Unofficial technical weapon question forum.

[Gholam]

Because very often, the extra range benefit of a full-lenght rifle is not needed, but the convenience of a shorter weapon is very handy - carry a full-lenght M16A1 for a few months full-time, then switch to an M4 and you'll see the difference

 

[spm1138]

Originally posted by Gryphon
Silencer and suppressor are usually thought to be interchangable, although one source defines a silencer as a device which reduces the velocity of a bullet in addition to suppressing the muzzle blast, in order to eliminate sonic crack. A suppressor merely muffles the muzzle blast and subsonic ammunition needs to be used with it to avoid sonic crack.

A carbine is a short-barrelled rifle.

But would the MP5SD series not count as silenced by that standard?

Closed circuit ammo, or a supressed weapon firing subsonic pistol ammo from a locked bolt or a bolt action come closest to being silent from what I read.

I think the two were sorta interchangeable for a long time until teevee starting using the term silencer.

http://www.hirammaxim.com/HM_silencers.html

(I think I may have to change my name... Dr Shush has a niec ring to it )

 

[Gryphon]

Yes, the MP5SD series uses a silencer.

 

[Profe]

hurray for this thread
/me feasts on your weapon knowledge.

 

[Destructo6]

Suppressor = Silencer. No other way to say it. The shooting community prefers "Suppressor", probably because "Silencer" has been sensationalized by Hollywood and demonized by the powers that be.

The MP5SD is something of a special case. You don't have to use subsonic ammo, but changing bullet weights requires modifications, usually in the form of a locking piece.

As said, a carbine is a shorter version of a particular rifle. Keep in mind that carbine is relative. ie a Mauser Carbine is longer than a full size M16, but shorter than the 1890's full size Mauser.

 

[Scythe]

Im crying , but they are tears of joy. This thread for the most part has been much more than I hoped for.

 

[Gryphon]

No, a silencer is not the same as a suppressor. You NEVER fire subsonic ammunition out of an MP5SD, lest you turn your submachine gun into the world's most expensive .380. The barrel of the MP5SD is ported, which bleeds gas off the tail end of the bullet and slows it down to subsonic velocities. Using subsonic ammunition will give you a muzzle velocity somewhere around 700 fps. Both expansion (assuming you're using JHP) and functioning will be unreliable with this ammunition.

 

[owlofdoom]

manuverability.
id rather take a m9 than a barret into cqb.
also, weight is taken into consideration.

and the fact that it takes much less time to move a short barrel into place than a long barrel.

however, there are drawbacks to the shorter barrel,, but im sure gryphon will splain the entire thing in a short while.

EDIT: once again, ive missed a entire page. i swear, i should stop using heroin.

 

[Destructo6]

I read that little blurb about the MP5SD off HKPRO's site, too. Notice, I said you didn't need to use subsonic ammo with the SD, right?

If there's a difference between suppressors and silencers, how do you explain why Gemtech and other suppressor/silencer manufacturers use the term interchangeably?

 

[Goat Fucker]

As a few have pointed out earlier, a Carbine is a version of a weapon with a shorter barrel, the only purpose this serves is reduce weight and increase manuverabillity.

The drawbacks are less accuracy more recoil and reduced range, case cloused.

 

[Gholam]

Oh, by the way, on the question about the widest point of 5.56x45mm cartridge, here are it's dimensions (in millimeters):

 

[peachz]

Hell, here goes my question. Can someone detail the different types of ammunition used most common in today's military? Different specs, pictures, etc.

A link would work too.

 

["Sp!ke"]

One question on a little bit larger caliber guns: "120mm Smooth bore", what is Smooth bore? I found some explaniations, but they didnt make sense...

 

[Gholam]

Smoothbore means that the barrel is smooth, not rifled. This is used to achieve very high projectile velocities while avoiding barrel wear. Projectile stabilization is achieved either with fins, or with spiral grooves cut into projectile itself that spin it by releasing a portion of gases forward (to my knowledge, this system was never operationally used, but I know for a fact that it was developed and worked - my father was part of the team that made it during WW2).

Most common military ammunition... well, on small arms, here goes.

NATO:

9mm Para - also known as 9x19mm Luger/Parabellum. Based on 7.62x25mm round (.30 Mauser), originally developed for German Navy who weren't satisfied with a 7.62mm round in a handgun. Currently, it is standart NATO cartridge for handguns and submachineguns.

5.56x45mm NATO, also known as .223 Remington. Developed for the AR-15 (M16) rifle, currently it is standart NATO assault rifle cartridge. Original cartridge had a lead core copper jacketed FMJ bullet, US military designation M196. In early 80's, a new bullet was adopted, with a steel penetrator in nose, requiring a barrel with a heavier twist (1 turn in 7 inches, instead of 1 turn in 12 inches for the original), under US military designation M855. Despite the small size, the cartridge is extremely lethal, due to bullet being very unstable and tumbling when entering flesh. M196 cartridges are unmarked, M855 cartridges are marked with a green tip.

7.62x51mm NATO, also known as .308 Winchester. Based on the .300 Savage hunting cartridge, it replaced .30-06 in US military in 1953, but turned out to be too strong for controlled automatic fire in battle rifles (M14, FN FAL) and is now used mostly in sniper rifles and medium/general purpose machine guns.

12.7x99mm, also known as .50 BMG (Browing Machine Gun). Developed in early 1920's for the Browning M2 heavy machine gun which is still operational with many military forces around the world, it is also used in heavy anti-material sniper rifles.

Eastern Block:

9x18mm Makarov. Based on German 9x18mm Ultra round (though not interchangeable, as Makarov bullet is 0.2mm larger. Adopted, together with the PM (Pistolet Makarova) pistol as official Red Army sidearm in 1951. Since then, used in many other weapons, modernized several times.

7.62x39mm Intermediate. Developed in 1943, first used in SKS (Samozaryadnyi Karabon Simonova - Simonov Self-loading Carbine), then in AK (Avtomat Kalashnikova) and RPK (Ruchnoi Pulemet Kalashnikova) series. Officially, this cartridge has been replaced by 5.45x39mm, but in fact, it remains widely used.

5.45x39mm. Adopted in 1974, together with AK-74 and RPK-74 series. Basically, an attempt to follow Americans with their 5.56x45mm cartridge. Original bullets were very ineffective, leaving troops very dissatisfied with the caliber both in Afghanistan and Chechnya, though newer bullets with improved penetration are supposed to have solved that problem.

7.62x54mm Rifle. Originally developed in late 19th century for the Model 1891 Mosin rifle, modernized in 1908 with a new sharp-nosed bullet. Still in use by SVD (Snayperskaya Vintovka Dragunova - Dragunov Sniper Rifle), PK/PKT machine guns, GShG aircraft machine gun, and others.

12.7x109mm... sorry, but I know very little about this round. To my knowledge, it was originally developed for the DShK heavy machine gun in early 1930's, later used by NSV and Kord heavy machine guns, as well as some heavy sniper rifles.

14.5x114mm. Developed in early 1940's for anti-tank rifles, used by PTRD (Protivotankovoye Ruzhiyo Degtiariova - Degtiariov Anti-Tank Rifle) and PTRS rifles, later used by KPV/KPVT super-heavy machine gun, which is most often used as the primary weapon of BTR-70, BTR-80, and BRDM-2.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, this isn't very informative, but it's the best I could come up with on a short notice.

 

[Dupre]

Originally posted by Gholam
Smoothbore means that the barrel is smooth, not rifled. This is used to achieve very high projectile velocities while avoiding barrel wear. Projectile stabilization is achieved either with fins, or with spiral grooves cut into projectile itself that spin it by releasing a portion of gases forward (to my knowledge, this system was never operationally used, but I know for a fact that it was developed and worked - my father was part of the team that made it during WW2).

Rifled bore was discarded with the introduction of HEAT concept round. The gist of HEAT is a shaped explosion that focuses the hot gases into a plasma jet that burns its way into tank armor. The problem with rifled bore is that it spun the round so when the round detonated, the plasma jet also was affected. At least that is one of the reasons why M1A2 Abrams have a 120mm smoothbore.

 

[Gholam]

I'm not sure about that Dupre... HEAT shaped charge shells date back to WWII, yet, the British L7 105mm rifled gun was used well into 80s, including the original version of M1 Abrams. To my knowledge, transition to smoothbore actually marked the APFSDS kinetic energy rounds that require extremely high muzzle velocities to be effective, not HEAT.

 

[peachz]

Wow. Thanks, Gholam.

Does anyone know the effective range of a regular fragmentation grenade/round? I remeber reading about something saying a kill radius of 5m, casulty radius of up to 25m. Just wondering, because methinks INF fails to accurately represent the realistic ranges. (m67 headshots )

 

[FiringAimlessly]

Thanks for the post, Gholam. :tup:

Another question...

Why are Glock pistols so picky about new versus old brass?

 

[Technophile]

Please refine your question some.

What do you mean by "picky"?

"Old brass" as in reloads?

 

[FiringAimlessly]

Well, I keep hearing these dire warnings to people not to re-load old casings for use with a Glock...