The Prophet Muhammad
- Thread starter Jacks:Revenge
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If I can get hold of a good English translation again and have the time to pick through it again, sure. They can sometimes be hard to come by, because there's a widely held belief that it should never be translated into other languages and so those best fitted to translating the ancient text most accurately - esteemed and devout Muslim religious leaders, are generally unwilling to do so. Not to mention that words in Arabic can often have a broad range of meanings dependant on various subtle contexts.
Anyway, throwing that little snippet aside, one of the things that fascinates me the most about the Qu'ran is that it's almost solely responsible for the development of Arabic calligraphy; because images and embellishment of the book are considered idolatry, and very much to be avoided, great care was instead placed into developing the text itself as a form of artwork - resulting in the language we often see today
That's funny cause I have seen the Koran translated into many languages and looked at the few different ones in English and the translations are pretty close. Some used old English other more modern of what we speak today and there differences are minimal.
From what I have heard most people in other countries who have converted to Islam have done so via translated Korans.
Not everyone in the world is a fluent speaker of Arabic. If one were to adopt Islam it would be hard to do so if you don't know what you are reading, right?
I do know that Muslims believe the translation can not be altered or changed. Someone can't go in and say I am going delete this verse and that chapter. I think that what devout Muslims are against or worry about. I'd assume so long as the translations are pretty much as literal as possible across languages why would that be a bad thing?
Off topic: (yo dawg I heard you liked off topic stuff inside an off topic thread)
Okay I think I am going to take a break from this thread and go play some Red Faction: Guerrilla. Never had a chance to play it when it came out, I have heard heard good things though.
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I'm a bit skeptical of your claims. I'm certainly not well versed in Islam, but if I recall correctly the Quran was written after Muhammad's death, is organized from the largest portions to the shortest, and also contains some teachings from other prophets. It's very well possible that I'm wrong on all of these counts, but you might want to be a bit more specific than just saying that some of his later teachings are intolerant.
Yeah. Basically the Torah is the Old Testament. The Bible is the Old Testament with the New Testament. Then, the Koran disregards much of the New Testament (such as Jesus was just a regular prophet, not the son of God, and expands the role of Mary), and adds the story of Muhammad. But yeah, the events in the Old Testament are common in all three religions, but are least sacred in Islam.
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The idea is that Jesus died to pay for our sins. By accepting Him into your heart, you acknowledge the sacrifice made on your behalf. If you can't fess up that much, you don't get to reap the reward. Seems like an easy concept to understand, even if you don't want to believe it.
Firefly
United Kingdom is not a country.
Did you do that research or just copied it from somewhere else? I'd like to see where in Koran, what lines and passages say such things.
Edit: Did not see the links.
So those are legit and in the Koran but I did some searching on the web and found this:
http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/rizkhan/2010/03/201032584118951469.html
It seems that passages of violence are not exclusive to only Islam.
But thing is in this day and age it's true we don't see Christian and Jews using such verses to spread fear or terror. Only fundamentalist muslims using such verses in the Koran as an excuse for what they do.
Just trying show that sometimes things are taken out of context even if the lines do exist in religious texts such as the Bible, Koran, and Torah.
I am pretty sure none of the monotheistic texts start to finish just say go kill, and do other atrocious acts. Contexts of war and violence are there, but I am pretty sure those books also have verses based on good nature, helping those in need, seeking forgiveness, etc. Finding a few lines that do exist and saying this paints the entire picture of a faith I think is way of "jumping to conclusions"
I try to keep an open mind on most things (still have not grasped politics to say one thing or the other or present multiple views), but hey if one feels compelled to paint their own picture based on the information they find from the internet or news media outlets on any subject matter politics, religion, science, etc then that is their choice.
May not be the best example but for those of you more political than I am, may find it frustrating when someone says "hey all Republicans are war mongers" based on the events undertaken during the Bush administration. Or "Democrats are liberal hippies" or whatever only based on a handful of sources and quotes taken out of context or manipulated in a way to paint the picture you or some group of people want to showcase.
I am not pointing at anyone here just to be clear, more speaking in general of people who may have closed view on things. And I am not saying those lines don't exist in the Koran, they are there but I guess for the benefit of the doubt I am sure there is some context there that is missing and only those literal lines are used to show that look Islam is evil or does this or does that. On the flip side other people take similar lines way to seriously such as fundamentalists and act upon the words as is with out looking at the passage before or after that may have some rules or guidlines, in a way the fine print of what the hell does this line actually mean.
To conclude if you or anyone still wishes to believe Islam is evil or even religion as whole is useless, etc well it sucks that a person has a closed view on things but you can't change their view if they are adamant about it no matter how hard you try.
Or you could be moderate and just listen to all the sides. You don't have to agree with them but it does not hurt to listen, you just might learn something.
Now that I think about it, if I had the time I'd like to read the Bible, Torah, and Koran. See what's the same, what's different, just to be more open minded
Apologies if any of this sounded preachy or something...just that the subject of religion is interesting to talk about, for me at least as long as people don't get worked up about it and can discuss things with a cool head.
I'll try to refrain from posting long rants for the remainder of this thread.
Cheers
Edit: Did not see the links.
So those are legit and in the Koran but I did some searching on the web and found this:
http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/rizkhan/2010/03/201032584118951469.html
It seems that passages of violence are not exclusive to only Islam.
But thing is in this day and age it's true we don't see Christian and Jews using such verses to spread fear or terror. Only fundamentalist muslims using such verses in the Koran as an excuse for what they do.
Just trying show that sometimes things are taken out of context even if the lines do exist in religious texts such as the Bible, Koran, and Torah.
I am pretty sure none of the monotheistic texts start to finish just say go kill, and do other atrocious acts. Contexts of war and violence are there, but I am pretty sure those books also have verses based on good nature, helping those in need, seeking forgiveness, etc. Finding a few lines that do exist and saying this paints the entire picture of a faith I think is way of "jumping to conclusions"
I try to keep an open mind on most things (still have not grasped politics to say one thing or the other or present multiple views), but hey if one feels compelled to paint their own picture based on the information they find from the internet or news media outlets on any subject matter politics, religion, science, etc then that is their choice.
May not be the best example but for those of you more political than I am, may find it frustrating when someone says "hey all Republicans are war mongers" based on the events undertaken during the Bush administration. Or "Democrats are liberal hippies" or whatever only based on a handful of sources and quotes taken out of context or manipulated in a way to paint the picture you or some group of people want to showcase.
I am not pointing at anyone here just to be clear, more speaking in general of people who may have closed view on things. And I am not saying those lines don't exist in the Koran, they are there but I guess for the benefit of the doubt I am sure there is some context there that is missing and only those literal lines are used to show that look Islam is evil or does this or does that. On the flip side other people take similar lines way to seriously such as fundamentalists and act upon the words as is with out looking at the passage before or after that may have some rules or guidlines, in a way the fine print of what the hell does this line actually mean.
To conclude if you or anyone still wishes to believe Islam is evil or even religion as whole is useless, etc well it sucks that a person has a closed view on things but you can't change their view if they are adamant about it no matter how hard you try.
Or you could be moderate and just listen to all the sides. You don't have to agree with them but it does not hurt to listen, you just might learn something.
Now that I think about it, if I had the time I'd like to read the Bible, Torah, and Koran. See what's the same, what's different, just to be more open minded
Apologies if any of this sounded preachy or something...just that the subject of religion is interesting to talk about, for me at least as long as people don't get worked up about it and can discuss things with a cool head.
I'll try to refrain from posting long rants for the remainder of this thread.
Cheers
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Hadiths are frequently unreliable, further more a lot of Hadiths say that he married her to save her.(mohammed had like 3 brides of which 1 was more or less is real wife)
This is a partial quote from a verse which was when the then fledgeling Islamic state was fighting for its survival, so should be viewed in a war context.
The quoted verse itself only talks about the private parts. The verses about this basically say you have to dress properly. Which funnily through changes through the ages and cultures.
Another partial verse quote which was revealed at a time when some jews and christians attacked Mohammed. Mohammed actually had an alliance with several jewish tribes. Further more christians and jews are not considered disbelievers.
Slaves had a lot more rights than any slave has had in the west. As for this actual quote itself i cant say it has been misquoted because i dont know this verse very well.
It basically explains you can marry anyone except your relatives. Mohammed frequently married women in order to offer assistance to them as women barely had any rights in pre islamic arab society.
Sounds more like an average relationship with sex to me, as far as i know this kind of marriage is most common in shiite areas and is more or less comparable to a relationship.
Not even a hadith, so can be completely disregarded.
It is not recommended by any stretch and is only a last resort, further more the same verse says that men have to listen to their women and cant force their will blindly upon them. Regardless because we have many other possibilities in modern society beating your wife is not needed.
Once again this is a hadith not the qu'ran.
The world was a much crueller place back then, there was basically a situation where a some tribe continuously rebelled and thus he had to take severe action or be seen as a weak ruler
Doesnt the west glorify last stands? This should be viewed in that context. Some people basically consider the suicide attacks to be more or less equal to this. Suicide attacks are regardless a new phenomenon in islamic society. You are hard pressed to find anything like this pre 30 years ago.
Basically turning against islam in this case should be interpeted as turning against the basic principles of islam. Basically when you turn into a hitler or something similar.
Once again a hadith so not really relevant.
And there is a nice verse in the qu'ran which states that force in religion is wrong.
Again a hadith plus one must remember the times were not similar at all in those times. A 13 year old could be considered mature in some societies.
Islam allows polygamy but only if you can take care of all your wives.
I dont see how the quoted verse has anything to do with sex with minors, i just see talk about pregnancy there.
Lying is wrong unless its war.
Once again a Hadith, plus enslavement was not comparable to enslavement in the west.
Once again its a hadith.
Not even a hadith here.
This should be considered a base from which one has to build. Women had many more rights than in islamic society than basically any contemporary society. In the 16th century you could divorce from your husband if he couldnt get you enough coffee.
An other half mis-quote which is about war time.
Should be viewed in the context of the times. If you let people just walk over your religion, you would never gain respect and just be considered weak.
Islam basically sees any religion as more or less at least an approach to god. Christians and Jews and many more religions were considered believers of the book and were required to be treated with respect. In fact these people were exempt from military service.
The aforementioned tax that exempts them from service basically.
The quoted part says nothing about slavery.
A bad misquote. the qu'ran states that a forced conversion is a false one.
A partial mis quote about war time. Should be compared to psychological warfare.
So basically something from a hadith? not really something which can be used to base anything on by any stretch yet again.
So its considered yes if mohammed says its better if you do not?
Another hadith so yeah...
Is it true that I do not need to be a Muslim to get into Allah's heaven as long as I am a good person?
It's almost worthless to look at the sacred texts if you want to find out if a "believer" is violent or peaceful. If you take a hundred Muslims, most of them are going to be peace-loving people who love their wives but you might also catch some savage animals who want to blow up disbelievers. Still, all of them consider themselves true believers of the very same text. At this point, does it really matter what the text says?
It matters to the believers, obviously, but should it matter to us? Seems like it's a lot more important what a Muslim believes, rather than what's written in the text he believes in.
This goes in both directions. I'm sure you can find loads of incidents where the Koran is ass-backwards and although probably modern for its time, cruel and wrong for today. Doesn't mean Muslims just look for ways to discriminating their wives and forcing their believes on others. Likewise I'm sure you can find a lot of verses in the Koran that preach its believers to be kind and tolerant to their fellow man (and woman), but that doesn't change the fact that a bunch of towel-heads are out looking for American blood at this moment.
Scanning the Koran for bits and pieces one (doesn't) like(s) seems like a waste of time to me.
It matters to the believers, obviously, but should it matter to us? Seems like it's a lot more important what a Muslim believes, rather than what's written in the text he believes in.
This goes in both directions. I'm sure you can find loads of incidents where the Koran is ass-backwards and although probably modern for its time, cruel and wrong for today. Doesn't mean Muslims just look for ways to discriminating their wives and forcing their believes on others. Likewise I'm sure you can find a lot of verses in the Koran that preach its believers to be kind and tolerant to their fellow man (and woman), but that doesn't change the fact that a bunch of towel-heads are out looking for American blood at this moment.
Scanning the Koran for bits and pieces one (doesn't) like(s) seems like a waste of time to me.
The point is not to condemn a faith but such passages, beliefs and some current mainstream practices of those verses need to be evaluated and discussed on a huge level in the Muslim world and in Muslim circles. The organizations that try to do as much usually end up doing more harm than good and there are a ton of idiot Muslims as there are a ton of idiot Christians who are not helping things. If pointing out the bad verses gets Muslims discussing wtf is wrong in their religious community then great.
as with most ancient religious texts, the heart of the problem is that extremists and fundamentalists take it literally, and/or they don't realize that these writings were created for a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT time in human history; they aren't meant to be applied so directly onto current society.
you can find passages that deal with slavery and what sounds like child prostitution in nearly every major religious text. and that's because they are merely stories about that time in history, during which slavery was considered normal it was still common place for girls to marry young (because people didn't live as long).
we're talking ancient, relatively isolated, near-primitive cultures living centuries prior to the dawn of modern science and the global understanding of common humanity.
nowadays, people need to take all religious texts with a heavy grain of salt, but almost no one does this. I mean, look around, what other Bronze Age technologies or ideas do we cling to? what other ancient laws are still in place?
none... except religion.
you can find passages that deal with slavery and what sounds like child prostitution in nearly every major religious text. and that's because they are merely stories about that time in history, during which slavery was considered normal it was still common place for girls to marry young (because people didn't live as long).
we're talking ancient, relatively isolated, near-primitive cultures living centuries prior to the dawn of modern science and the global understanding of common humanity.
nowadays, people need to take all religious texts with a heavy grain of salt, but almost no one does this. I mean, look around, what other Bronze Age technologies or ideas do we cling to? what other ancient laws are still in place?
none... except religion.
hmmm...not cool. Spam? A joke... Which BU user made a new account.
Hmmmm...hardly surprising. Well, I guess that means the culling of both accounts! I'll get to it later (or soon). Hey, you people don't want beyondunreal to be nuked from orbit, do you???!!!
Kyllian
if (Driver == Bot.Pawn); bGTFO=True;
I saw the first picutre and went "wtf Jesus?"
Not sure if this one would be so bad, tho I suspect the divorce proceedings would be a bitch
Well, religion is ever changing, and religion today cant be really compared to the bronze age religions, but i see what you mean. The thing with the Qu'ran is that there are 1 billion ways to interpret it. There is a verse which more or less is about Mohammed seeing the sun set in a spring and people conclude that the earth is flat from that verse.
As a muslim am i not the one who should feel "offended"?
You know what I was just thinking about, maybe the same with Jesus, but do you think these guys used their position as game?
You know, to sleep with chicks?
You know, to sleep with chicks?