rounds. And it's unlikely that you will put enough rounds into the vest to make it cease in it's functioning.

Inflicting serious damage through a vest is unlikely, as part of the rating for the vests are that they withstand the blunt trauma of the round's impact.
Most vests will actually stop rounds with a higher rating from penetrating, but they fail to stop the blunt trauma.

In conclusion: Use AP ammo.

EDIT: What the hell happened to that West German round?
EDIT2: Would that degree of fragmentation have an effect on armor penetration?

 

[asmodeus]

well, see that the point of the bullet is still intact

 

[LordKhaine]

Remember guys that armour will be introduced when the damage system is different. Looking at the list for 2.86 even, I see first steps to take more than just "health" lose into account when you get shot.

* Your point of view is thrown off based on the caliber of damage received.

Coming back to someones concern with the lack of armour penetration that SMG's pack. Remember how easy it is to aim an MP5, and the huge rate of fire most SMG's pack compared to assualt rifles. Most people firing MP5's in INF manage to get several body/limb/head hits in a very short space of time. Body armour wont make you a tank like in most games.

 

[The_Fur]

Puncher... check that graphic again. Check the depth at which 7,62 starts to tumble... that is at 20cm. By that time it'll most likely have passed trough most of you.


Now the russain 5.45x39 that one is nasty since the soft point will make it tumble immediately after impact causing massive trauma.

 

[asmodeus]

Originally posted by The_Fur
Puncher... check that graphic again. Check the depth at which 7,62 starts to tumble... that is at 20cm. By that time it'll most likely have passed trough most of you.
.

so what?

you thougth your back ache was bad?

 

[The_Fur]

well if you look closely all it will do is leave a 7,62mm hole in you. Actually it'll be smaller since the body has a tendency to close it up quite fast. The damage it does when it doesn't hit a vital organ therefor is minimal. A .40 is not only bigger but will also be moving around inside you. It'll do more damage therefor since it'll keep the wounds open if you are moving.

 

[Puncher]

Some more pictures:

The Russian 5.45*39:

The new 5.56*45 (fired from M16A2):

The profile of a 7.62mm bullet was an American one. the German round behaves much differently, more like the M16 round, only larger:

The West German steel jacket is about 0.6mm thick near the cannelure and the US copper jacket is about 0.8mm thick at the same point. This design difference is responsible for a vast difference in performance in tissue. The German bullet, after travelling point-forward for only about 8 cm, yaws and breaks at the cannelure. The flattened point section retains only about 66 % of the bullet's weight, the remaining 45 % mass becomes fragments [the big picture I first posted]. The wound profile can be described as an enlarged M16 profile [see above], with dimensions of the tissue disruption increased by 60 % (temporary stress cavity about 22 cm diameter; permanent crush cavity about 11 cm diameter, penetration depth of the bullet point about 58 cm). The uncomplicated thigh wound from this bullet is likely to have a large exit with the loss of substantial tissue near the exit; still, this might not be a very serious wound since the bullet fragmentation does not occur until beyond 10 cm penetration depth and, in most shots, the bullet will have passed well beyond the major vessels before this occurs. The abdomen shot, however, because of the much enlarged permanent cavity from bullet fragmentation, is likely to prove fatal in a majority of cases.

So much for the bullet being not very dangerous. If you have the German round (others, such as the Swedish rounds, are said to be as "bad") and get hit in the torso, that's it.

[edit]Found some pictures of pistol-cartridge wounds:[/edit]

early .45ACP 185gr. Silvertip Winchester at 940 f/s

Remington 125gr JSP .357 Magnum at 1390 f/s

Compare that to a well-designed rifle-cartridge. The pistol causes shallow wounds, but no real permanent cavity, since it neither breaks up nor tumbles.

 

[The_Fur]

Well i believe I said that before, (were many othe r threads on this in the old forums) anyway the US 7,62x51 nato does NOT fragment. It'll indeed leave a 7.62 hole in you. The pic stated of this 7,62nato is of the old german (east or west forgot) 7,62x51 nato and it does make a huge mess.

I don't know about modern 7,62 nato though.