US Immigration

[{GD}Odie3]

Okay, how about a debate to bring in Almost back to OT?

So, I live in a Texas and among our population we have some [or rather a lot] of illegal Latin's. While in my part of the US I am speaking about Latin's my post is not about Latin's but Immigration. I only speak of Latin's directly because that is what I know about [have not seen illegal Germans, Russians, Chinese, etc around but they may very well be around my parts].

First thing that pisses me off, Pre-K. I am a father of three [two of which are under 5 years old] and I am middle class [lower part of that area] and since my wages are deemed to high my kids can not get into Public Pre-K. If I wanted my kids to get a head start I would have to pay for private school, which I am doing "just" good enough to make my house/car/utilities/food costs. Yet, if my kid did not speak English [say only spoke Spanish] she would get in with no issues. WTF? My taxes go to a child that can not speak English to go to Pre-K, yet mine can not? Now I understand this does not mean the child and/or parents are illegal but with a class of 20 kids and over half can not speak English at all, chances are some are illegal [my wife was a Sub_Teacher in one of the Pre-K classes].

Second thing that pisses me off, "illegal's take jobs that Americans do not want". BS! My brother got a job working for a Landscaping company and worked is ass off. Then one day the owner said he would have to take cut in pay or be replaced. He could not take the cut in pay since how would he pay his bills? So, he was in fact replaced by a Latin that lived with 6 other Latin Males - they where [perhaps still are] illegal's. So, in my view illegal's do not take jobs Americans do not want, they steal the jobs by under-cutting a proper wage [and allowing owners of companies to profit more]. Luckily my brother was able to relocate and find a job - but he did have to relocate.

Last thing, I had a very good friend that worked at my last company, he was Mexican but also held a Canadian passport [he spoke Spanish, English and French]. He was in the country on a H1-B Visa and tried a number of years to become a US citizen [he was married with one child]. However, after 4 years our company closed and since he was no longer employed he had to go back to Mexico. WTF, current illegal's are going to get the chance to become Legal? I say Hell no - come in just like my buddy did and do it right. If it does not work out, then go back home. He did [which is sad] so can they.

1. If there are kids comming into public school that can not speak English, their family should be completely checked out. If the parents are not properly in the US - deport them [kids and all]. Being illegal and have a child in the US does not make you or the child a US citizen

2. If you employ illegal's your company should be taken away and you as a owner should not be allowed to open any other company for a period of time.

3. I have no issues with making it somewhat easier to become a US citizen, if you come into the US properly. If you have a education and can contribute to the US [speaking Spanish only and mowing yards does not count] then it should not be difficult to become a US citizen.

 

[cracwhore]

Being illegal and having a child in the US does not make you or the child a US citizen

Actually, it does makes the child a U.S. Citizen, by law. Either you don't know your own laws, or you're playing the part of the 'Merican.

'If you don't like it, then you can giiiiiiiit out!

As for 'jobs that Americans don't want' - that's mostly true, if you don't count cooking, washing dishes, the 'janitorial arts' or landscaping.

Thought about fruit picking? Think you or your fellow white men would like to stand out in the blazing sun, picking fruit for $2/hr? Mexicans are the new Oakies in that regard.

It sucks about your kids and school. It's unfair and most assuredly, absurd. I don't agree with that at all, but I must admit, I'm not surprised. That's the point of the P.C. laws though. A P.C. culture never has to make sense. It just has to cater to 'minorities'. That's the beauty of it.

Other than that, I support Mexicans that come into this country to cook me delicious foods, or that pick fruit so I don't have to. Who cares if they're illegal or not?

What? Are you upset that most of the money they make goes to their families in Mexico?

Guess where all of the money the multi-billion-dollar 'American' corporations make goes...

Red China.

That, or they embezzle.


And guess what they're doing?

The same fucking thing!

Instead of complaining about somebody taking away the ever-so-important 'lawn-mowing' jobs that maybe thirteen Americans depend on - why not complain about the American Automotive industry that outsources all of their plant jobs. You know, the jobs that used to include benefits, paid decently, supported the economy of entire cities and made those companies billions upon billions of dollars.

The 'same shit, different asshole' rule applies here, as it usually applies everywhere.



edit: typo

 

[{GD}Odie3]

Actually, it does makes the child a U.S. Citizen, by law. Either you don't know your own laws, or you're playing the part of the 'Merican.

Yes, I know about "Anchor Babies" and it's not right and that law should be prompty changed. I should have stated that in the first place.

As for 'jobs that Americans don't want' - that's mostly true, if you don't count cooking, washing dishes, the 'janitorial arts' or landscaping.

Thought about fruit picking? Think you or your fellow white men would like to stand out in the blazing sun, picking fruit for $2/hr? Mexicans are the new Oakies in that regard.

No, they get the jobs becuase they live like rats in a one room apartments - which should be illegal. They get those jobs because normal US Citizens could not live on the wage. My brother was able to before he was under cut, so the owner could profit more. So, in a lot of cases you end up with US Citizens on Welfare - because it pays more. So, we get illegals that do not pay taxes [but yet still get public services] and US Citizens that drain services. While I can not get my girls into Pre-K.

What? Are you upset that most of the money they make goes to their families in Mexico?

I do not care where a person is sending their money - as long as it has been properly taxed [like my paycheck].

As for the rest [Red China/Out Sourcing] that is a different topic! However, I hate it too and hope it would be stopped in someway. Yet I am taking about something else - that is "illegals" - which means they are breaking the law.

 

[cracwhore]

What's the point of this debate?

Just go watch 'Soylent Green'. That's where we're headed...

 

[anaemic]

so far it seems like everything that pisses you off about illigal immigrants, are the same things that piss the illegal immigrants off.

if your kid cant go to a school but a spanish speaker can. is that the fault of the immigrant worker or the fault of some idiot in your local government who refuses to treat them as equals ?

if an employer tells you to accept illegal pay, or hours or he will replace you with a worker (who has no choice but to work for pennies). is that the illigal immigrants fault? or your employers? or the dickasses like you who blame the wrong people for your troubles, and end up getting the wrong people persecuted?

if youd spend ten minutes being angry at the fact companies get away with illigaly hiring illegal workers for illegal wages and extortionate hours. then maybe youd have a fair job market to compete on. but basically if you arent willing to work hard on a level playing field against somone else, you dont deserve the work or the income.

 

[yurch]

It sounds like most of these problems would be solved by minimum wage and a very heavy crackdown on under-the-table payments. The sole reason to hire illegal immigrants seems to be the fact you can pay them much less, either through thier ignorance of wage laws or through the threat of exportation. If you make it more expensive for employers to do so through fines and/or jailtime, then most of this will sort itself out.

The immigrants are victims of all of this rather than "the enemy". You can't walk right into the country and get welfare - they may get some public services but they do need to work to survive. If that dries up they have little incentive to come here outside the system.

Of course, this is obviously ignored when politicians are trying to use immigration as an election issue, which in this case is actually quite a poor one. I'm sure whoever's endorsing the politicians don't want their cheap labor with little legal ramification to go away. The current laws are probably just an empty gesture to satisfy all the scaremongering that has been recently been taking place. It's a problem that has continued for decades, there's nothing different about it now.

 

[randomas]

What's Soylent green?

In Italy there's a big debate about immigration and frankly there are some of the most ridiculous laws and devices in place concentration ...OOooops relocation camps included ...

Truth is the local publicly educated people who have watched too much tv and have inordinately high expectancy of life standards are not going to take on humiliating jobs. I mean care of the elderly, Nannys, cleaners etc.

Next birth rate, deathrate ratio, the west rarely gets a positive value (greater than 1) which means nobody's paying for our pensions the way we're paying for our parents. Immigration helps they also tend to be more prolific.

The problem is not immigration which is direly needed, but illegal immigration. People who work should be granted visas PERIOD. The problem with this is that businesses that hire illegal immigrants or simply black market jobs (untaxed) wouldn't be able to spend so little on wages.

If it were easier to obtain visas there would be less illegal immigration and less black market labour. I think cracking down on black market labour and being more liberal with visas (criminal activity being a different option) is a good start.

Also offering jobs directly in the country where immigration comes from so people come in already having a job is good solution, but there needs to be infrastructure in place to do so.

In Italy we have criminal immigration from ex soviet country and white slave trade that ends up in underage prostitution with drug trade, now THAT is a problem.

Another issue is the safeguard of culture. In the US (don't live there don't know this is just my opinion) this is less of an issue because it's origins as a country is a melting pot of different peoples.
Here there's a debate about safeguarding catholic culture against the "Islamic invasion" and the affirmation of the religious impartiality of the state, but it's all a reactionary mess if you ask me.

I hope i didn't mess this up too much and left it ina comprehensible state.

 

[yurch]

What's Soylent green?

A 1973 Charlton Heston movie where unwanted people were, erm, "used" to fix food shortages.

Although, I haven't seen it.

 

[{GD}Odie3]

so far it seems like everything that pisses you off about illigal immigrants, are the same things that piss the illegal immigrants off.

Yes, because they are illegals - period. If the are not I have zero issues.

if your kid cant go to a school but a spanish speaker can. is that the fault of the immigrant worker or the fault of some idiot in your local government who refuses to treat them as equals ?

Yes because of the stupid ass illegal parents are here and I'm paying for their illegal child or Anchor babby [which in my book they are illegal too]. Illegals are not equal - they are law breakers and deserve nothing not even hosptial care.

if an employer tells you to accept illegal pay, or hours or he will replace you with a worker (who has no choice but to work for pennies). is that the illigal immigrants fault? or your employers? or the dickasses like you who blame the wrong people for your troubles, and end up getting the wrong people persecuted?

if youd spend ten minutes being angry at the fact companies get away with illigaly hiring illegal workers for illegal wages and extortionate hours. then maybe youd have a fair job market to compete on. but basically if you arent willing to work hard on a level playing field against somone else, you dont deserve the work or the income.

You butthead, did you not see this part of my post?

2. If you employ illegal's your company should be taken away and you as a owner should not be allowed to open any other company for a period of time.

As for jail time - I am for that too for the owner! Fry the owners ass and throw the illegal over the border.

 

[{GD}Odie3]

I would like to be clear that I have NO issues with Legal Immigration! If every one of the illegals left and entered into the US with proper papers I would be content.

I also believe it should be easier for people outside the country to enter into the US legally.

 

[TheShiningWizard]

I also believe it should be easier for people outside the country to enter into the US legally.

Today's Mallard Fillmore commented on this.

 

[randomas]

A 1973 Charlton Heston movie where unwanted people were, erm, "used" to fix food shortages.

Although, I haven't seen it.

A modest proposal revisited?


Odie I think your views are a little extreme. Health care is even supplied to prisoners of war ...

Anchor babies are a problem in somuch as they permit people that already have a job and contribute to the economy to stay in a country and keep contributing even though they're given verry little rights in return. Oh and they raise the birthrate!

You can only be harsh against illegal immigration when you have infrastructure and dispositions that adequately take care off and incurage legal immigration.

 

[5eleven]

I don't believe any immigrant in any country should be forced to learn the native language. Having said that, I don't think that the immigrantee should be forced into accomodating the foreign language for purposes of daily business or education. My view is that the host country selects the language, if you don't want to learn it, don't expect to function normally in the society. Yay Quebec!

I went to a school for work in New Mexico over the winter. It was my first trip really out west, and my first trip that close to the border. Spent time in El Paso, TX as well as in a really small town about 10 miles north of the border in NM, deep in the middle of the desert.

The first thing that I noticed is that I could hardly find an English speaking radio station, much less something that catered to my choice in music. (I thank corporate radio for about 90% of that - catering to the market). Wal-Mart had signs on products in Spanish only. How American.

However, one of the instructors, a former spook for the government, and also previously employed by DEA and Border Patrol happened to be a rancher across the NM border in Arizona. His view was this: Ranchers, which is pretty much all that exists in that area, would be incredibly happy if the illegal immigration was stemmed. He said that tourist areas and border business though, doesn't want it enforced.

He told me that years ago it wasn't as much of a problem. A rancher would wake up in the morning to go out and find an illegal raking their yard, or doing odd jobs and only asking for food and water in return. He said that the current version of border-crossers are different. They will lay in wait for a rancher to leave home and then burglarize the house, or open up wells or irrigation lines for water, leaving them open to spill out thousands of gallons of water - a necessity (and not a cheap prospect) for ranchers.

This leads me to my issue beyond the social arguments.

Even before 9/11, illegal immigrants were a problem. Since 9/11, when the government tells us to wrap our homes in duct tape and leak media stories about how secure we are because the country hasn't been attacked again, the Prez not only does nothing about shoring up the borders, but actually went out on the campaign trail encouraging amnesty. What?

Look, I'm not opposed to anyone coming in this country, as long as they use the front door, I get a chance to give them a once-over, and they knock first.

I don't know what it's like now, but I can tell you in past years, I experienced one of those talked about stories, where Immigration and Naturalization refused to pickup illegals for hearings or deportation, and told us to give them a court date. The guy I picked up was a stow-away from Haiti on a ship and was living underneath a railroad bridge. He was harassing people that passed him by, and I think he was slightly deranged. He actually told me that I couldn't arrest him for trespassing because I would be violating his rights. Violating his rights? What rights exactly did he have? Anyway, after a myriad of calls to the federal government for help, and realizing that he would disappear if arrested and released, we drove him to the next nearest town, gave him five bucks, a half a pack of menthol cigarettes and pointed east. "Nueva York" I said, and he was on his way.

Think of this: If arrested, he would have a court appearance, plead not guilty, be released and abscond. No problem, right? Wrong. If he didn't appear again, a warrant would be issued and when picked up in the next town, he would be returned and he sure as hell would stick around until arrested again. Vicious cycle, and maybe selfish, but it made more sense for our community to make him someone else's problem.

I heard tonight on the radio that 10% of Mexico's citizens are here illegally. And they are protesting use of National Guard troops at the border. (Well, I am too, a waste and Posse Comitatus rings a bell)

Anyway, I shall take a break, read more and write more later.

EDIT: Additions.

Another point: Odie mentioned the living conditions of some of these people and working low pay jobs:

This is absolutely not racist, in the slightest. It's just a fact: It's partially a cultural thing, partially smart thinking. Illegals have a tendency to live in low-income housing and areas and live in larger groups. Our low-income areas aren't much different than what they are used to in Mexico, and it's a lot cheaper to live with four others than by yourself. IMO, this feeds a reason why Mexico doesn't want the tide stemmed, it pumps a lot of money back into the Mexican economy.

It has been my experience here that illegals will come and work during the growing season at a local produce processing plant, live in groups, not spend much money at all, and save it for a return trip to Mexico in the fall. And they will take with them large sums of money to take to their families.

(Interestingly, this causes a problem as well when they are profiled by the police, travelling major interstates in groups of two or more hispanic males, with large sums of cash that the police frequently attempt to, and do seize, incorrectly correlating all of these factors into the "it must be a drug deal somewhere" category.)

Believe me, we deal with them all the time, these are just some of the things that they do. Quite frankly, when we catch them on a traffic violation, 9 times out of 10 they don't have a driver's license, 4 out of 10 times they have the wrong tags on the vehicle that they are driving. They don't understand that a license plate stays on one vehicle, and that they have to be renewed. And 10 times out of 10, we point them back to whence they came, because it just isn't worth messing with, for the reasons I already outlined.

Hey, whatever happened to the Mariel Boat Lifts and the thousands of Cuban refugees, whoops, illegals that came to Florida and lived in for lack of a better word, internment camps in the eighties? Amnesty, amnesty, uh-oh, riots, ummmm, disappear from the news screen.

And who in the hell says that these are all work seeking good joe's crossing the border? Who the hell says that they are all from Mexico? Ever hear of MS-13? If I'm hearing on the mainstream news that the borders are porous and enforcement is non-existent, I'm sure that criminals, terrorists, and foreign governments have known for awhile.

I'm sure I'll write more, but my thoughts: Seal the borders. Stop illegal immigration. Streamline the process for legal immigration/thoroughly check out their background, and if they pass, let 'em in.

 

[mat69]

I'm just interested and too lazy to inform myself, but how many people are securing the south border of the US?

In Austria the army is securing the border to the east (the countries that are not members of the Schengen-agreement) with constantly around 2200 people for 470km. That maybe sounds few, but on some regions it is hard to cross the border by nature (open areas that are easy to controll with IR-vision) e.g. one platoon secured 35 km, while in other areas a whole platoon secured less than 5 km. And those soldiers get around 2000-5000 illegals per year, many still pass because the soldiers there are lazy conscripts.
So I'd be interested if the men per kilometer ratio is nearly the same in the US or not.

 

[geogob]

My view is that the host country selects the language, if you don't want to learn it, don't expect to function normally in the society. Yay Quebec!

Just a point. Canada has two official languages, French and English... of which French was spoken way before English... Acutally French was the first European language spoken in North America. So it's not really a question of people who came here and didn't change their language to the local official one, but rather people who came here and imposed their language. Not really the same issue. Actually there's not issue as english isn't really imposed either as, like I said, there are two official languages.

 

[keihaswarrior]

1. Immigration should be free and very easy. The harder immigration is, the more people will immigrate illegally. simple logic there.

2. Immigrants and their descendants should have no access to government social services, including welfare, Social Security, health care, business subsidies, and the public schools. TINFL (there is no free lunch)

-----------------------
Free and open immigration is a good thing overall. It is also a core principle on which this country was founded. Thomas Jefferson said, "the natural right which all men have of relinquishing the country in which birth or other accident may have thrown them, and seeking subsistence and happiness wheresoever they may be able, and hope to find them."

Immigrants do not 'steal' jobs from Americans. They in fact create jobs in several ways:
1) They increase demand for goods and services through their consumption.
2) They fill gaps in the labor markets, producing subsidiary jobs for Americans.
3) Low-wage immigrants enable some threatened American businesses to survive competition from low-wage businesses abroad

A study by economists Richard Vedder and Lowell Galloway of Ohio University and Stephen Moore of the Cato Institute found that states with the highest rates of immigration during the 1980s, also had the highest rates of economic growth and lowest rates of unemployment.

 

[Black.cat]

Here's my 2 cents:

Most illegals come here for one reason only, JOBS, sure the jobs aren't the best or the most well payed, but its a job none the less. They simply want to provide for they're families and if that means sneaky into a country to work to provide food or clothing for they're familes then that's want "they" should do. Sure it's wrong and illegal...but ask yourself this...what wouldn't you do for your family? Now I'm sure some of you will say do it the right and legal way, but how long does that take? few months maybe, more like a few years. Now most human can't survive very long with out food. Now my point is "only" based on providing money to take care of they're loved ones, now if "illegals" are coming to the USA for other reason, ie... crime, terrorist, drug trafficing etc. then get them the hell outta here. We have enough of that BS to deal with. It's easy to criticized "illegals" for not doing it the right way, but imagine being born in a country were most of the population is living in poor conditions. Most human's would do anything to better they're life. By "anything" I dont mean stealing or anyting horrible, I mean simply crossing the border to wealthy country that has jobs that your native coutry didn't....they key topic is "Doing anything to better the life of your family" in by doing that You and I must provide money. This is all it boils down to what it has been for many years "MONEY". and security for our nation.

 

[5eleven]

Just a point. Canada has two official languages, French and English... of which French was spoken way before English... Acutally French was the first European language spoken in North America. So it's not really a question of people who came here and didn't change their language to the local official one, but rather people who came here and imposed their language. Not really the same issue. Actually there's not issue as english isn't really imposed either as, like I said, there are two official languages.

Actually, in my opinion, it is the same issue. Whether the Canadian government chooses to endorse a "2 language rule" is moot for my point. Even with two official languages, isn't there still internal turmoil in Canada over the issue? Wasn't there a movement to actually secede, and weren't there issues trying to force French-Canada to adopt English?

It was my experience that French speakers in Canada are very passionate about the issue. AND, I took a picture of the first stop sign that I ever saw that said "ARRET". I even went to a Sears store that looked like it was in an old house in Gracefield for a fishing license, and after listening to French for ten minutes, the clerk reluctantly spoke to me in English so that I could get a license.

 

[Harrm]

instead of a fence we should build a pungee pit between the US and mexico because that would be cooler. vote ron paul (do not for vote for ron paul).

 

[tomcat ha]

the solution is as simple as its brutal. kill the entire human race.