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Body Armor

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by Harpoon, Aug 8, 2001.

  1. Harpoon

    Harpoon New Member

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    I know I've mentioned this before, but I never really got an answer, just alot of "Each of my rounds is a headshot and I never miss" kind of testosterone-packed stuff.

    I really like the way INF is now. What is best is the weapon diversity. What I mean by that is that people actaully use All The Guns. In one game you can see people using the M16 or the SG-552 (which are the most used) but you'll also see alot of shotguns when the map suits it, along with MP5s with laser sights, P90s, AKMSU's, Sniper rifles and even the occasional M9 Pistol (!). Most of the weapons are pretty much equally used. Why? Because they do damage. The M16 and SG-552 Carabine both kill with two shots to the body, same with the AKMSU. The sumachine guns all kill with about 4-5 shots. The DE and the FiveSeveN both kill with 2 body shots, shotgun kills with one, etc... The point is: You can not afford to get hit.

    But, once they put body armor in, all your going to see is: M16's, SG Carabines, and AK's and the odd sniper rifle on long range map. The pistols, shotguns, and subguns will not be used at all because they can be stopped by armor.

    Wait, I hear you saying that all you have to do is aim for the head, but that isn't really an option. A headshot is nice, but you cant rely on one each time. When a guy is strafing around you with the occasional jump, you dont have time to aim for the little black bobbing thing that is his head, you just aim for the center mass. If you have an MP5, in that case, you will find that after 15 rounds he will still not be dead because the MP5 has .40 caliber bullets that the lvl IV armor eats for breakfast. Of course, you will be dead from a couple of shots from his M16 before you get to the sixth shot of your MP5, because the M16 has 5.56mm rounds that will go through YOUR armor. And no, people wont shed their armor because of lack of speed, dodging bullets isn't really a sound defence against people who know how to aim. If you have an MP5, and they have an assault rifle, they WILL win because their sights will be on your center mass before yours are aligned with their head. And its alot easier to strafe while keep your sights on someones chest than it is to keep them on their head.

    So, what do you think? You got to admit the assault rifles are allready overused as it is, think of what will happen when people will actaully need the penetrating power? This is the only UT mod, or HL mod, or any game that has actual realistic damage, where you can not afford to get hit.
     
  2. the vrrc

    the vrrc noexistant user

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    Body armor will be quite heavy and restrict your choice of weapons. No one with level IV body armor will be able to bunny hop. I wouldn't worry about body armor's introduction, the team should know what to do to make everything balanced and realistic.
     
  3. Kisen_K

    Kisen_K S&M Airlines

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    And remember, even tough you have body armour. You will feel it badly when you get hit. Maybe get knocked over etc...
     
  4. c+k|nEVeRmOre

    c+k|nEVeRmOre ~A.K.A. wesley_sniper~

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    That looks like <i>something</i>...I can't quite put my finger on it, though...this is driving me nuts...
     
  5. Ionman

    Ionman New Member

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    yeah get knocked over so it only really helps if you hit from afair. Dropping weapons after a few hit would also be cool,
     
  6. Ranger .223

    Ranger .223 Leadin the way

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    I know!

    i know what it is! it a exlamation pont in parentheses! lol
     
  7. Harpoon

    Harpoon New Member

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    Heh... lol I didnt notice that. Doesn't really look like it tho, the person would have find himself falling into toilets alot :)

    But as long as it allows the enemy to Take Hits and Keep Firing (even if your knocked around) it wont change maps. Unless it knocks you Flat On Your Ass so the enemy can give you a mercy shot in the face, which would make body armor useless anyway. But thanks to todays shock plates etc.. bullets shouln't know you down when your wearing high enough armor.
     
  8. St0rmcaller

    St0rmcaller [AFA]'s unoffical godfather

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    My opinion. Screw body armor. I don't like the idea of it. But then again, the INF team has not disappointed me yet.
     
  9. SoSilencer

    SoSilencer Harry Goz (1932 - 2003)

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    Just FYI Harpoon, the P90, MP5, M9, and 57 all take 3 shots to hit. The M16, Sig, AK, PSG, DE, all take 2 hits. The Robar 1. The Shotgun, m203, and hk69 are variable, all capable of 1 shot kills with a direct hit, but splash damage doesn't require a direct hit.

    The only weapon that takes more than 3 hits to kill is a supressed p90 which takes 4 hits.
     
  10. Snakeye

    Snakeye Mk82HD

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    I wonder no one posted this before, but:
    Up to about 50m a US .223 ball round penetrates armor less than a 9mm ball - at least that was said in various posts on similar topics before. Reason is, that .223 ball rounds fragment if they have sufficient speed, so they have less penetration.

    Anyway I think with different ammo types you can load AP rounds into most of your weapons, which may penetrate body armor. Since most combat in INF takes place at ranges lower than 50m you'd better pack .223 AP rounds for your M16 or SIG551(not 552).

    Snakeye :D
     
  11. LoTekK

    LoTekK Peon

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    unless i'm mistaken, the SS109 has a little tungsten insert that helps it defeat body armor to some extent... don't know how well it works in that regard, though, as the m-16s we used were modified A1s with the old 1 in 12 twist, hence we used the older nato 5.56s... anyone care to comment on the SS109s?
     
  12. The_Fur

    The_Fur Back in black

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    From what i know the Standar US 5.56mm is not fully stabilised under 50m which means that it'll tumble on impact and in the case of body armour it makes it a pretty useless round.

    9mm is a more stable round though that will impact properly but then again 9mm is supposedly stopped anyway. Don't know about +P 9mm though.
     
  13. poaw

    poaw You used to sleep easy at night.

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    How many times is this going to come up?

    You can still shoot them where they aren't wearing armor (head, neck, arms, groin, legs). You can carry a FiveseveN for backup. You can use AP 9mm rounds. You can use a rifle and fire until the ceramic plates shatter. You could rely on teammates with harder hitting weapons.

    Dammit, if someone insist on being "special" and running around with a MP5/40 with subsonic ammo and a M9 with ball ammo. Then they deserve whatever they get.
    If you aren't able to use a SMG well enough to make it effective against the targets you encounter then stop using SMGs.
     
  14. The_Fur

    The_Fur Back in black

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    hehe, my tactic in R6 was rather then using a heavy m16 simply take a mp5k and mow their legs out :)
     
  15. poaw

    poaw You used to sleep easy at night.

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    My clan leader does that too.
    Anyone that says SMGs are useless in R6/RS must not know how to play the game. :)

    Another thing I noticed while re-reading the original post.

    There are two perfectly valid explaination for the "overuse" of ARs in INF.

    1) From a gameplay standpoint both the ARs provide noticable advantages via their ACOG scopes. Throw in the M203, in addition to a scope, on the primary weapon of the home country (USA, Canada, Holland, various others) of the majority of INF players and you have a real winner as far as popularity contests go. :)

    2) From a realism standpoint, almost all the soldiers in INF should be carrying an AR. There is a reason why the standard issue weapon to the majority of the world's Infantry is an Assault Rifle.
     
  16. Harpoon

    Harpoon New Member

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    ok paow, can you tell me what gives the MP5 an advantage over an M16 for example, once body armor is put in?

    The MP5 is weaker. Rate of fire is faster, but your better off with the controllable fire of the 3 round burst M16 than going crazy mofo full auto with the MP5. M16 has gren launcher and scope attachements (although scope isnt really usefull). MP5 is lighter, but I want INF to be realistic, circling strafing and stuff because you got a light loadout should be left to Quake. Besides, the 2-3 extra bulk that the MP5 has over the M16 will be superficial. People run around with their sights at chest level. This is a good position because it lets you see what's in front of you, while being an equal distance from aiming up and down if you are forced with that situation.

    Are you saying, paow, that if you meet someone with equal skill of you, that you will be able to put your sights on a specific body part (legs, head, and besides, the legs can take quite a few hits as it is) before they can down you with a 5.56mm burst to the center of your body where their crosshairs are aligned? Almost all combat in INF is CQB.

    Oh, and INF fighting isn't soldier fighting. We aren't the marines or anything here, we are SEAL's or other special forces operatives. Marines and other regular troops spend their time face first in the dirt hiding in the holes and getting rained on by artillery. Same with all the other troops of the world. They use the assault rifles because their combat usually takes place out in the open, where they support mechanized elements and so forth.

    Submachine guns, pistols, and shotguns are used by SEALs and Counter-Terror operatives because they actaully go in at close range. They are the ones that clear out rooms where the average engagements last one second in the proximity of a few meters. Submachine guns, pistols, and shotguns are all light and less bulky compared to a full sized assault rifle. Unfortunatley, this can't be simulated in INF, stuff like getting the stock of your M16 snagged in a doorway right when an enemy jumps out, or having to take one extra second too much to turn and engage a new threat because you where getting weighed down by your M16, unlike the mostly plastic MP5. Simply slowing the player's movement speed down doesn't do this vital aspect of actual combat justice.
     
  17. Kuroshio Apocal

    Kuroshio Apocal Sucka Free

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    Harpoon... I don't even know where to start. First off, his name is poaw, not paow. Christ on toast, it's 4 damned letters. Pi-oh-ay-dubya.

    Back on topic, I'll try to respond to each of your points.

    Yes, the .40 S&W round is weaker than the 5.56mm NATO round. Three rounds of 5.56mm NATO vesus three rounds of .40 S&W should be no contest. Of course that assumes that the one carrying the M16A2 is just as skilled at gun control as the guy with the MP5/40. More often than not, that is not the case. Handling the recoil on the MP5/40 is far easier than attempting the same with the M16A2. Even with me using the M16A2 80% of the time, I can put 9 rounds from the MP5/40 into the same (if not tighter) grouping as 3 rounds (fired on burst) from the M16A2. My point? If you practice with submachine guns enough, you will be more than a match for the average person carrying an assault rifle.

    First off, yes he can do that and frequently does. Second, normally when someone fires a burst from the M16A2, the first round hits and the next two go flying over the target's head. With a weapon with less recoil or more spread (submachine guns, pistols and shotguns) typically the first shot hits, the second shot hits, and the third either misses or hits the target in the head. Almost all combat in INF is CQB? Short range, yes. Medium range at most. But mostly CQB? Depends on the maps you play. I would say about a third of combat in INF is CQB. About a fourth is short range, and another forth medium range, with the remainder being long range (EP).

    Boy, did you set yourself up for this one. As stated in the manual:

    Infiltration has a style unlike most military FPS genres in that operational procedure may not be limited to just a covert role. You and your squad can be given such grunt tasks as clearing an area of hostiles, cooperating in attacks on enemy installations, defense of allied equipment and facilities, or general reconnaissance.

    - General Warren

    I believe you just made my point for me. Submachine guns, shotguns and pistols are to be used at close ranges. That is why players use them now. They are the most effective weapons when it comes to short-range combat and CQB.

    Who says it can't be simulated in INF? They might include an inertia system for weapons as well as one for movement, no one but them knows.
     
  18. Harpoon

    Harpoon New Member

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    Not really. At close range the shots from the M16 recoil up, but if you aim at center mass the first two shots hit the belly, then chest, and the last one either misses or hits the head. 2 shots kill as it is.

    What is "Inertia"? in the INF sense?

    And no, its quite the opposite. Once armor is put in the assault rifles will be ALWAYS used for CQB (which they shouln't be) because they provide the most effective stopping power, because when you meet someone face to face the first couple of shots are the only ones that count. I mean, if you got a shottie or a pistol or a subgun you HAVE to aim for the head, and they don't. Don't tell me that's not an advantage.
     
  19. poaw

    poaw You used to sleep easy at night.

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    Well the MP5 is full auto, has less recoil and is less bulky than the M16.

    1) Yes it is weaker, which gives you a decided advantage when trying to control it on full auto. He has to carefully control his bursts inorder for him to stay on target, you don't.

    2) The M16 has those attachment because they emphasize it's role as a weapon that will be used in a basic 0300/11B infantry role. The MP5 on the other hand is more of a scout type weapon. The Supressor emphasizes that role.

    3) The 2 extra bulk isn't superfical when you're going for a low bulk loadout. That's two more M67s or another magazine of ammo you can carry right there.

    4) What does people running around with the weapon at chest level have to do with armor?

    No. That's why my scout config is so low bulk. So that I don't have to get into toe to toe engagements with people who are better armed than me. Like I said before, if someone insist on being "special" and running around with an inadequate weapon for the task at hand, then they deserve what they get.

    SEALs only use MP5s when it is nessacary to the mission at hand. On a regular patrol they take a mix of M4/M203s, M14s, and M60E3s. The reason SFGs can get away with using MP5s in CQB is that most of their enemies aren't wearing body armor. On a side note, a lot of police organizations are switching from SMGs to compact ARs.



    1) It can be simulated but was removed to because it caused graphical errors.

    2) This too can be simulated. They can add various factor that would affect the free-floating weapons. BTW, the MP5 is not mostly plastic.
     
  20. poaw

    poaw You used to sleep easy at night.

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    Future versions of INF will have a more realistic damage model. Which means if you want to disable your target you need to hit him where it counts.

    I would assume it had something to do with heavier weapons being harder to manuever.

    1) You're right, when armor comes in and someone is serious about attacking/defending a position they'll use an AR, just like Real LifeĀ©

    2) As I said before you don't have to aim for the head. You can fire at and disable them by shooting any of their unarmored extremities. Or if you feel like taking an intelllectual leap forward, you could use AP 9mm rounds, The FiveseveN pistol, or a P90. At the strategic level, you shouldn't be running around getting into standup gunfights with a puny SMG. You should be using their low bulk to maximize your mobility for a scouting role.

    And just incase you didn't see it the previous thre times I posted it:
    YOU CAN USE 9MM AP ROUNDS TO DEFEAT BODY ARMOR. THE P90 AND FIVESEVEN ALSO DEFEAT BODY ARMOR.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2001

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