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XM8 lightweight assault rifle model in progress

Discussion in 'Infiltration Development' started by MP_Duke, Feb 21, 2004.

  1. Meplat

    Meplat Chock full-o-useless information

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    1-In what way is the XM8's "bulk" unrealistic? I'll play dumb for a bit, so tell me why.

    2- Short of a handful of individuals in here, does anyone know what an ACTUAL "loadout" feels like? So what basis is used to determine that "the bulk" is wrong?

    3- I was going to have a third post, but this is evolving into a rant. Folks, IT'S A GAME. The people making the add ons do it for fun. Pissing in their cheerios over "bulk" and "I saw a picture of a picture in a bookstore and model looks wrong" is hardly encouragement. Consider that this game is built atop what is an already elderly engine. There is ONLY so much "realisim" it will produce. Enjoy it for what it is, a "realistic" (Note, this means "an attempt toward, not the acme of" realisim) first person shooter.

    meplat-
     
  2. DamienW

    DamienW I'm no stranger to sarcasm, sir

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    I don't see what the fuss is all about. Duke's rifle looks nice (for those into the whole sci-fi "rifle of teh future !!!" thing, plays cool, has recoil like all other 5.56s, kills in two shots like all other 5.56's, and its zoom is more cumbersome and has a smaller FOV than the specialized ACOg, making it perfectly balanced. It has a 30 round mag like all other 5.56s. Its future attachments, its aimpoint, will be the features that set it apart, and nothing more. No super-weapon that kills in one shot, has crazy ballistics and a C-mag. I say : damn good job, Duke. Keep up the good work.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2004
  3. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

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    mmm that's strange... I did a SEARCH for bulk and it didn't turn anything out regarding metric system or SI system. Maybe you'd like to check again bulk in the dictionnary.

    Personally, I think it's better to have a qualitative unit representing bulk then having separate weight and volume units. The former is more significant and quicker to deal with when creating a loadout. It's only intuitive. Now on bulk values, one might dissagre, but until I have the chance to run around the bloc a few times with any of the weapons in INF, it's not my place to criticize their bulk values because, obviously, someone knows better then I do.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2004
  4. sir_edmond

    sir_edmond In my own world

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    Its not, i should clarify that if the team chose to use the metric which they didnt they could
     
  5. MP_Duke

    MP_Duke Banned

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    New beta 04.03.30 3:08 PM

    Download 04.03.30 3:08 PM

    -Changed gun firing sound
    -Modified scoped bobbing, walking scoped allowed again
    -Added bNoScoping variable in dukeXM8.ini (set to True to disable scoping)
     
  6. Hurin

    Hurin -SkillZ

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    It shouldnt be hard to figure out in which ways bulk is unrealistic.

    Just look up the weight of weapons with out ammo clips online from an official source. A.k.a HK-usa.com

    The just compare the proportions of the weapons real weights to the weapons bulk weights. And im not talking about it being rounded of, im talking about the weight being up to 3 bulk points of for more then a single weapon within the game.
     
  7. Hurin

    Hurin -SkillZ

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    Oh and one more thing i forgot to rite about.

    Recoil-
    The amount of recoil from a gun is dependent and directly proportionate to the bullet velocity when leaving the gun, and nothing else. THe fromula for the amount of speed passed on to the shooter being bullet speed X bullet mass / persons weight
     
  8. sir_edmond

    sir_edmond In my own world

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    Duke, I didnt know the USA had a movement canceling scope. ;)
     
  9. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    As said many times before, bulk is not a measurement of weight. A large cardboard box that weighs 1 pound is far more akward than a steel ball that weighs ten. If this cardboard box was 1 'bulk' in game, that would mean that a player could somehow take fourty five large cardboard boxes around with him with ease.

    I think not.

    Forces also take into acount TIME. A recoil felt over time using a clever spring system is going to be much less disruptive to the user.
    You aren't taking into account the weapon's wieght, length, recoil pivot point when held against the shoulder, any possiblity of a muzzle brake, ect.

    The concept of 'Recoil' in terms of gameplay is a disruptive factor to aiming successive shots. If you want to do this accurately and fairly, you are going to have to take a whole lot more into account than just the weight and speed of the bullet.
     
  10. DamienW

    DamienW I'm no stranger to sarcasm, sir

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    On Duke's latest release : nice. The .ini parameter will be welcome for those people i know of that are already crying that the XM8 is "uber" and whatnot :D
    However, since the last time, the scope is now perfectly steady, even when you're standing. I take it it's an error.
    As for recoil, i took it to the shooting range with a FAMAS+Acog, and i get similar results with both weapons, wich is fair enough in my book.
     
  11. Hurin

    Hurin -SkillZ

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    Yes i agree recoil does have one more factor to take into account period of recoil over time. For example the G11 gun actually manages to fire 3 shots before recoil is felt fue to its high 2000 rpm rate of fire. However as long as we assume that all weapons stocks transfer recoil at thye same rate and that there arent any kninds of recoil delaying devices. It is offcourse neecesary to check all guns for such possibilities. Yet i am unaware of such a device existing in which case as long as we assume that all stocks are held at the same angle by the person, and we take into account bullet velocity of the gun and bullet mass, a much clearer picture of recoil will take into effect.


    Back to the bulk question here is an example the Sig 551 has a total lentgh of 833mm and a weigth of 3.3kg without the magazine.
    While the XM8 which has the same bulk has total length 838mm and weight of 2.6kg.
    Is this really a balanced bulk system?

    If we go back to the recoil i have a much bigger complaint Which i have posted about before the post follows:


    Most likely the biggest issue in realism and problem in all of infiltration is the unrealistic recoil effect. Although the bulks of weapons are disproportionate and some weapons are unbalanced, this is all livable. Yet the recoil effect unbalances the whole game in favor of 3-round burts and fulll auto modes.

    The problem being that inreality, as proven by tests once a soldier fires a 30round burst and the first bullet and misses his next 2 bullets are more and more likely to miss. Why? Because in Infiltration the recoil goes straight up, while in real life it tends to go staright up and to the left or right. This is apparently noticable in guns like the minimi and the sig . And most of all in the new XM8, in all of theese cases one can effectively aim below the persons body hold down the trigger and still hit, something extramely unlikely in real life.
    This overpowers certain weapons like the new XM8. The fact that the more bullets fired since the first one and then the less chance of hitting a traget a person has is a proven fact. The G11 gun was actually specifical mad eto deal with such a proble by delaying recoil.
     
  12. Meplat

    Meplat Chock full-o-useless information

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    "Recoil-
    The amount of recoil from a gun is dependent and directly proportionate to the bullet velocity when leaving the gun, and nothing else. THe fromula for the amount of speed passed on to the shooter being bullet speed X bullet mass / persons weight"


    Step AWAY from the physics textbook. Go SHOOTING instead of reading about it. Approach the firing of most shoulder mounted automatic weapons this way, and you'll hit a lot of sky.

    Meplat
     
  13. Hurin

    Hurin -SkillZ

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    Yes i agree recoil does have one more factor to take into account period of recoil over time. For example the G11 gun actually manages to fire 3 shots before recoil is felt fue to its high 2000 rpm rate of fire. However as long as we assume that all weapons stocks transfer recoil at thye same rate and that there arent any kninds of recoil delaying devices. It is offcourse neecesary to check all guns for such possibilities. Yet i am unaware of such a device existing in which case as long as we assume that all stocks are held at the same angle by the person, and we take into account bullet velocity of the gun and bullet mass, a much clearer picture of recoil will take into effect.


    Back to the bulk question here is an example the Sig 551 has a total lentgh of 833mm and a weigth of 3.3kg without the magazine.
    While the XM8 which has the same bulk has total length 838mm and weight of 2.6kg.
    Is this really a balanced bulk system?

    If we go back to the recoil i have a much bigger complaint Which i have posted about before the post follows:


    Most likely the biggest issue in realism and problem in all of infiltration is the unrealistic recoil effect. Although the bulks of weapons are disproportionate and some weapons are unbalanced, this is all livable. Yet the recoil effect unbalances the whole game in favor of 3-round burts and fulll auto modes.

    The problem being that inreality, as proven by tests once a soldier fires a 30round burst and the first bullet and misses his next 2 bullets are more and more likely to miss. Why? Because in Infiltration the recoil goes straight up, while in real life it tends to go staright up and to the left or right. This is apparently noticable in guns like the minimi and the sig . And most of all in the new XM8, in all of theese cases one can effectively aim below the persons body hold down the trigger and still hit, something extramely unlikely in real life.
    This overpowers certain weapons like the new XM8. The fact that the more bullets fired since the first one and then the less chance of hitting a traget a person has is a proven fact. The G11 gun was actually specifical mad eto deal with such a proble by delaying recoil.


    Further REcoil problems can be posted on the thread :
    Poorly developed recoil effect.
     
  14. Hurin

    Hurin -SkillZ

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    Sry for the xtra post something got messed up.

    As for the formula i listed.
    bullet mass X bullet speed / Body weight
    if you were in space that would be your speed.
    It doesnt tell you how much recoil you receive but it gives you proportion.
    So if you know the MP5 has a certain recoil. You can figure out the recoil of all the other guns.
     
  15. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

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    Speaking of that thread... i'M still waiting for you explanation on what makes you thing the recoil is badly modeled.

    For bulk, you obviously didn't understand that it's a mystical value representing the akward of the piece of equipement. That why, for exemple, an M16A4 with a carying handle would have a lower bulk then the exact same M16A4 without the carying handle. It doesn't weight less or has a lesser volume (in fact it's the contrary). But it's easyer to carry around because of the handle... thus the lower bulk value. Same goes to M16A2 vs M16A2 with Acog. The bulk difference isn'T because of the little weight addition of the ACOG, but because it make the rifle more difficult to carry and manipulate since the acog is mounted on the handle.

    Just get it into your heads... Bulk CANNOT be reprensented by a simple equation using weight and volume. It simply represents how you "feel" when having that piece of equipement in you hands.
     
  16. Hurin

    Hurin -SkillZ

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    First of all mystical values are great and all, there should be ways to actually tell the diffrence. Why would a carrying handle even be helpuful in INF since you never carry the gun using it.
    So about theese so called mystical values cant someone at least write a guide on how to judge bulk for weapons.

    AS for the recoil thread, i posted on it about half an hour ago so go and look.
     
  17. Meplat

    Meplat Chock full-o-useless information

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    Hurin- So, exactily how are you going to simulate/model/generate the spread of bodytypes, skill levels, and disciplines that would negate this inaccurate recoil effect?
    Make every firearm in the game react as if an experienced "expert" were firing it?

    (RANT ON)

    Sure. Do that. You'll have EVERYONE hopping and bopping in grand CS style, waving MINIMI's about like rigid peni.

    The "bulk" is to prevent someone from creating a loadout where they have "alphabet soup" hanging off of them, being a sniper one moment, then a grenadier the next. It's not perfect. Waah. The challenge is to play the damn game within the limitations established.

    The MINIMI recoils wrong, and has TWO fire rates.
    the P90 has odd ballistics, and the optics obscure masses of landscape.
    the SOCOM is basically ineffective, and the sights are off.
    the Shottie gets stuck to walls, and lacks slugs.
    the .50's dont blow through walls and bots "like for real".
    The MP5's irons are off.

    There are dozens of posts pointing out the above flaws. I did'nt even have to think hard to remember them.

    There are a handful where actual fixes are offered.

    Pardon me. I'm going back to playing this "flawed" game now. If I wanted "Realisim" I'd reenlist.
    (END RANT)
     
  18. MP_Duke

    MP_Duke Banned

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    It's reduced, but not perfectly steady. EDIT - err, ya it is too much though hmm. Bah i'll look at it tomorrow...
    I had to reduce it to get rid of the eye sight moving outside the scope FOV and clipping portions of the gun in cases of standing-crouching and vice versa transitions.

    Hurin, give it a rest. Recoil has been discussed to death and has never been resolved. We are stubborn sons of bitches. I have no plans on changing the recoil at this point and will prolly move on to other things, such as another weapon or what-not. Have fun, I pray for you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2004
  19. Meplat

    Meplat Chock full-o-useless information

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    "I have no plans on changing the recoil at this point and will prolly move on to other things, such as another weapon or what-not."


    YAAYYY!

    Meplat-
     
  20. Vega-don

    Vega-don arreté pour detention de tomate prohibée

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    please explain me how the minimi recoil is wrong, i think it has to much recoil now , but im not sure..

    i would like to see a mutator for this
     

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