CliffyB Talks Game Development

[UnrealGrrl]

They do . Digital distribution does address a lot of inventory costs, but few are willing to go solely e-distribution with no retail presence. Even Valve discourages this approach.

And FWIW all UT3 SKUs totaled has outsold UT2004 by a fairly large margin worldwide. It's not an apples to apples comparison since UT2004 didn't have a console version, but considering half the SKUs haven't shipped yet (PS3 Euro/360), there's the definitely possibility it will be the best selling UT title in the franchise’s history.

congrats! it should be because despite ITS MANY PROBLEMS THAT STILL NEED FIXIN its still the best UT ever!

And that's what really matters right! Who cares that it's not the most fun title in the franchises history. Who cares that it's not the best title in the franchises history. As long as it sells as much copies as McDonald's sells cheeseburgers, then it must be good!

well ive been playing since '99 and i think its the best UT yet and i dont even like fast food

<warning, long developer rant>

Not only is he talking about his own opinion, but he's doing so from the point of view of the lead designer on Gears, a console focused game. If his head where anywhere else, then I'd really be worried.

You can talk about CoD and Orange Box all you want, but the fact still remains that their console sales are on the order of 10 times their current PC sales. And their PC fans are just as up in arms as ours. This is not a phenominon centralized around Epic or Unreal.

Yes the UT3 UI needs work; yes, we're working on it; and by god, yes you've managed to remember to mention it on occasion. But I'd agree with Brizz that UT3 is about the most fun I've had in the series yet, that the gameplay is really solid. And as for the "consolization" of the game, thats a total B.S. statement -- it doesn't even mean anything, its just a buzz word that you use to tell me that your favorite feature was not included, or that you're unhappy with a design decision we made. We love feedback, and we totaly want to fix as many issues as we can, but saying something meaningless like "the game is consolized" doesn't help anyone because it doesn't mean anything. The truth is that UT was ported from PC to console, not the other way around, despite what you may have been led to believe. PC was our lead sku for a reason, and the game is 100% PC at its core. As has been pointed out in the past, UT2003/4 was in fact console ported to PC, so maybe you're saying you DO want a more console focused game? I'm being facetious, of course, but please get your facts straight.

And the petty whining was just as bad with UT and UT2003 and UT2004 as it has been with UT3, and subsequent patches addressed just as major and just as many issues -- the difference is several years of retrospect on past titles while UT3 is still fresh on people's minds.

Flame on, brethren.

no flames - great points and thanks for popping in!

ill be thrilled if CB was only talking about Gears/Console and so would alotta other ppl. but on the heels of the Mark Reins 'consoles are stealing pc gamers' article that seems to have the same sentiment its a lil disappointing is all.

and thanks for trying to get the UI and menus and other missing features together for us - bcause those of us who are playing and enjoying the game do appreciate it!

sure the whining has always been here - thats what the interweb was invented for right? but when UT3 was released there was 'something' missing... unlike previous Unreal games, as good as this game is (and i think its the best one ever - even with vehicles ), but unlike any other Unreal/UT title, it didnt feel finished, and thats where alot of the negativity comes from imnsho.

Both of you... Id love to see where you are getting your numbers.

95% of ppl at BU love pink underwear according to a recent poll.

only if hal & cliffyb are wearing it!

So Epic finally admits what we all have known all along.
>>>Insert alot of Negative stuff about Epic here<<<

hard to take anything you say about anything having to do with Epic seriously considering your avatar.

Instead of stating the obvious why not come up with some real numbers.

Anuban i know ya mean well - but arguing with the people who have the real numbers when you dont doesnt make sense

I understand there is room for several types of games and one game can overshine another, but seriously even everyone on this forum is saying lets have a game of CoD, even the people who defend ut3 like the holy grail.

actually theres alot of players like me who have no interest in any army warfare realism terrosit type games AT ALL and will never play COD or Battlefield or CS or even TF cause I(we're) not interested AT ALL. so making sweeping statements like everyone thinks COD4 rulez is silly cause i don't. in fact i think realism type warfare game suck just on pricipal, though i did like americas army for some odd reason.

and even though i do defend UT3 im also one of its harsh critics so nyah!

It looks like NPD is trying to shore up the digital distribution discrepancies: http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/51259

the gaming world really needs its own Billboard or Variety that charts everything in game sales.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

EA's actual announcement to investors, tho, was that Crysis had "gone platinum" - which generally means copies sold, not shipped. Don't get me wrong, I don't trust EA any more than anyone else, but dismissing this with no data is silly. Even The Witcher cleared a staggeringly high number of copies worldwide, approaching 1 million and possibly exceeding it by now, so I don't find it impossible to believe that Crysis did so in the worldwide market after 3 months of sales including the holiday season.

I wasn't trying to discount them I was simply saying we can't verify that they have actually had 1 million people buy the game.

And retailers rarely ever send product back to the distributor for a refund. Haven't you ever been to Gamestop and seen the 3 year old copy of some awful game all banged up and returned twelve times sitting on the shelf?

 

[Molgan]

I have a feeling that up until someone takes a trip around the world and count sold titles manually, we will never reach a general consensus on the subject.

 

[Soggy_Popcorn]

Despite how Brizz, the developers, and others are attempting to defend UT3's quality, there is a crapload of evidence against them. UT3 might have good gameplay, but to find it you must sift through a ton of turd to find the gold nugget...

Other games such as COD4 and TF2 have way more people playing for the reason that the ENTIRE game is designed intelligently, and they ended up on consoles too. See Sir_Brizz's sig. He has played COD4 the most this week. And so have most other people with xfire sigs here.

In conclusion, though I, like the majority of people here, enjoy UT3's gameplay, I also side with the market in playing other more polished games. I would like to enjoy UT3 online, but the people have spoken, and there is a massive void of players.

Oh well, even if Epic has "realized" that the PC is unprofitable, other developers continue to give us quality games. Let's hope Mass Effect turns out well.

 

[EdWinchester]

actually theres alot of players like me who have no interest in any army warfare realism terrosit type games AT ALL and will never play COD or Battlefield or CS or even TF cause I(we're) not interested AT ALL. so making sweeping statements like everyone thinks COD4 rulez is silly cause i don't. in fact i think realism type warfare game suck just on pricipal, though i did like americas army for some odd reason.
and even though i do defend UT3 im also one of its harsh critics so nyah!

indeed I did the stretch that point to far, so yes thats wrong. But for gamers who like the overall style of fpses.. alot recommend the cod4.

Regarding numbers sold, you will never agree on that or prove anything by that, because as molgan says you wont agree on the source.

 

[MonsOlympus]

Sigh, this is getting old. All Im reading is blah blah blah atm! I just think its a damn shame that people have to bag UT3 every chance they get, we get it some of you arnt happy and dont like the game.

Im wondering what Cliffyb has to do with alot of this, sure Gears is on PC people mentioned some bugs.

Makes you wonder if the sales would pick up at all if people around the world wernt reading dribble like this on the forums, especially in relation to the PC version of the game. Hell all you are doing is giving them more ammo as to stay away from PC, then again perhaps some of you are console gamers who arnt happy with the game, that could be it for all I know.

We should be working to help Epic by listing things we dont specifically like somewhere or things which could be fixed, you know a thread without all the COD4, TF2 sales numbers etc etc

 

[Sir_Brizz]

Despite how Brizz, the developers, and others are attempting to defend UT3's quality, there is a crapload of evidence against them. UT3 might have good gameplay, but to find it you must sift through a ton of turd to find the gold nugget...

I think the gameplay in UT3 is good, but I've complained about many other aspects of the game here on these very forums. I don't know why "disagreeing with UT3 blind hate" somehow translates to "finds nothing wrong with the game whatsoever" around here. I love the game, I have issues with it but I don't hate it.

I feel like many aspects of the UI in particular just feel unfinished and untested. I suspect that if Epic were to let us know when the current UI was implemented we would all agree that more time could have been spent on that part of the game. It's not a core part of the game, but it is an essential part of the game.

There are a variety of reasons I've been playing CoD4 lately. One of them is that there are challenging things to do in the form of achievements, and I feel that is one area that UT3 could have shone more for me. Things like "Shoot an enemies claymore through a wall and kill him with it" are things to work toward.

 

[Soggy_Popcorn]

I think the gameplay in UT3 is good, but I've complained about many other aspects of the game here on these very forums. I don't know why "disagreeing with UT3 blind hate" somehow translates to "finds nothing wrong with the game whatsoever" around here. I love the game, I have issues with it but I don't hate it.

I feel like many aspects of the UI in particular just feel unfinished and untested. I suspect that if Epic were to let us know when the current UI was implemented we would all agree that more time could have been spent on that part of the game. It's not a core part of the game, but it is an essential part of the game.

There are a variety of reasons I've been playing CoD4 lately. One of them is that there are challenging things to do in the form of achievements, and I feel that is one area that UT3 could have shone more for me. Things like "Shoot an enemies claymore through a wall and kill him with it" are things to work toward.

Sorry, I was referring to your tendency to blame the gamers for UT's failure (yes, it did sadly) rather than its un-polished-ness. To say that whining forumers caused its demise is rather narrow-minded. Upwards of 1 mil. people picked up the beta IIRC, and there are currently, what, like 200 people playing online? They were just deterred by the developers' unwillingness to fix the game, which was released as a beta with more maps.

 

[MonsOlympus]

How many gunslinger awards you got brizz?

I dunno I guess Im think a give alittle get alittle mentality might be the best for all parties here, we've paid for the game so we are in there and I guess people have a right to say what they want. I just think alittle constructive feedback might go a long way or perhaps even a q/a so we can ask some questions directly.

One I could think of is why does the raptor take such low damage when crashing into stuff?

 

[Ogs]

I'm not ignoring he problem or giving up on it. I'm telling you that you are "talking to the wrong people" so to speak. Jeff Morris didn't produce or have anything to do with Gears PC. If you look in the manual, Rod Fergusson is the producer on that game.

You're essentially trying to talk to the company that owns the company that repairs helicopters instead of trying to talk to the repair people directly.

Gears already had one title update (yeah, a patch). There's no reason to think they don't have at least one more in the works. I don't expect you to be calm and excited, I expect you to be reasonable. Aren't you a professional game developer? Besides, this is more like "1 out of 100 helicopters are missing a bolt and that could eventually cause a non-fatal problem under a certain situation". This isn't half of the game is missing.

Rein has said on the official forums in a post another patch is coming. Anyhoo......

I respect Epic, and i love there games, but when you buy a game on Day 1, have problems playing it (stutter), with nothing official being said on the forum when loads of others are reporting the same thing (and we know Epic can be quite vocal), for 3 months so far, you really start to get frustrated. Gears PC has been sitting on my shelf gathering dust for 3 months, i simply cant enjoy it . UT3 on the other hand, ran perfectly fine (and i love it).

And quite frankly, Cliffy is saying what most people know. Its far too complicated/frustrating for a average Joe to buy a PC and play games, consoles cut the crap and reap the rewards. You try telling a console gamer to update drivers, hunt down patches, tweak video settings, upgrade this n that. As much as i love PC Gaming (it IS superior when done right), it needs to do ALOT to bring in more gamers, i could go on for ages about how id do it, but thats another day . Its not dieng, just moving down the ranks, which could all change if the recent "PC Gaming Alliance" actually does something usefull.

 

[Anuban]

Anuban i know ya mean well - but arguing with the people who have the real numbers when you dont doesnt make sense

Why are you so quick to believe what a company tells you, especially a company that has a product even you are not 100% satisified with (although it is hard to tell what side you are really on at times) ... ... that's cool I know you meant well too when you directed that at me.

BTW the person I directed that statement at did not have real numbers either so in this particular instance of nicely scolding me you were off base.

 

[Emmet Otter]

I myself really do like the gameplay. Its not that bad at all. I like the way the movement feels. Im not too crazy about the delay in the dodge nor the slow weapon change. I know everything cant be perfect. My one gameplay gripe mostly is the bots, but this 2nd patch seems like its addressing most of the problems with their behaviour. So thats a good thing.

My biggest complaint is the lack of features and options in the UI. No custom xhairs, modifiable bots, weaponthrow, no saved settings, no saved active mutators lists, ext.........

 

[Sir_Brizz]

Sorry, I was referring to your tendency to blame the gamers for UT's failure (yes, it did sadly) rather than its un-polished-ness. To say that whining forumers caused its demise is rather narrow-minded. Upwards of 1 mil. people picked up the beta IIRC, and there are currently, what, like 200 people playing online? They were just deterred by the developers' unwillingness to fix the game, which was released as a beta with more maps.

I don't think I've ever claimed they CAUSED it's failure. If I did I made a mistake and I rescind that comment right now.

However, I do think that the whining forumers contributed to the state it is in right now.

 

[Soggy_Popcorn]

I don't think I've ever claimed they CAUSED it's failure. If I did I made a mistake and I rescind that comment right now.

However, I do think that the whining forumers contributed to the state it is in right now.

Point conceded. I just want a populated game. Yes, CoD4 and TF2 offer that, but I'm not a fan of either's gameplay, which is almost pure spam.

 

[MonsOlympus]

Hey so whats this kewl king of the hill gametype Ive heard so much about?

 

[Anuban]

I just think alittle constructive feedback might go a long way or perhaps even a q/a so we can ask some questions directly.

One I could think of is why does the raptor take such low damage when crashing into stuff?

People gave Epic plenty of criticism ... constructive and otherwise ... when the beta demo was out. Did they listen to most of it ... I think not or we would not have this huge of a mess with the game itself and soooo many folks would not have left or resorted to just complaining about it. For example ... why is it that after two beta patches I will still need to load up mutators I like to use and set the match time and bot skill level each and every time I start UT? Why are the bot rosters shared for all gametypes ... team oriented or not ... this makes creating the team you want much more difficult than it has to be or has ever been in past UT games? Why is there no DX10 code in the game to at least allow for the proper usage of FSAA as in Gears of War PC? What happened to motion blur on the PC ... it is in Gears of War PC? Should I stop there or continue ... see the problem is we can't answer to these REAL types of questions but entropy has no problem showing up to defend sales numbers of the game when as a developer he should be answering questions about the functionality of the game (or lack of in certain areas) ... at least imo.

 

[MonsOlympus]

Well you got acouple of good ones there hey I must say, the bot skill one I fully agree on. So many times avg bots get pwnd in my mod tests cause I cbf changing it again, mutators do stay across matches actually like when you go to main menu but not when you leave the game... Get this though, the console saves your commands

We could do this in another thread though and keep this one on topic, perhaps the mods could deleted any non constructive posts from it? Im happy for mods to make up their minds on that one. Bullet points even would be the way to go hey, keep it all bullet notes? I noticed the UT3.5 one but some of the suggestions I do have could be added to UT3 in a patch Im sure, lets do it hey instead of talking about it

 

[Spank$hot_BT]

UT2003/4 was in fact console ported to PC, so maybe you're saying you DO want a more console focused game? I'm being facetious, of course, but please get your facts straight.

Ok, in that case I DO want a more console focused game! 2k4 was the sweet spot and while UT3 is quite good, it falls way short of 2K4 imo. More advanced movement, crisper feel and cleaner gfx ftw! UT3 feels too rubbery and plays too spammy.

I notice Epic staff are starting to be a little more vocal of late (too late?), which is a good thing. As a great many of their once loyal PC fan base seem to be deserting them and online numbers keep falling. That does have the knock on effect of leaving you with the much more easily satiated/docile PS3 fan base, so maybe this was a deliberate tactic?

Since you raised the point regarding low PC sales numbers, i have to ask why you built the game from the top down. ie: runs properly only on very high end PCs. Why didn't you try to take advantage of the far greater proportion of PC users and build the game around their systems and make it upwardly scalable from their. I'm sure Valve (with their greater PC sales) do this and it would make the game available to a far greater proportion of the PC userbase which would significantly eat into this 1/10 figure you mention. My own view is because the console market (shallower, gfx obsessed gamers) was the Priority and that UT3 also served as another tech demo of your unreal engine technology, which i believe is your primary business!?

You clearly now have 2 very different UT games (UT3/99 and the 2KX games). Other developers build on the base of their tried and tested gameplay formula, while Epic are all over the place. These games have clearly divided the community and surely a major source of your ongoing problems with your fans. So why not make 2 UT games utilising the same engine/assets? If the modders have the fundamental aspects of a game they like then i'm sure they'd do the rest.

 

[LMN8R]

I didn't say anything about CoD4, but I'd be surprised if there were more than 2 million sales on PC worldwide.

How is it hard to believe? If Crysis' 88,000 NPD reported-sales can turn into 1 million, CoD 4's could easily turn into 3-4 million.

Especially considering that CoD 4 has been Steam's top selling game for months, and Crysis isn't even on Steam.

 

[MeepZero]

On a total side note here, anyone wonder how bad Cliffy is gettin yelled at after saying that?