Yurch's antics reach a new level!

[yurch]

Why, do you like playing around with
My, narrow scope of reality
I, can feel my stamina slipping
I think my Tango's down

Look in the scope, stare in my soul
I get Yurchified.
-Monk_Zero
I gotta do something with all these quotes...

 

[St0rmcaller]

Originally posted by yurch
Probobly. Shouldn't you have the view set basically before you aim at the target?
Ah, well, add it to teh pile.
To look into:
Aim stops yah from runnin. (jogging for scopes)
Holding aim drops your sensitvity over time.
Standing/crouch/prone breath mulitplier.
More nades!
Teh instacrouch sensitvity.
Robar zoom speed?

Aim stops yah from runnin. (jogging for scopes)
Why not stop moving?

Holding aim drops your sensitvity over time.
I do not see this as neceassary. The position you are in adequately reflects your ability to aim in.

Standing/crouch/prone breath mulitplier.
Sounds cool.

More nades!
Can you make it a simply multiplier? Such as 1 40mm in your loadout is equal to 2 or 3 with RA?

 

[yurch]

It is a multiplier, err, kinda. Or I thought... It just kinda gets mauled by my inventory functions. Will look into.
And the stopping moving - I think its best to force the player to take thier finger off the mashed 'forward' key.
revised?:
Aim stops yah from runnin. (jogging for scopes)
I will work out an effect. You guys can give it the thumbs up or down.
//Holding aim drops your sensitvity over time. :tdown:
Sorry james, I don't think I will implement this just yet.
Standing/crouch/prone breath mulitplier.
I will hold on this one for a bit. The breath functions can go wild on you if you mess up.
More nades!
Will look into a more user-friendly method.
Teh instacrouch sensitvity.
This is another one of the "I try it, you buy it" ideas. Im guessing half of you will not notice.
Robar zoom speed/ robar FOV effect
Messing with this later. I have not been successfull in modifying the effect yet.
Shotgun movement penalties
This gets priority one at the moment.
Ballistics.
Triggerpull idea.
Guess I will shove these into the back a little while longer.

 

[JamesT]

I think I've said that. In computer first-person-shooting games, you turn = you turn WHOLE BODY. Even though INF has a unique feather called "free aim area," the mouse sensitivity is THE SAME in this area.

In real life you don't turn WHOLE BODY to aim. Especially when you concentrate on an accurate aim, probably for a long-range shot, your hands can do very minute adjustments to your aim.

Another thing I want to argue -- a shooting position does not affect your physical aiming resolution in real life. A shooting position in fact should affect your steadiness and difficulty to aim, not resolution.

Currently we obviously have some problem with resolution. We know it is because of hardware limitation. I have figured out a way to represent a "real aim" even better than the current way and also avoid the hardware resolution problem.

I will write my idea down in the following paragraghs, but it seems to require a total re-write of RA, which I doubt yurch is willing to do.

P.S. I believe the resolution problem will become even bigger and more important in the future when the scope visual effect is implemented right.

---

The current problem is that the program requires our pointing devices ( mice ) to work at a higher resolutin than the hardware's physical resolution. I assume 300 dpi as the hardware's physical resolution here. ( This is a very stupid and tragic limitation if your OS is Windows 2000. Windows 2000 limits the mouse resolution at 300 dpi no matter how high the resolution your mouse really has. I don't know if WindowXP does the same stupid thing, though. ) Even if you have an optical mouse, it can only give 800 dpi and no more. That's just not enough to give a perfect scroll without causing the grid-effect when there is a 12x magnification, and it's even worse if your screen resolution is higher.

What if we make RA work under 300 dpi but still keep the same effect as it is now? Is that possible?

I think yes, if we include this idea proposed by many other people -- weapon inertia.

When a player starts to turn, RA makes the turn accelerate and decelerate. During the acceleration and deceleration, keeps the hardware request to 300 dpi ( if it is more than 300 dpi ), and there is a state between the acceleration and the deceleration, in which the hardware request works in exactly the same way as the current RA -- keep the same angular velocity. If this is done right, there will be no grid effect for very careful aiming, and if a player wants to make a hasty aim ( he/she moves his/her mouse very fast ), firstly the inertia will make it difficult to obtain a good aim; secondly, RA can be made as such that if a fast mouse movement is detected, cancel the player's concentration.

Also I would like to suggest another concept be implemented -- muscle tremble for standing and crouching shooting position. This is an angular effect, which means the more magnifying power, the more obviously this effect will be seen. And of course it is bigger when standing than crouching.

Undoubtedly, what mentioned above needs some tweak to get a satisfactory set of coefficients used by the whole process. But it is more REAL.

 

[jlamb_vo]

I have been asking for weapon inertia for two years

If done subtley, this could have a fantastic impact on not only the realism of the game, but the feel of it on a whole IMO.

This could go overboard and complelely muddy the the games control, but done just right would really create the illusion of 'bulk' to the weapon, right now its kinda like shooting imaginary air guns

Applied to all weapons this would also make people depend on situational awareness more I think, as swinging an assault rifle around a large arc would actually be felt, reducing extreme snap-shots dramatically. The more aware/cautious player would really be able to get the drop on someone, and there would be more of an advantage to using SMGs/Pistols in CQB.

It may also help bugs with the weapon collision, if I understand correctly the collisions often happens between engine ticks or something so that the collision does not register and the weapon passes through the obstruction... a result of being able to whip weapons around as fast as we want.

The only issue with this is perhaps how it may affect the players overall turning speed. You can look around pretty fast in real life, although turning while holding a weapon considering moment of inertia (don't know how well this particular theory holds, but is the closest I can think of) will be very different, and from what I understand so far there is not a way to truly seperate the weapon aiming from the camera.

In short, I would love weapon inertia but am concerned it would muddy the players ability to look around as well, which shouldn't be dependent on the bulk of their weapon.

I wish the player model could be seperated into legs/torso/head segments...

 

[yurch]

Originally posted by yurch on August 24th, 2001
Another idea...
Mouse Accelleration.
A complicated (but brilliant) function that allows a player to make fine movements while moving mouse(or joystick, dont forget them!) slowly... but still allows the player to whip around quickly.

Mind like a steel trap.
If you think about it, we can do that effect by dropping the overall sensitvity, then squaring the movements of the mouse, or something to that extent. Small movments about the center are small, due to low sensitvity, but large movements remain large.
Although I am not sure if this is the extent you had in mind.
Care must be taken in order to not make this too easy.
This is actually not that hard to implement. Keep the ideas and opinions coming, this is a project I intend to put a good deal of time into.
And as for muscle wobble, I have tried to do this, and basically have failed miserably. Turns the player into a vibrator. I need to redo the bobbing first, then it will be easier. All in due time.
I know this is a slow process, but RA has been 'distracted' with the more mundane process of keeping the gameplay at a more appropriate level. And I have exams.
Don't get discouraged. I'm still listening.

 

[Keganator]

Turns the player into a vibrator

Can you at least put this in for when the user is using a scoped rifle standing up?

 

[jlamb_vo]

Yurch, is the squared-sensitivity in response to the weapon inertia thing? Just want to make sure I am not responding out of context

The point of weapon inertia (as what I have in mind) is that not only would you get some 'drift' when moving it (its solution to the grid effect if I interpret JamesT's post correctly) it would also take time to move the weapon from a position of rest and especially changing directions. This would obviously be a very small amount, but enough to add virtual 'weight' to the weapons and make a difference not only with sharpshooting but CQB as well.

 

[yurch]

A good amount of that is hardcoded - right now there is not any dependancy of time for any movement - it is all instantaneous.
But, in a way, that is a good thing. If I add something along those lines, it will be solely under my control.
I see what you mean about the drift.

 

[jlamb_vo]

Say, with shouldered weapons, or at least when in a scope, instead of keeping the gun steady and using random wobble to affect aiming, what if the gun slowy drifted downward and the player had to continue to compensate, adding strain and natural 'wobble' to the aiming? Couple this with the inertia effect which in sharpshooting would mostly affect left/right motion. Existing wobble from breathing could stay, so the player still had to hold breath. I thought this is why IRL instead of fighting these small movements of a rifle, you simply guide it and let it drift into a position the target will move into.

So there is inertia dependent on the weapons bulk and the angular speed of the gun, and 'gravity' which slowly pulls the gun down, again the effect of which is related to the bulk of the weapon. The vertical movement would only be noticable when taking a very long shot (thus the gun is practically held stationary) as in normal usage the gun would be moved around too much to really notice any 'drift.' Leaning could amplify these effects?

 

[mute_dammit]

I'm definitely down with JamesT and Spunky's suggestions. I like the idea of weapon inertia. If you can't swing that for some reason, maybe this (even more complex, and somewhat less realistic) idea would work instead. It retains the idea of a maximum angular velocity, but pitches out all that mouse sensitivity stuff.

Old space-fighter sims, and possibly newer ones as well, had an annoying way of controlling the game if you used mouse input instead of joystick. A crosshair was painted on the screen, and you controlled the position of the crosshair with the mouse. The viewpoint would move toward the mouse position at an angular velocity proportional to the distance between the crosshair and the middle of the screen.

That alone isn't really enough to make gun handling any more difficult - just incredibly unrealistic. However, the really difficult-to-control sims gave your angular velocity its own inertia - that is, you couldn't just stop turning by centering the crosshair. You had to move the crosshair back to the opposite side of the screen and decelerate the turn.

The most obvious drawback of this control system is that it seems like a big step back from the realism that RA's all about, at least for general purpose aiming.

On the other hand, it makes fine aiming (like, 12x scoped aiming) feel much more realstic. Especially if you throw in the occasional random spike in angular velocity when the player's not concentrating / holding breath. Also, it turns the gridding effect to its advantage by making it harder to hold your aim on a particular point when standing than when prone, but never prevents you from aiming at a specific point (as long as you don't mind swinging past that point).

I'm not sure it'd even be a good idea to use something like this, but I had the thought so I figured I'd write it down just in case it can be applied elsewhere.

 

[yurch]

Oh lord no! Ive played that way before. It would make it hard to walk in a straight line down the street!

 

[jlamb_vo]

intoxicat.u

 

[yurch]

DM-INF-DukesOfHazzard.unr

 

[mute_dammit]

I should add (apparently) that all that crap I wrote was intended only for aimed mode - normal skulking about should be done with normal controls.

Dorks.

 

[yurch]

Seriously mute, I don't think it will work at all. I am well familliar with that system.

 

[Keganator]

I don't know...but I still like the slow drop. It could be 'turned off' when recoil is brought into play, to make it more realistic.



edit : 600th post in this thread!

 

[mute_dammit]

yurch
I don't think it will work at all.

I believe it.

But Spunky's new idea is even better.

Don't worry about messing with the controls, just require a breathalyzer signature and impose a 2 drink minimum.

Which gives me an even better even better idea. This Friday (after all classes are over) I'm taking a shot for every person that kills me, and 3 for every TK (my TK's, not yours). Booze and guns do mix!

 

[jlamb_vo]

lol why not just every TK, it will ease the frustration for you and amuse the rest of us

As far as turning off the effect during recoil, think of the result as the sum of all acting forces... the vertical force component resulting from the kick would be far greater than force due to gravity, so the gun would still rise.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a heavier gun actually negate some of the rise from the kick? I thought that rifles made with lots of wood and steel like the FAL and AK47 (not the SMU?) actually would have less rise than assault rifles constructed with lighter composite materials (but of course much easier to haul across the battlefield).

It may be obvious that I don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm willing to learn

If this IS true, this could just by default create this effect too.

 

[yurch]

Note to self: fix the damn shrapnel.
So many things to do...